Two Problems needing addressing.

[Serving]

Greetings,

I am assuming that I need not quote scripture since this is such a hot topic for so long now.

I am also assuming that nobody has used these arguments of mine I am about to put forth, I've searched many times before on the net .. never seen these two points I'm about to share .. this might have changed in recent years? I don't know, been a couple of years since I've checked ..but I don't think so, other wise I'd likely have come across it by now? Or maybe not?

That being said, I humbly ask the moderator's that this post remain a stand alone post so these arguments of mine can at least get out there because I've never heard anybody use them before, other words .. new ammunition for the using and benefit of all parties involved. Anyways, my posts never stay "front page" for long anyway, so it'd likely roll over to page two soon enough. Thanks regardless.

Here we go ..

Here are two problems needing addressing.

PROBLEM 1:

What happens when the false prophet bursts onto the scene?
That "Little Horn" in Daniel?

He begins with his "wonderful words".
Not with the sword, but with his wonderful words.
What does that tell you?
It tells you that he wants to convince everybody to follow him, Christians included.He's not coming out swinging the sword just yet .. he's coming out talking.

So he starts with words .. very wonderful words.

Strong arguments, air tight logic .. well, strong & airtight to those who do not know the Lord, for every one else .. this guy knows what he's talking about.
And many  "Christians" & those sitting on the fence .. will fall.
They will fall because of his wonderful words, his arguments .. "And he shall wear down the saints" .."wear down" .. 
Now consider the saints being worn down in the context I have put forth .. 
Worn down is not the same language as "Put to death" now is it?
That, "Put to death" comes later .. but not that long later.

Not only that, consider something else here .. didn't God say that He would send "Strong Delusion for those who do not know the Lord but had pleasure in unrighteousness?"
When would be the time for those who loved pleasure over The Lord to receive strong delusion from God?
Well, to believe a lie .. one must first hear the lie, right?
And when will one hear the lie(s)?
Well, when that little horn appears with his wonderful words, right?

And when he starts speaking those wonderful words, who did God say would not be fooled?
Yep, those who follow the Lord.
So if those who follow AND know the Lord when this wicked man appears with his wonderful words .. those who know and follow the Lord BEFORE this wicked man appears were, by definition .. genuine followers of the Lord, right?

That being the case, WHY weren't these saints taken before this wicked man appeared because obviously and clearly .. these saints, by definition alone, are obviously pre-tribulation saints.

And what does the Lord tell us happens to those saints?
He says that .. they .. get .. put .. to .. death

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

PROBLEM 2:

Okay then ..

If that wicked man comes not only with his wonderful words but also with an added boost to his mission , being the strong delusion added on top of those wonderful words .. HOW on earth could countless saints who never really knew the Lord before this point, how on earth could they come to the Lord during this phase when they are hearing arguments so mind blowing to them that IF it were possible, even the elect would be deceived .. deceived not only because those word's were so wonderful & convincing, but deceived also because God sent strong delusion ADDED on top of those very powerful words the wicked one shall speak.

You see?
In this scenario, It will be impossible for tribulation saints to be anything other than pre tribulation saints.

This period is obviously God separating the wheat from the chaff for the final harvest.
Again, you have to be strong in the Lord before this wicked man even appears to have a chance of not being deceived .. again, by that definition alone .. these saints are/were obviously pre tribulation saints.

Houston, we have a problem.

I've never heard anybody bring this up before, so please brother's and sisters, if you see the conundrum this puts the pre tribulation lot in, feel free to use these arguments that need answering and get it "out there".

I've whipped this up on the spot to just get it out there at long, long last, I could have presented it better, it is what it is .. but I hope I did well enough to at least give pause to those who believe in pre trib rapture to consider what was said  ..  at least.

Thank you.
 

[Keras]

33 minutes ago, Serving said:

Houston, we have a problem.

No; we Christian peoples do not have a problem with the 'beast' - the 'little horn', or simply - the Anti-Christ man.   What you and most others seem unable to see, is how the Lords faithful peoples will gather in the holy Land and live in peace and prosperity. Ezekiel 34:11-16, +     Proved by how the Lord saves us from a huge attacking army from the North. Ezekiel 38-39, Joel 2:20

But there will come a time when that leader of the ungodly peoples will take control of Jerusalem and the holy Land. Daniel 7:25, Zephaniah 14:1-2a, Revelation 12:13 & 13:7.    Then; those who kept strong in their faith and kept the Covenant, Daniel 11-32, Rev 12:14, will be taken to a place of safety on earth for the 1260 day period of Satanic world control. They will be the main group which will be gathered when Jesus Returns. Matthew 24:30-31 

So, those who trust the Lord and keep faithful thru all that must happen, do not have to take the 'mark of the beast', or worship his image. Note; that those who do fail in some aspect of it all, are the ones who must remain, as Zechariah 14:2b & Revelation 12:17 tell us. 

 

[AdHoc]

16 hours ago, Serving said:

Greetings,

I am assuming that I need not quote scripture since this is such a hot topic for so long now.

I am also assuming that nobody has used these arguments of mine I am about to put forth, I've searched many times before on the net .. never seen these two points I'm about to share .. this might have changed in recent years? I don't know, been a couple of years since I've checked ..but I don't think so, other wise I'd likely have come across it by now? Or maybe not?

That being said, I humbly ask the moderator's that this post remain a stand alone post so these arguments of mine can at least get out there because I've never heard anybody use them before, other words .. new ammunition for the using and benefit of all parties involved. Anyways, my posts never stay "front page" for long anyway, so it'd likely roll over to page two soon enough. Thanks regardless.

Here we go ..

Here are two problems needing addressing.

PROBLEM 1:

What happens when the false prophet bursts onto the scene?
That "Little Horn" in Daniel?

He begins with his "wonderful words".
Not with the sword, but with his wonderful words.
What does that tell you?
It tells you that he wants to convince everybody to follow him, Christians included.He's not coming out swinging the sword just yet .. he's coming out talking.

So he starts with words .. very wonderful words.

Strong arguments, air tight logic .. well, strong & airtight to those who do not know the Lord, for every one else .. this guy knows what he's talking about.
And many  "Christians" & those sitting on the fence .. will fall.
They will fall because of his wonderful words, his arguments .. "And he shall wear down the saints" .."wear down" .. 
Now consider the saints being worn down in the context I have put forth .. 
Worn down is not the same language as "Put to death" now is it?
That, "Put to death" comes later .. but not that long later.

Not only that, consider something else here .. didn't God say that He would send "Strong Delusion for those who do not know the Lord but had pleasure in unrighteousness?"
When would be the time for those who loved pleasure over The Lord to receive strong delusion from God?
Well, to believe a lie .. one must first hear the lie, right?
And when will one hear the lie(s)?
Well, when that little horn appears with his wonderful words, right?

And when he starts speaking those wonderful words, who did God say would not be fooled?
Yep, those who follow the Lord.
So if those who follow AND know the Lord when this wicked man appears with his wonderful words .. those who know and follow the Lord BEFORE this wicked man appears were, by definition .. genuine followers of the Lord, right?

That being the case, WHY weren't these saints taken before this wicked man appeared because obviously and clearly .. these saints, by definition alone, are obviously pre-tribulation saints.

And what does the Lord tell us happens to those saints?
He says that .. they .. get .. put .. to .. death

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

PROBLEM 2:

Okay then ..

If that wicked man comes not only with his wonderful words but also with an added boost to his mission , being the strong delusion added on top of those wonderful words .. HOW on earth could countless saints who never really knew the Lord before this point, how on earth could they come to the Lord during this phase when they are hearing arguments so mind blowing to them that IF it were possible, even the elect would be deceived .. deceived not only because those word's were so wonderful & convincing, but deceived also because God sent strong delusion ADDED on top of those very powerful words the wicked one shall speak.

You see?
In this scenario, It will be impossible for tribulation saints to be anything other than pre tribulation saints.

This period is obviously God separating the wheat from the chaff for the final harvest.
Again, you have to be strong in the Lord before this wicked man even appears to have a chance of not being deceived .. again, by that definition alone .. these saints are/were obviously pre tribulation saints.

Houston, we have a problem.

I've never heard anybody bring this up before, so please brother's and sisters, if you see the conundrum this puts the pre tribulation lot in, feel free to use these arguments that need answering and get it "out there".

I've whipped this up on the spot to just get it out there at long, long last, I could have presented it better, it is what it is .. but I hope I did well enough to at least give pause to those who believe in pre trib rapture to consider what was said  ..  at least.

Thank you.
 

The Lord, in making man, joined Himself to a creature to rule the creature (Gen.1:26-28). But in these verses is another word - "subdue". That is, a rebellion in progress is implied and it is the job of man to sort this out. Satan, according to Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, was the former governor of the earth and it would seem from his temptation of Jesus that Adam was divested of his inheritance. Satan offers our Lord Jesus the Kingdoms of this earth as "his to give". This must be a true statement otherwise it was no temptation.

About 4,000 years after Adam was created, a Second Adam was placed on earth. Since God's councils cannot be overturned, and Jehovah had given the earth to man to subdue and rule, this Second Adam brought with Him a Kingdom which would end in the "seed of the woman" crushing the serpent AND HIS SEED (Gen.3:15). The battle end with TWO MEN facing off. BOTH live at the time of John. Both are kings. Both die. One has been resurrected and one will be resurrected. The SEED of the serpent is a Roman who comes out of the Nations (the sea) and comes out of the Abyss (Hades) in resurrection. One has all authority in heaven and on earth and the other is given "ALL POWER over kindreds, nations and tongues" (Rev.13:7)

Four signs are given the Church to indicate who this Beast of Satan's is
1. he does lying wonders
2. he has a big part in establishing the daily oblation in Jerusalem
3. since the Temple is needed for the daily oblation he has a part in rebuilding the Temple
4. he is known to suffer a deadly head wound and survive

Therefore, 2nd Thessalonians 2 can say to the Church, "they will see the man of sin REVEALED" (2:3).

But suddenly the children of the kingdom, followers of the Second Adam, hit a very noticeable problem. From the end of Revelation 3 the Church is NEVER MENTIONED AGAIN. But we still find members of the Church. That is ominous. The word "Ekklesia", used for the Church, means "a gathering of the called-out ones". But what we find is "the DIVIDING of the called-out ones". Four scriptures indicate member of the "Ekklesia" are away from the earth and the reign of the Beast, and four scriptures have members of the "Ekklesia" ON EARTH during the Beast's reign. And even more ominous is that this DIVISION of the "Ekklesia" is only healed 1,000 years later. Here they are;

1. In Matthew 24 a House witha Householder, who should be vigilant for "THEIR LORD" suffers the "House" to be divided
2. In Luke 21:35-36 the aim set by our Lord was, before the Tribulation starts, to "stand before Jesus". At this time our Lord Jesus has not reached the earth and is in the clouds
3. In Philippians 3:9-14 Paul shows us a "special resurrection" (ex-anastasis) that one must be WORTHY OF, and a PRIZE of an Upward-call (lit. Gk.) - the same two subjects of the rapture in 1st Thessalonians 4:12-17
4. In Revelation 3:10 our Lord promises ONLY OVERCOMERS that they will be kept FROM the hour of trial for the WHOLE earth

Conversely, we find the Lord's people on earth, very defeated, in;

1. Revelation 7:9-16 with tears, heat and thirst
2. Revelation 12:17 fleeing to a wilderness and persecuted
3. Revelation 13:7 DEFEATED by the Beast
4. Revelation 18:4 residing in Mystery Babylon

I propose that the pre-tribulation rapture for the whole Church is a MYTH. I propose that ONLY Overcomers and mature Christians will be found "WORTHY" to miss the Great Tribulation. I propose from the various records of the judgment of the Church that only SOME will be found worthy to be co-kings with Jesus (e.g. Lk.19:17-19). I propose that the slothful and unworthy Christians will face the Beast.

[other one]

18 hours ago, Serving said:

That being said, I humbly ask the moderator's that this post remain a stand alone post so these arguments of mine can at least get out there because I've never heard anybody use them before, other words .. new ammunition for the using and benefit of all parties involved. Anyways, my posts never stay "front page" for long anyway, so it'd likely roll over to page two soon enough. Thanks regardless.

Well, I don't have the stroke to grant that, but Michael might.  It's not the kind of thing we are here for, though.  If you want you can select the three little dots on the upper right side of your post and use the report which will alert Michael and the rest of us of your request to close the thread.  Only Michael or George can do that.

[Yokefellow]

19 hours ago, Serving said:

In this scenario, It will be impossible for tribulation saints to be anything other than pre tribulation saints.

What is wrong with the Saints that already died and went to Heaven? Why do they have to be alive down here, especially when the very word 'Saint' is mostly used for those that have passed away?

Scripture shows that the Little Horn causes Angels to fall here...

Daniel 8:9-10 "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.  And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them."

Sounds to me like the Saints that were worn out ended up falling from Heaven. Satan's tail draws them down, remember?

Edited January 29 by Yokefellow

[Yokefellow]

19 hours ago, Serving said:

didn't God say that He would send "Strong Delusion for those who do not know the Lord but had pleasure in unrighteousness?"
When would be the time for those who loved pleasure over The Lord to receive strong delusion from God?

The Strong Delusion happens in Hell, after the unredeemed pass away. It does not happen in the world of the living. That is what Hell is all about. The unredeemed all have their different punishments according to their sins.

It is right here...

Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

God chooses the Hell experience according to a person's worst fear. Everyone will experience something different.

[Michael37]

20 hours ago, Serving said:

That being said, I humbly ask the moderator's that this post remain a stand alone post so these arguments of mine can at least get out there because I've never heard anybody use them before, other words .. new ammunition for the using and benefit of all parties involved.

If members populate posts they stay in the Activity Stream. There are rules around "bumping" posts to keep them in the Activity Stream so please don't do that. Even if a post gets pinned to stay at the forefront of a Sub-forum that doesn't guarantee it gets viewed or commented on, so the subject matter and opinion tone have a lot to do with a thread staying in the peloton, to use a cycling analogy.

In cycling, a peloton (from the French word meaning "platoon") is the main group or pack of riders in a road race. The peloton rides closely together to reduce drag and conserve energy. Riders take turns at the front to break the wind, allowing others to draft or slipstream behind them, which is less tiring and more efficient.

Cyclists in the peloton often work strategically, communicating and coordinating, to gain an advantage over their competitors. It is a particular aspect of road cycling that requires both physical endurance and tactical intelligence.

Here the fruit of the Spirit is advised.

[WilliamL]

On 1/27/2025 at 11:03 PM, Serving said:

What happens when the false prophet bursts onto the scene?
That "Little Horn" in Daniel?

Your article begins by stating this presumption as a fact. And then continues on by making other presumptions.

This is the problem with long posts such as this one.

It is better to prove one point at a time. Just as one can only eat a whale one bite at a time.

[Charlie744]

On 1/27/2025 at 11:03 PM, Serving said:

Greetings,

I am assuming that I need not quote scripture since this is such a hot topic for so long now.

I am also assuming that nobody has used these arguments of mine I am about to put forth, I've searched many times before on the net .. never seen these two points I'm about to share .. this might have changed in recent years? I don't know, been a couple of years since I've checked ..but I don't think so, other wise I'd likely have come across it by now? Or maybe not?

That being said, I humbly ask the moderator's that this post remain a stand alone post so these arguments of mine can at least get out there because I've never heard anybody use them before, other words .. new ammunition for the using and benefit of all parties involved. Anyways, my posts never stay "front page" for long anyway, so it'd likely roll over to page two soon enough. Thanks regardless.

Here we go ..

Here are two problems needing addressing.

PROBLEM 1:

What happens when the false prophet bursts onto the scene?
That "Little Horn" in Daniel?

He begins with his "wonderful words".
Not with the sword, but with his wonderful words.
What does that tell you?
It tells you that he wants to convince everybody to follow him, Christians included.He's not coming out swinging the sword just yet .. he's coming out talking.

So he starts with words .. very wonderful words.

Strong arguments, air tight logic .. well, strong & airtight to those who do not know the Lord, for every one else .. this guy knows what he's talking about.
And many  "Christians" & those sitting on the fence .. will fall.
They will fall because of his wonderful words, his arguments .. "And he shall wear down the saints" .."wear down" .. 
Now consider the saints being worn down in the context I have put forth .. 
Worn down is not the same language as "Put to death" now is it?
That, "Put to death" comes later .. but not that long later.

Not only that, consider something else here .. didn't God say that He would send "Strong Delusion for those who do not know the Lord but had pleasure in unrighteousness?"
When would be the time for those who loved pleasure over The Lord to receive strong delusion from God?
Well, to believe a lie .. one must first hear the lie, right?
And when will one hear the lie(s)?
Well, when that little horn appears with his wonderful words, right?

And when he starts speaking those wonderful words, who did God say would not be fooled?
Yep, those who follow the Lord.
So if those who follow AND know the Lord when this wicked man appears with his wonderful words .. those who know and follow the Lord BEFORE this wicked man appears were, by definition .. genuine followers of the Lord, right?

That being the case, WHY weren't these saints taken before this wicked man appeared because obviously and clearly .. these saints, by definition alone, are obviously pre-tribulation saints.

And what does the Lord tell us happens to those saints?
He says that .. they .. get .. put .. to .. death

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

PROBLEM 2:

Okay then ..

If that wicked man comes not only with his wonderful words but also with an added boost to his mission , being the strong delusion added on top of those wonderful words .. HOW on earth could countless saints who never really knew the Lord before this point, how on earth could they come to the Lord during this phase when they are hearing arguments so mind blowing to them that IF it were possible, even the elect would be deceived .. deceived not only because those word's were so wonderful & convincing, but deceived also because God sent strong delusion ADDED on top of those very powerful words the wicked one shall speak.

You see?
In this scenario, It will be impossible for tribulation saints to be anything other than pre tribulation saints.

This period is obviously God separating the wheat from the chaff for the final harvest.
Again, you have to be strong in the Lord before this wicked man even appears to have a chance of not being deceived .. again, by that definition alone .. these saints are/were obviously pre tribulation saints.

Houston, we have a problem.

I've never heard anybody bring this up before, so please brother's and sisters, if you see the conundrum this puts the pre tribulation lot in, feel free to use these arguments that need answering and get it "out there".

I've whipped this up on the spot to just get it out there at long, long last, I could have presented it better, it is what it is .. but I hope I did well enough to at least give pause to those who believe in pre trib rapture to consider what was said  ..  at least.

Thank you.
 

I would like to ask you to identify just who the little horn is in Daniel 7,8 and 11. And in order to do that one must use the prophetic verses found in Daniel 2, 7 and 8 whch provides sufficient characteristics, attributes, actions, timing, etc., for us to reveal him. If he is found to be an end time figure, you will never be able to make sense out of the Hebrew chapters in Daniel nor the verses in Revelation that speak of the sea beast, the earth beast, the harlot, etc. 

Almost 90 percent of folks have thrown so much of Daniel into the end times but the book of Daniel is approximately speaking of the literal events and actors that occur between 606 BC and the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy - which is 3.5 years after the cross. The other 10 percent (chaper 11) covers the period from the cross to the time when the little horn comes to full power and sits atop the 4th beast kingdom and continues until His return. Meaning, your questions can be answered only by properly identifiying the subject (the little horn) and when he comes on the scene. If you look in both Daniel and Revelation, one should see that this little horn does not accomplish or do all of his actions or transgressions against God and His people and His saints at the end of time..... He clearly is shown to speak against God, His saints and His followers for a very long time up to His return, not just before His return. 

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 1/28/2025 at 12:03 AM, Serving said:

Again, you have to be strong in the Lord before this wicked man even appears to have a chance of not being deceived

Your forgetting about the two prophets, their ministry will happen during the time of the false prophet.
People will have the ability to believe the two prophets.