Trinity or Oneness?

[other one]

You know, I've seen a lot of these threads over the years, and it seems to me that there can really never be a consences over this subject until people decide just what the word "god" means from the origional languages.

If you read the word "God" and see Trinity, you really can't discuss this with anyone who is not a trinitarian. It's like talking about apples and grapes and not realizing why you can't agree. The word God from both Greek and Hebrew when you look up those words respectively mean deity in most cases. I say most because I have not looked at ever single on of them so I can't say all cases.

Deity means [any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force]. Same word for the God of Israel is used in taking about pagan gods in many places.

So, if this thread is to continue without the help of Brother Ted, might I suggest that everyone define what they mean when you use the word "god".

[damo1]

damo1

to ted

after coming back to this thred in long prayer and going over what most have been saying on this topic before it gets to way out of hand to wear peoples belifes are questioned and what pastors preach from the pulpit

i would ask that you close this thred as soon as you can i feel with in my own spirit that we are not going to get any wear and after reading what other one has left in the last post on page 5 of this topic

i feel its going to be very unhealthy for a new christian who is commited in a church to hear this

i spent over an hour in prayer after coming to your post and other ones post and then having spent the time re reading

what has been talked about

i know who god is i know what has been taught from the pulpit is not mis leading me as a person and with my own digging and back ground as an orthadox cathlic i found it very simple to under stand what was done for me on the cross

i know i am going to run into people like owningaseagle yet i am going to do what christ taught his disciples and that is forgive and leave this in gods hands for god to deal with people like this

as only god knows the state of a persons heart not me or any one else i can only share of what i have read in gods word my self

as an orthadox cathlic and some one who was a sinner i was very skeptical of this faith and to what i even saw being done in the cathlic church

that is one of my reasons i did not stick with the cathlic faith as my grand mother kept on pushing me to become an alter boy when i was living in yougoslavia and being taken to church at such a young age

so i hope you hear what i am saying as a brother who is open to the leading and to the teaching and has a teach able spirit

so before we get people coming against each others understanding of who god is for us please

close this thread as i can see its going to be one of these dead topics that is going to get no wear

we al read from diffrent translations i do not worship one bible over another bible i am even going to be buying the bible in my own languge ted

i read from the new itnernational version open study bible and the new spirit filled bible

when i was in jail i read the very old kings james version and i found it hard but i forced my self and i know of the history in the old testoment and new testoment

but i do not worship the bibles i read i alow the holy spirit to lead me to the truth of gods word this is just the way i am and i do not hide behind the bible passages

i only say what i have applied to my life and that means something to me as i had to even repent of hiding behind bible passages

i know who convicted me when i just had a month left of a long sentance and i am great full for what jesus did for me on the cross

and i feel after what i put out and others read on what i have put out i feel that most will agree with me its time to closs this thread

i do not belive in confusing a new christian a new christian should have the right to grow a new christian should have the right to belive what it says in acts

and a new christian should be given propper advice when it comes to christian forums

we are all from diffrent denominations and their are going to be times when we wil disagree with each other and our understanding of what we have learnt

yet i can not see why we cant walk in unity with each other i am very apostolic i belive in everything that is said in gods word even what happend in acts and to the very end when christ got crucified

our church use all the gifts paul talks about and even to wear prophets bring in gods word to what he is saying to the church and their are sevral that do translate something when we bring in a message in tongues

as it says hear in 1 corinthians 14 on gifts of prophecy and tounges

i do not force my views and how i have been raised in my church on to no one

i learn to walk in unity with my other brothers and sisters in the lord

i have friends in the baptist church i have friends in the salvation army church and in the unitting church and also in the anglican church and church of christ

i also pray with spirit filled cathlics who have pulled away from the cathlic church its self and have started a new church wear they even use all the gifts paul talks about

i also have sevral friends who are open brethrens and i have learnt a lot from these people that i have alowed to speak into my life

so if i can do this in the farming comunity i live in hear wear we from many diffrent denominations get together each year and we fast and we pray and we cry out for our own comunity to wear it has take over 8 yrs for us all to get together like this i cant see why what it says in gods word can not be done all over the world

hear in Armidale new south wales we have over our country town a 40 days prayer for armidale

and we also have combined prayer and worship nights wear many from difftrent denominations get to sing sevral songs they sing in their church we even have old hyms as well

i get up set when i see some one trying to tell me one translation has it right compared to all the other translations that are sold and printed all threw out the world

in our jails hear the giddions bible is used and left in our cells

wear i was serving time on a prison farm i was given the old kings james bible to read

i even got given the new kings james bible but i passed this on to some one else and i bought the new itnernational version for my self

so if we can not come into agreement to what the op of this thread is asking as i said can we have this thread clossed and taken of the new topics all together

may gods peace and may his love rest on us and i ask that we do not attac each other or alow the enemy to have his way to wear we are attacking each other

as this is not helping a new christian who comes to worthy at al as al this does is bring in confusion and i do not want to be a stumbling block to a new brother or sister in the lord

this is all i am going to say i felt it was needed to be said

from damo

[mrs]

Onwings you have yet to really address the Scripture I referenced or the points I have made. Nor does your reasoning that ' the two of them are in heaven together' make any sense. You said God is one, - now you say He is two seperate persons?

Honestly your reasoning is confusing....Jesus is supposedly the Father incarnate, yet somehow in heaven the Father is both Himself and Jesus at the exact same time - thats ridiculous.

Again have you not read Hebrews 1 where Jesus sits down at the right hand of power? Two distinct Persons, not one in 2 bodies.

If God is just the Father, why does He say in Genesis ' let us make man in our image'? Honestly you make Him out to do a lot of illogical talking to oneself.

Oneness makes nonsense of many passages, was never taught as Christian doctrine and is definitely not backed by Scripture. I say again - it is heresy and not to be supported by a Christian.

[EricH]

I have given a full explaination of the doctrine of oneness in post 40 for all those who are interested and by the way it is not some thing I found or was told or learned by man. But this was some thing I wrote myself by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit who guides me into all truths

So are you claiming to be under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit and speaking inerrantly?

[damo1]

damo1

to owignsaseagles 7th of november 2007 time 9.30am \

if i wear you my friend i would find my post hear wear i am asking ted to close this thread and then when you find it i would ask that you read what i said to ted its not hard to find its still hear i came across it

i am also going to pm you my self to ask you to find this post i said sevral things in my post left to ted so if i wear you i would read from the start

and to call me a morman what a joke i am also in penticostal apostolic church my self and so is my partner i belive in everything it says in gods word but i do not correct or worship a translation i read from two bibles and i stick close with these two bible

i alow the holy spirit to lead me you say you are in a penticostal church it shows me that even your pastor does not understand what paul preached to the early churches

i jumped in on you for my own reasons as i do not want no one being miss led or led astray

when i read i ask the holy spirit to lead me and to guide me and also i know that i wil be held acountable while i am alive for what ever i say

i read the post you left for me at the end in post 5 of this topic you just found what i said early threw the week owningasealges

what right do you have to judge how i have been bought up and raised ? do you know that you too wil be held acountable for what you do and for what you say while you are alive on this earth

or do you feel that when you face jesus on judgment day he is going to tap you on the back and say well done bud welcome you made it

so pleas humer me and go read what i left for ted to read to wear i am asking ted to close this thread before we start openly attacking each other for no reason

then i want you to think what you wil say to me as i am a brother who has a teachable spirit who has not forgoten wear i came from and what christ did for me

by from damo

[MeCajunboy]

I am surprised that worthy even allows this discussion seeing as this site is totally trinitarian but I am not.I believe God is one not three or three persons or people or beings that create one God but one uni-personal God.Jesus was not ''God the Son'' made flesh but God himself ''The Father''.The distinction between Jesus and the Father was his humanity,not that he is a separate person of the trinity.Jesus not only said that he was one with the Father in john 10:30 but he said he was the Father john 14:7-9.Also Jesus says when praying in john 17:1-3 that the Father was the ONLY TRUE GOD so to deny that Jesus himself was the Father and say he was just ''God the Son'' a separate person of the trinity is to deny his deity all together.Lastly the apostle paul wrote in 1st cor 8:6 that there was ONE GOD the FATHER and one Lord Jesus Christ.There are not three persons of the God head there is one,Jesus Christ.In john 14:18 he refers to the man Jesus and the Holy Spirit both in first person.Jesus indeed was the son through his humanity but his divinity was the Father and his spirit was the Holy Spirit.Jesus Christ is the Father,Son and Holy Spirit.In matthew 28:19 Jesus tell his disciple to baptize in the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Spirit.Yet if you read through acts they baptised only in the name of Jesus or in the name of the Lord.Were they wrong for doing so?NO,the name of the Father,Son and,Holy Spirit is JESUS.

Thanks for your opinion, and your point is well taken. But due to the lack of respect you have shown a fellow Christian on the above topic, I'm inclined to have a lessor respect for the fact that you believe in only a one single intity in God. Perhaps, you might have a more civil tongue if God allowed HIS Spirit in you?

[damo1]

damo1

to ted

after coming back to this thred in long prayer and going over what most have been saying on this topic before it gets to way out of hand to wear peoples belifes are questioned and what pastors preach from the pulpit

i would ask that you close this thred as soon as you can i feel with in my own spirit that we are not going to get any wear and after reading what other one has left in the last post on page 5 of this topic

i feel its going to be very unhealthy for a new christian who is commited in a church to hear this

i spent over an hour in prayer after coming to your post and other ones post and then having spent the time re reading

what has been talked about

i know who god is i know what has been taught from the pulpit is not mis leading me as a person and with my own digging and back ground as an orthadox cathlic i found it very simple to under stand what was done for me on the cross

i know i am going to run into people like owningaseagle yet i am going to do what christ taught his disciples and that is forgive and leave this in gods hands for god to deal with people like this

as only god knows the state of a persons heart not me or any one else i can only share of what i have read in gods word my self

as an orthadox cathlic and some one who was a sinner i was very skeptical of this faith and to what i even saw being done in the cathlic church

that is one of my reasons i did not stick with the cathlic faith as my grand mother kept on pushing me to become an alter boy when i was living in yougoslavia and being taken to church at such a young age

so i hope you hear what i am saying as a brother who is open to the leading and to the teaching and has a teach able spirit

so before we get people coming against each others understanding of who god is for us please

close this thread as i can see its going to be one of these dead topics that is going to get no wear

we al read from diffrent translations i do not worship one bible over another bible i am even going to be buying the bible in my own languge ted

i read from the new itnernational version open study bible and the new spirit filled bible

when i was in jail i read the very old kings james version and i found it hard but i forced my self and i know of the history in the old testoment and new testoment

but i do not worship the bibles i read i alow the holy spirit to lead me to the truth of gods word this is just the way i am and i do not hide behind the bible passages

i only say what i have applied to my life and that means something to me as i had to even repent of hiding behind bible passages

i know who convicted me when i just had a month left of a long sentance and i am great full for what jesus did for me on the cross

and i feel after what i put out and others read on what i have put out i feel that most will agree with me its time to closs this thread

i do not belive in confusing a new christian a new christian should have the right to grow a new christian should have the right to belive what it says in acts

and a new christian should be given propper advice when it comes to christian forums

we are all from diffrent denominations and their are going to be times when we wil disagree with each other and our understanding of what we have learnt

yet i can not see why we cant walk in unity with each other i am very apostolic i belive in everything that is said in gods word even what happend in acts and to the very end when christ got crucified

our church use all the gifts paul talks about and even to wear prophets bring in gods word to what he is saying to the church and their are sevral that do translate something when we bring in a message in tongues

as it says hear in 1 corinthians 14 on gifts of prophecy and tounges

i do not force my views and how i have been raised in my church on to no one

i learn to walk in unity with my other brothers and sisters in the lord

i have friends in the baptist church i have friends in the salvation army church and in the unitting church and also in the anglican church and church of christ

i also pray with spirit filled cathlics who have pulled away from the cathlic church its self and have started a new church wear they even use all the gifts paul talks about

i also have sevral friends who are open brethrens and i have learnt a lot from these people that i have alowed to speak into my life

so if i can do this in the farming comunity i live in hear wear we from many diffrent denominations get together each year and we fast and we pray and we cry out for our own comunity to wear it has take over 8 yrs for us all to get together like this i cant see why what it says in gods word can not be done all over the world

hear in Armidale new south wales we have over our country town a 40 days prayer for armidale

and we also have combined prayer and worship nights wear many from difftrent denominations get to sing sevral songs they sing in their church we even have old hyms as well

i get up set when i see some one trying to tell me one translation has it right compared to all the other translations that are sold and printed all threw out the world

in our jails hear the giddions bible is used and left in our cells

wear i was serving time on a prison farm i was given the old kings james bible to read

i even got given the new kings james bible but i passed this on to some one else and i bought the new itnernational version for my self

so if we can not come into agreement to what the op of this thread is asking as i said can we have this thread clossed and taken of the new topics all together

may gods peace and may his love rest on us and i ask that we do not attac each other or alow the enemy to have his way to wear we are attacking each other

as this is not helping a new christian who comes to worthy at al as al this does is bring in confusion and i do not want to be a stumbling block to a new brother or sister in the lord

this is all i am going to say i felt it was needed to be said

from damo

damo1 wed 7th of november 2007 12.08pm

to owingsaseagles

this is damo i want you to read this post that i left for ted to read and i want you to read it from the top with out rushing and just coming to the end so you stil think i am a morman or a jahova witttness pot calling the ketle black think real hard brother as you are about to get rebuked and openly challanged if you keep pushing your luck

read very slowy with eyes wide open and then say to your self is jesus going to hold you acounatable for what you say and do while alive on this earth or do you think jesus wil say well done bud step right in her is your reward

think before you going casting a stone at me as i think i have made my point very clear to ted wear i am asking him to close this thread

have a good day bud may a stone not hit you in the face while walking home or what ever you do

from damo

[mrs]

You cant understand it because you do not want to,no amount of scripture or explaination would be change or mind or cause you to understand.You are happy with what you believe regaurdless if it is the truth or not,not only on this subject but many..So if you want to post your opinion please do, but dont address me directly.I will post my opinion and if you have some thing of substance to ad that is awesome.But all this(I just dont understand how Jesus could be God the Father and yet still be a man distinct from the Father at the same time)doesn't help you ,me nor others trying to learn or give there own opinions.I have given a full explaination of the doctrine of oneness in post 40 for all those who are interested and by the way it is not some thing I found or was told or learned by man.But this was some thing I wrote myself by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit who guides me into all truths.Also post 5 is an explaination of oneness as well.But smiles what confuses me is that you have a hard time with the Fact that Jesus is the Father because he through his humanity is distinct from the Father.Yet you have no problem with the Father,Son and Holy Spirit being three completely separate beings yet one and the same God.Even though the bible makes it so clear that there is no God but the Father even Jesus said that the Father was the only true God.So if you deny that Jesus was the Father you are denying that he is God John 17:1-3.Also you claim that Jesus is God the Son separate from the Father yet you say he is fully God but if God is three parts that create one God and Jesus is one of those three parts then you actually believe Jesus to be 1/3 God and not fully God?If I didn't know better which actually I don't I would believe you to be indoctrinated.Besides Jesus Himself says he is the Father John 14:7-9 who I am to disagree with Jesus I think he knows better than me who he is or was or will be.Maybe you know better than Jesus?We will see when we see him face to face.

First off your first few sentences are unsubstantiated and false. Secondly in a discussion it is totally valid to say that I don't understand a concept or idea - especially your ideas of Jesus being the Father Himself. And do not claim that the Spirit gave you that post to write - that is charging Him with inspiring that which goes against Scripture!

And no onwings, Jesus said ' I and the Father are one.' If He was the Father in human form - however that works - He would have said ' I am the Father.' But no He said...' I am he who was sent..' etc. It is clear that He is a seperate Person than the Father, yet also God since John 1:1 states so.

Again you haven't supported or clarified your confusing and contradictory statements about Jesus being the Father and yet a 2nd Person, in heaven.

[AnotherTraveler]

The nature of the invisible God. The explanation of the nature of the invisible God. The requirement that all accept the extra-biblical doctrine in it's entirity or they are in heresy. Why not agree with the scriptures?

1 Tim 3:16 (KJV)

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Could both sides of this agree that when it came to understanding mysteries, the Apostle Paul just might have a little deeper revelation than most of us? Yet, he calls this mystery GREAT.

Is it not a bit arrogant to argue over the nature of the Godhead?

Oneness is not an easy position to defend as though it is easy to explain, however, neither is the trinity doctrine an easy position to defend.

Consider the issue of who is the Father of Jesus? Should be an easy answer, well, of course, the Father is the Father, duh! Right? Yet, what does the scripture say?

Matt 1:18-20 (KJV)

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Now anyone trying to seperate the Father and the Holy Ghost have a real hard time explaining these verses. The bible says clearly twice here that she was found to be with child of the Holy Ghost. How do you explain that? Easy! 1 Tim 3:16 (KJV) It's a GREAT MYSTERY!

How can the Father speak from the heavens, while the Son is standing right there, as the sign of the Holy Ghost is manifest all at once? 1 Tim 3:16 (KJV)

I have read and studied for over 30 years on this subject, and neither side has convinced me that they know any more than Paul did, or any more than the bible says, and I say let God speak to us through His Word. I suspect that God is much more glorified by us loving one another than He is by us deciding that we somehow can explain this GREAT MYSTERY that the bible does not bother to explain.

Isaiah 44:6 (GW)

The Lord is Israel's king and defender.

He is the Lord of Armies.

This is what the Lord says:

I am the first and the last,

and there is no God except me.

Deut 6:4 (KJV)

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Matt 28:19-20 (KJV)

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 1:18 (KJV)

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 (KJV)

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 Tim 3:16 (KJV)

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Personally, I would be disappointed if any of us could really easily explain so great a mystery in a few paragraphs, oneness or trinity included.

[Mutzrein]

The nature of the invisible God. The explanation of the nature of the invisible God. The requirement that all accept the extra-biblical doctrine in it's entirity or they are in heresy. Why not agree with the scriptures?

1 Tim 3:16 (KJV)

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Could both sides of this agree that when it came to understanding mysteries, the Apostle Paul just might have a little deeper revelation than most of us? Yet, he calls this mystery GREAT.

Is it not a bit arrogant to argue over the nature of the Godhead?

Oneness is not an easy position to defend as though it is easy to explain, however, neither is the trinity doctrine an easy position to defend.

Consider the issue of who is the Father of Jesus? Should be an easy answer, well, of course, the Father is the Father, duh! Right? Yet, what does the scripture say?

Matt 1:18-20 (KJV)

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Now anyone trying to seperate the Father and the Holy Ghost have a real hard time explaining these verses. The bible says clearly twice here that she was found to be with child of the Holy Ghost. How do you explain that? Easy! 1 Tim 3:16 (KJV) It's a GREAT MYSTERY!

How can the Father speak from the heavens, while the Son is standing right there, as the sign of the Holy Ghost is manifest all at once? 1 Tim 3:16 (KJV)

I have read and studied for over 30 years on this subject, and neither side has convinced me that they know any more than Paul did, or any more than the bible says, and I say let God speak to us through His Word. I suspect that God is much more glorified by us loving one another than He is by us deciding that we somehow can explain this GREAT MYSTERY that the bible does not bother to explain.

Isaiah 44:6 (GW)

The Lord is Israel's king and defender.

He is the Lord of Armies.

This is what the Lord says:

I am the first and the last,

and there is no God except me.

Deut 6:4 (KJV)

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Matt 28:19-20 (KJV)

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 1:18 (KJV)

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 (KJV)

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 Tim 3:16 (KJV)

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Personally, I would be disappointed if any of us could really easily explain so great a mystery in a few paragraphs, oneness or trinity included.

Thankyou AnotherTraveler. I was wondering when we were going to get away from the posts that seem to be underlined with the feeling of 'You aint saved unless you believe as I do'.

The Lord bless you