BUSTED -12 False Theories Refuted

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Excalibur said:

1.  That verse says nothing about the setting up of a kingdom. 
 

2.  What kingdom did God set up in the days of the Roman Empire in the first century, per Dan 2:44?

Shalom, again, @Excalibur.

The short answers are ...

(1) Read the all caps of Matthew 25:31-36 (KJV)

31 "WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME IN HIS GLORY, and all the holy angels with him, THEN SHALL HE SIT UPON THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,

"'Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.' "

(2) "None."

Actually, in a longer answer with explanation, it can be shown that the Roman Empire hasn't truly died off, yet. We're still in it with our governments and means of control over the peoples of Europe and the New World. It's merely faded to invisibility, having been called the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and of late the European Union and the United Nations; however, it will become noticeable once again, and soon it will be in charge again!

We're still part of the feet of iron mixed with clay, and we don't adhere very well together. Over the last few decades, many parallels have been drawn between the old Roman Empire and our own United States of America.

And, the Kingdom that God sets up was DELAYED as per Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 12:1-3.

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he (the Messiah of verse 26) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week (Luke 1:30-33; 2 Samuel 2:11; 7:1-17; 1 Kings 2:11): and in the midst of the week (3.5 years, confirm with harmonies of the Gospels) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45; Hebrews 10:5-20), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate (Matthew 23:1-38), even until the consummation (Matthew 23:39), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Jeremiah 30:1-24).

Daniel 12:1-3 (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael ("Who-is-like-God") stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Recognizing that the last few verses of Daniel 11 are speaking about Herod the Great and the battle between Anthony/Cleopatra and Rome and how it influenced Herod, verse 1 will begin with the introduction of the Messiah Yeeshuwa` until the "time of trouble" has begun. Verse 2 speaks of the Resurrections of life and of the second death, which sandwich the 1,000 years of HaSatan's temporary incarceration in the Abyss. But, the Resurrection to everlasting life comes when the Messiah Returns (1 Corinthians 15:23; Revelation 20:1-6), at his sentence's beginning, and the Resurrection to shame and everlasting contempt is after he is released (1 Corinthians 15:24; Revelation 20:7-15).

Edited Tuesday at 10:59 AM by Retrobyter
to attach Scripture

[Excalibur]

23 hours ago, Keras said:

I meant, obviously; all the unfulfilled Prophesies. 

And what’s the gauge you’re using to determine what has and hasn’t come to pass?

Quote

Although it can be said there were 10 divisions of the ancient Roman Empire, they were not concurrent, but consecutive, which does not fit with Daniel or Revelation. 

Ah…and assuming for the moment that you’re correct with that assumption, what are the chances a single empire would split into ten kingdoms TWICE in its “lifetime?”

And by “lifetime,” I mean where in scripture does it say the Roman Empire would split into ten kingdoms upon its fall, revive into a single empire again, and then split into ten kingdoms a second time?

Answer: scripture teaches no such thing. 
 

Which means the division of the Roman Empire into ten kingdoms via barbarian invasions circa the 5th century is the fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. 
 

Which also means you need to adjust your eschatological beliefs. 

Edited Tuesday at 08:13 PM by Excalibur

[Keras]

1 hour ago, Excalibur said:

And what’s the gauge you’re using to determine what has and hasn’t come to pass?

The historical record and scripture: 

The Roman Empire – [Julius Caesar]

Daniel 2:32-33 & 40 Finally there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, it will dominate all the others, but as its legs represent, this will be a divided kingdom – its people will be a mixture, it will not remain united. [The Western and Eastern Roman Empires]

Daniel 7:7a & 23 The fourth beast, fearsome and very powerful with great iron teeth, crushed and devoured its victims, then trampled what was left.

Daniel 9:26 After sixty two weeks, [434 years] the anointed Prince, [Jesus] will be removed and the army [of Rome] will destroy the city and the Temple. [As fulfilled in 70AD.] 

The Fourth Kingdom: A Last Days resurgence of Rome – [the rise of the 'beast'; the Anti Christ]

Daniel 2:33 & 42-43...its feet of part iron and part clay....

Daniel 7:7b-8 ... the fourth beast had ten horns, another horn grew up and uprooted three of the ten. That other horn was very imposing and spoke with great power. As I watched this horn waged war on the holy ones and defeated them. Rev 17:12-13, Rev 13:5-8

Daniel 7:23-24 The explanation is this: This fourth kingdom will take over the whole earth, [The One World Government] The ten horns signify the ten divisions of the world, but another man will arise  and defeat three of the first leaders.  [ Revelation 13:1-4]

Daniel 11:21 Another king will come, a person not worthy of recognition, but he will seize power by intrigue and cunning.  [a clever and charismatic man]

Daniel 8:23-25 In the last days, when sin is at its height, a powerful king and a master of strategy will arise. He will succeed in whatever he does and will take control of the nations and the holy people. [all the faithful Christians, gathered in all of the holy Land] By cunning and deceit, he will destroy many when they felt secure and did not expect it. He will challenge the ‘Prince of princes’, [the Lord] yet he will be defeated, but not by human hand.

Daniel 9:27 The prince, [The world leader, descended from Rome] will make a treaty with many, [that is: not all of the Christians] for one week, [that is: seven years] but at the mid point, he will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings. [in the new Temple]  He will place an ‘abomination’ there, then in the end what has been decreed will come on him.

Daniel 7:25 He will defy God and take control of the holy people for 3½ years. [This is the ‘beast’ of Revelation 13:1-8. The One World leader receives a ‘mortal blow’ and his body is taken over by Satan, commencing the ‘forty two months’ Tribulation period]

Daniel 11:22-45 His army will be victorious and a leader of the Covenant people will be killed. The military forces of the South will be defeated and he will invade the Middle East, but ships of the Western nations will oppose him, so he will turn back. In the holy Land, he will vent his fury against the people who hold to the Covenant, but will show favour to those who forsake it by believing his promises.  His soldiers will desecrate the Temple, setting up an ‘abomination of desolation’. Those of the Lord’s people [Christians] who remain faithful to the Lord, will be resolute and take action. Wise leaders of the nation will guide their people, though for a time some may be killed or captured. They will receive a little help, as many who join them are insincere. This is a period of testing, of refining and purification, for the end is yet to be; at the appointed time. Daniel 7:9, Daniel 8:22, Rev. 13:8

Daniel 11:36-45 This powerful world ruler will do as he pleases, he will promote himself as god, [2 Thess 2:4] uttering terrible blasphemies. Things will go well for him until the time of wrath is completed. [The Tribulation] Near the end, the leader of a Southern confederation will attempt to attack him, so he storms out in full force, sweeping all before him, including the holy Land. He will take control of all Arabia and take their treasure. Then, alarmed by rumours from the North and East, he will hurriedly go back to Israel and camp in the valley of Megiddo, where he will meet his end.  [at Armageddon] Daniel 7:11, Revelation 19:17-21

Next: 

The Kingdom of Jesus –                                            2 Samuel 22

Edited Tuesday at 09:12 PM by Keras

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Keras said:

Daniel 9:27 The prince, [The world leader, descended from Rome] will make a treaty with many, [that is: not all of the Christians] for one week, [that is: seven years] but at the mid point, he will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings. [in the new Temple]  He will place an ‘abomination’ there, then in the end what has been decreed will come on him.

I don't know what version you are citing, but this is by no means an accurate translation of the Hebrew text. Not by a long shot.

My own translation of Daniel 9:27, explained word-for-word in meticulous detail, can be found here:

43. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 5: Verse 27

A very detailed translation and grammatical explanation of Daniel 9:27, which reveals various mistranslations found in different English versions of the Bible.   https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

I challenge you to show where my translation contradicts the Hebraic text. If you cannot, then you are basing your teaching(s) on a faulty foundation.

Edited Tuesday at 10:16 PM by WilliamL

[Keras]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

I challenge you to show where my translation contradicts the Hebraic text. If you cannot, then you are basing your teaching(s) on a faulty foundation.

I base my interpretation of Daniel 9:27 on the entire Bible narrative of God's Plans for His faithful peoples. 

Being pedantic about exact meanings of ancient words, is a dead end rabbit trail. It is well known that Hebrew especially; must be understood in all of its context. AND with the correct discernment. That is: without pre-conceived beliefs. 

You could write out that verse and tell us who you think are the participants of this 'covenant/agreement are, and whether the Prophecy in 2 Thess 2:4, parallels it. 

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

I don't know what version you are citing, but this is by no means an accurate translation of the Hebrew text. Not by a long shot.

My own translation of Daniel 9:27, explained word-for-word in meticulous detail, can be found here:

43. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 5: Verse 27

A very detailed translation and grammatical explanation of Daniel 9:27, which reveals various mistranslations found in different English versions of the Bible.   https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

I challenge you to show where my translation contradicts the Hebraic text. If you cannot, then you are basing your teaching(s) on a faulty foundation.

Shalom, @WilliamL, and

3 hours ago, Keras said:

I base my interpretation of Daniel 9:27 on the entire Bible narrative of God's Plans for His faithful peoples. 

Being pedantic about exact meanings of ancient words, is a dead end rabbit trail. It is well known that Hebrew especially; must be understood in all of its context. AND with the correct discernment. That is: without pre-conceived beliefs. 

You could write out that verse and tell us who you think are the participants of this 'covenant/agreement are, and whether the Prophecy in 2 Thess 2:4, parallels it. 

Shalom, @Keras.

So, now it has come down to an understanding of GaVriy'eel's (Gabriel's) words to Daniel in Daniel 9:24-27.

Keras, the study of Hebrew and the "ancient words" is NOT a "dead-end rabbit trail!" It's where one will derive the actual meaning of the words one reads, WHATEVER translation of the Hebrew text one may be reading!

It's just that most Gentile believers do NOT take the time to LEARN HEBREW!

WilliamL, you have a detailed investigation into the Hebrew, but not from a Hebrew's understanding of the words. "SIBKIS," Charles "Tremendous" Jones used to say: "See It Big, Keep It Simple."

This messenger from God was sent to an intelligent man who was made a eunuch in Babylon and is now living a useful life in Persia. As a child, Daniel was born a Hebrew who had learned Hebrew and was recognized as someone who could be useful, when he was captured. His importance grew as His wisdom and godliness were recognized.

From a personal view, Daniel was a man who feared YHWH God and He could read and study "the books," particularly that of the prophet Yirmeyahuw ("Jeremiah"), which he either obtained and preserved, or made a copy of it, or had a copy made. Without chapter and verse numbers, he was reading through the scroll of the prophet and discovered the passages we now mark as Jeremiah 25:11-12 and Jeremiah 29:10, learning that the Captivity would be limited to seventy years, if they returned to YHWH God.

Jeremiah 25:8-14 (KJV)

8 'Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts;

'"Because ye have not heard my words, 9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north," saith the LORD, "and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. 10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. 11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, [and] an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon SEVENTY YEARS. 

12 "'And it shall come to pass, WHEN SEVENTY YEARS ARE ACCOMPLISHED, [that] I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation," saith the LORD, "for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations. 13 And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, [even] all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations. 14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands." 

Daniel 29:1-14 (KJV)

1 Now these [are] the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon; 2 (After that Jeconiah the king, and the queen, and the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, and the carpenters, and the smiths, were departed from Jerusalem;) 3 By the hand of Elasah the son of Shaphan, and Gemariah the son of Hilkiah, (whom Zedekiah king of Judah sent unto Babylon to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon) saying,

4 "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel,

"'Unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon; 5 Build ye houses, and dwell [in them]; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them; 6 Take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye may be increased there, and not diminished. 7 And seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the LORD for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace.'"

8 "For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel;

"'Let not your prophets and your diviners, that [be] in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed. 9 For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them,' saith the LORD.

10 "For thus saith the LORD,

"'That AFTER SEVENTY YEARS BE ACCOMPLISHED AT BABYLON I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you,' saith the LORD, 'thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. 12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. 13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart. 14 And I will be found of you,' saith the LORD: 'and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you,' saith the LORD; 'and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.'"

Daniel was confessing his sins and the sins of his people, when GaVriy'eel (גַּבְרִיאֵל) was sent, and He said this, in verses 24-27:

24
שָׁבֻעִים שִׁבְעִים נֶחְתַּךְ עַל־עַמְּךָ וְעַל־עִיר קָדְשֶׁךָ לְכַלֵּא הַפֶּשַׁע וּלְהָתֵם חַטָּאת וּלְכַפֵּרעָוֺן וּלְהָבִיא צֶדֶק עֹלָמִים וְלַחְתֹּם חָזוֹן וְנָבִיא וְלִמְשֹׁחַ קֹדֶשׁ קָדָשִׁים׃
25
וְתֵדַע וְתַשְׂכֵּל מִן־מֹצָא דָבָר לְהָשִׁיב וְלִבְנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִַם עַד־מָשִׁיחַ נָגִיד שָׁבֻעִים שִׁבְעָה וְשָׁבֻעִים שִׁשִּׁים וּשְׁנַיִם תָּשׁוּב וְנִבְנְתָה רְחוֹב וְחָרוּץ וּבְצוֹק הָעִתִּים׃
26
וְאַחֲרֵי הַשָּׁבֻעִים שִׁשִּׁים וּשְׁנַיִם יִכָּרֵת מָשִׁיחַ וְאֵין לוֹ וְהָעִיר וְהַקֹּדֶשׁ יַשְׁחִית עַם נָגִידהַבָּא וְקִצּוֹ בַשֶּׁטֶף וְעַד קֵץ מִלְחָמָה נֶחֱרֶצֶת שֹׁמֵמוֹת׃
27
וְהִגְבִּיר בְּרִית לָרַבִּים שָׁבוּעַ אֶחָד וַחֲצִי הַשָּׁבוּעַ יַשְׁבִּית זֶבַח וּמִנְחָה וְעַל כְּנַף שִׁקּוּצִיםמְשֹׁמֵם וְעַד־כָּלָה וְנֶחֱרָצָה תִּתַּךְ עַל־שֹׁמֵם׃ פ

Here are the transliterations of these verses into English characters:

24 ShaaVu`iym shiV`iym naachtakh `al-`amkhaa v`al-`iyr qaadshekhaa lkhallee' hapesha` uwlhaateem chaTTaa't uwlkhapeer `aavown uwlhaaViy' tsedeq `olaamiym vlachtom chaazown vnaaViy' vlimshoach qodesh qaadaashiym:

25 Vteeda` vtaskeel min-motsaa' daaVaar lhaashiyV vliVnowt yruwshaalaim `ad-maashiyach naagiyd shaaVu`iym shiV`aah vshaaVu`iym shishshiym usshnayim vniVntaah rchowV vchaaruwts uwVtsowq haa`ittiym:

26 V'achareey hashshaaVu`iym shishshiym uwshnayim yikaareet maashiyach v'eeyn low vhaa`iyr vhaqqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd tabaa' vqitstsow bashsheTef v`ad qeets milchaamaah necheretset shomeemowt:

27 Vhigbiyr briyt laarabiym shaaVuwa` 'echaad vachatsiy hashshaaVuwa` yashbiyt zeVach uwminchaah v`al knaf shiqquwtsiym mshomeem v`ad-kaalaah vnecheraatsaah  titakh `al-shomeem: F

And, a word-for-word translation follows:

24 "Seventy sevens are-determined upon-your-people and-upon-city your-holy
to-finish the-transgression and-to-make-an-end of-sin and-to-atonement of-iniquityand-to-usher-in righteousness of-ages and-to-seal-up vision and-prophecy and-to-anoint holy of-holies:

25 "And-know and-understand from-issuing of-word to-restore and-to-build Jerusalem unto-Messiah prince sevens seven and-sevens sixty and-two and-shall-be-built street and-wall and-in-distress the-times:

26 "And-after the-sevens sixty and-two shall-be-cut-off Messiah and-not to-him and-the-city and-the-holy shall-be-destroyed [by]-a-people of-a-prince that-shall-come and-its-end shall-be in-a-flood and-unto an-end of-the-war are-determined desolations:

27 "And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many a-seven one and-in-middle of-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-cease sacrifice and-gift and-upon a-spread-out-wing of-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-unto-end and-that-determined shall-be-poured upon-desolate."

It's important to understand that there are NO subjects in verse 27 for the verbs in verse 27. In that sense, verse 27 is a CONTINUATION from verse 26, as we must go back to verse 26 for a subject-noun antecedent that will match the verbs which require a masculine, singular, personal noun.

The problem arises when one understands that many Gentile believers have believed the antecedent to be the "prince that shall come," or "naagiyd tabaa'"; HOWEVER, the Hebrew shows us that this is THE SECOND NOUN of a noun construct state where the second noun would be translated into English with an "of" in front of it. The phrase is "`am naagiyd tabaa'" and, like in English, the second noun of the noun construct state (in English the object of the preposition "of") cannot be the subject of a main verb in the sentence! So, the conclusion is that "the prince that shall come" CANNOT be the subject of the verbs in verse 27. This forces one to go back farther into the verse for the next masculine, singular, personal noun, "Messiah." Thus, it is the "Messiah" that is the antecedent of the verbs in verse 27.

So, the correct substitutions would be...

27 And-the-Messiah-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many a-seven one and-in-middle of-the-seven the-Messiah-shall-cause-to-cease sacrifice and-gift and-upon a-spread-out-wing of-abominations the-Messiah-shall-make-desolate and-unto-end and-that-determined shall-be-poured upon-desolate.

And, each of these are shown in the New Testament:

"And-the-Messiah-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many a-seven one" was satisfied simply by HIM BEING BORN AND ALL THINGS PROPHESIED ABOUT HIM BEING FULFILLED! The "covenant" was the DAVIDIC Covenant, which the same man GaVriy'eel ("Gabriel") quoted to Miryam ("Mary") in Luke 1:30-33! Like His predecessor David before Him, the Jews - the children of Yhudah, His own tribe - should have made Him their king for a seven, before He became the King of all Israel.

The portion "and-in-middle of-the-seven the-Messiah-shall-cause-to-cease sacrifice and-gift" was fulfilled by the fact that He was crucified and the veil in the Temple was torn in half from the top to the bottom, signifying God's satisfaction with the sacrifice He made; no more sacrifices or gifts for sins were needed.

The final portion "and-upon a-spread-out-wing of-abominations the-Messiah-shall-make-desolate" was fulfilled before His crucifixion when He pronounced them "desolate" in Matthew 23:38.

[Keras]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It's just that most Gentile believers do NOT take the time to LEARN HEBREW!

It cannot be that we all must learn the ancient languages to understand the Bible. 

From what I see, those who quote ancient words and concepts, are the worst perpetrators of error and confusion. Your long winded posts are an example. 

We should thank the Lord for the Bible in or own language and the dedicated translators for their work. 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The final portion "and-upon a-spread-out-wing of-abominations the-Messiah-shall-make-desolate" was fulfilled before His crucifixion when He pronounced them "desolate" in Matthew 23:38

What pretentious nonsense!   'he', is not the Messiah - in Daniel 9:27. 

[Alive]

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Keras said:

It cannot be that we all must learn the ancient languages to understand the Bible.

Shalom, @Keras.

No, but it HELPS! Look, the deeper one wants to go into the Scriptures, the deeper must be his or her knowledge of the languages used in writing the Bible. One must also come to a knowledge of the culture of the Israelites and the TIMES in which they lived, when the book being studied was written. That is the historical, cultural context that some ignore.

5 hours ago, Keras said:

From what I see, those who quote ancient words and concepts, are the worst perpetrators of error and confusion. Your long winded posts are an example. 

Look again. The worst perpetrators of error and confusion are those who make unsubstantiated claims and cannot back them up with Scripture!

The whole idea that the "'seventieth week of Daniel 9:27' IS the 'tribulation period'" was one of the original hoaxes of the 20th Century!

A second hoax is that "the 'prince that shall come' IS 'the Antichrist'." This took the Messiah (who was ALREADY in Daniel 9:27) out of Daniel 9:27, WHICH, by the way, shows that HALF of the seventieth Seven is already FULFILLED! We are only waiting for the delay to be over "when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled" and Yeeshuwa` returns, starting up the clock on the second half of the seventieth Seven, as He once again offers the Kingdom to Israel, starting with the Jews.

5 hours ago, Keras said:

We should thank the Lord for the Bible in our own language and the dedicated translators for their work. 

What pretentious nonsense!   'he', is not the Messiah - in Daniel 9:27. 

I do thank the LORD for the Bible in our own language and that He has protected it down through the years; however, that doesn't relinguish the responsibility that teachers of that Bible have to know PRECISELY what the truth is that he or she is supposed to be teaching.

There are NUANCES to the words used that aren't fully translated in the modern versions of the Bible. That doesn't make our Bible wrong; it simply means that there are facets of the Bible that may elude detection otherwise, because of language barriers.

Many Bible teachers are OBLIVIOUS to the facts of Scripture BECAUSE they haven't digged into it enough! Things found within the tenses of the verbs, for instance, and the case of the nouns and pronouns that are used are not found within lexicons and dictionaries. One should know what the difference between the genitive case and the ablative case is, for instance, when determining what an author is trying to say by looking at the Greek of a word!

One should know what how the Hebrew combines suffixes and some prefixes to form number and gender for a VERB as well tenses and that's equally true for nouns and adjectives!

We can get the general meaning of a text by simply reading its English translation; however, to understand the specifics, sometimes we must go back to the original languages to get the deeper meanings of a context.

And, refute it all you want, but I've looked at the Hebrew, and it MUST be the Messiah that is meant by the "he" in Daniel 9:27. AND, it FITS! For instance, why did Yeeshuwa` go through all the abominations of the scribes and Pharisees, and then make this statement?

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

38 "Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say,

"'Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the LORD.'" (Psalm 118:26)

[Revelation Man]

On 5/31/2025 at 1:17 PM, Retrobyter said:

First, there is no such entity as "The Church!"

Sure there is, it means "Body" and we are the body of Christ that is literally what it means. We are hands, feet, toes, as Paul tells us, all many but one in Christ who is the head. He's our High Priest in Heaven sitting at he Fathers side.

The bible even foretold this event, Paul speaks about it in Rom. 11 he quotes Isaiah about Go calling a strange people he HAD NOT KNOWN, and he also stated Israel would repent, as Zech. 13:8-9 says they will.

On 5/31/2025 at 1:17 PM, Retrobyter said:

Too many people have this concept that, somehow, God has built for His Son another entity comparable to the children of Israel. They are "The CHURCHES," plural, in the New Testament, Αἱ ἐκκλησίαι, or "Hai ekkleesiai," in Greek!

Its not another "Entity" that your words, because both Jews and Gentiles can come unto Christ ad be a part of his Bride. But only Jews (mostly, a few Gentiles knew God in the Old Test.) will be the Fathers Bride. Both are God, its just how God chose to save the world. If the God of "Israel" had been given to the world many would have rejected that aspect, but instead Gid chose to let a Human Man/Jesus/God the Redeemer, die for their sins, thus they could turn to a human being they could see, and understand he was the son of God. You saying Jesus and God doesn't have separate brides just belies the word of God. Its a fact.

On 5/31/2025 at 1:17 PM, Retrobyter said:

Now, Israel IS INDEED the "original Bride." However, those who were "in time past Gentiles in the flesh" are now "fellowcitizens WITH the saints (the holy ones of Israel)!"

 

However they are not Jews, they are still Gentiles. In Gal. 3 Paul was speaking unto HOW we all come unto God be we Jew, Gentile, Male or Female, Slave or Freeman, and that is by FAITH ALONE, Paul was never saying we are all one entity no more than he was saying there is only ONE SEX now. He was saying we are all one in Christ & how we come into the family of God which is a spiritual family, that does not change these facts, there are still Males and Females, and Jews and Gentiles etc.

On 5/31/2025 at 1:17 PM, Retrobyter said:

We don't supercede the children of Israel, nor do we replace them! But, we also are not separate from them! Paul said to the Gentiles at Ephesus,

 

Are you really saying God can not have SEPERATE CALLINGS for two different entities? Nations? Peoples? How about the Church, we all are told by Paul we each have UNIQUE CALLINGS unto God, some to Prophesy, some to Healing, some to Preaching and some to Teaching etc. etc. So, God can call us humans unto different callings but not Nations & Peoples hey? Come on brother !! Your problem is you have to try and mold everything to fit your understandings & beliefs, that is not how it works, we have to mold ourselves unto God's truths. 

The reason I do not quote/reply to all the scriptures is it does no good if a person 1.) Takes it out of context 2.) Misunderstands the passages 3.) People sometimes just confuse the context and apply it where it doesn't belong. The THIRD one gets you above on Ephesians, WE AGREE, we are all one in Christ Jesus, we are all Christs Bride.......BUT YOU MISS EVERYTHING ELSE VIA THE TIMING TELLS. Those who died before Jesus was born are the Fathers Bride, those Jews who repent AFTER the Pre Trib. Rapture will again be a part of the Fathers Bride, they ARE the 144,000 which is a CODE just like the 1/3 in Zechariah 13:8-9, God was never going to give Satan the true numbers 2000 plus years ago so that he could plan out his strategies.  The number 12 = Fulness and the number 10 = Completeness, thus 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 is not really just  144,000 people/MALE VIRGINS, its ALL Israel who repents both male, female and children. Why is it you guys understand the concept of the 10 Virgin Brides as being the Complete Bride of Christ, men, women and children, but then can not get the concept of the 144,000 Virgin Males who are God's Bride? The 1/3 of Israel who repent.  

On 5/31/2025 at 1:17 PM, Retrobyter said:

Now, before I quote these passages, it's important to remember that the Greek language has some "fatal flaws"; namely, it has no true "H" letter nor does it have a "Y" letter, and just for good measure, it also doesn't have a true "V" or a "W," either!

When a word in Hebrew began with a "Y" - a yod, the letter "I" - iota - was substituted instead, for in certain conditions, it SOUNDED similar to a "Y."

All this is not relevant, with the holy spirit, a design throughout the bible can be seen, one doesn't have to try to see these ghost events, one can see a thread on continuity, but when one denies these things, then they have to try and make things fit that don't fit naturally. Thus we get philosophical breakdowns on word meanings etc. etc. I study all the root words, but I do so on a deeper level, not to try and weave in another meaning per se, but to get to the original meaning.

With all your word study, I bet its just done to back up your already born out points of view. You will never look at 2 Thess. 2:3 and ADMIT that really means DEPARTURE [of the Church] even though its OBVIOUS that's what it means. So, your word study can not be taken serious by me, since you will not ever use it to go against what you already believe. Its like a crutch for you, you only use it when it backs you up. 

You wrote NEVER ENDING REPLIES that do nothing to the points I put forth, I showed how the Bride was linked by Jesus to his Disciples, y our soon to come Rapture and you came up with nothing but never ending word verbiage, which at some point just becomes nonsensical repetitive non points. Any excuse to about my reasonings seems like the plot twist.

On 5/31/2025 at 1:17 PM, Retrobyter said:

Sorry, but He "COMES AGAIN" BEFORE He "receives us to Himself." And, again, He DIDN'T SAY He was taking us back to His Father's House!

AGAIN.....TECH POINTS THAT ARE INCONGRUENT !!

 

The Bridal Suite is in the FATHERS HOUSE..........SMH. This is why you can not put anything together, you have a BELIEF and will use any point EVEN NONPOINTS like above, to excuse your belief's lack of cred. Jesus said I was come again and receive you unto myself. Where was the Bridal Room always built at? In the FATHERS HOUSE, you can not dodge this, even though you tried. SIGH

On 5/31/2025 at 1:17 PM, Retrobyter said:

This is a common error. The last "week" of the "Seventy Weeks of Years" is NOT the same as the "Tribulation." It's not the "Antichrist" that will fulfill the three statements in Daniel 9:27; It's the REAL "MESSIAH" of verse 26 who has fulfilled them!

 

I'm out, you are wrong, there will be a Pre Trib. Rapture, but you will never see ot coming until it happens and you are flying to be with the Lord IN SPIRIT, laving behind an earthly flesh body on earth. By then your pride will give way to understanding, we see darkly now, but at that point in time, you will know.