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67 pushing 68, so you are not old enough to call me "son," which you have on more than one occasion. And be assured, there are many other oldsters on this forum besides us. So cut the patronizing crap and stick to the Bible. Oh, and "read your Bible" is another arrogant phrase you use that has no place here. Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

I understand that you believe this. You offer many arguments. Problem is I can't just take this on your word. I doesn't matter what percentage of people believe a certain thing. It make no difference what any other individual or group says or does, it only matters that we act responsibly when it comes to scripture. But I do agree with you, it's frustrating sometimes. And again, what's the scripture that equates the 1st seal, the whole week, half the week or GT, with God's wrath? I know you keep saying it and you are trying to be convincing, but why would I or anyone take your word for it? Rev 5:9-11 depicts the elders and the four living creatures singing a song. There are only 28 beings at this point singing a song of praise while holding vessels containing the prayers of the saints. Fact is we are redeemed by the blood here on earth out of every people group. That we are God's kings and priests is another fact already in force while we are here on earth. To wit: 1 Peter 2:9, "9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation". We are already kings and priests. Exodus 19:6, "...and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."(That's us, btw,) This whole God's wrath thing goes further afield at an exponential rate. Now the last 2000 years is God's wrath? I think this pretrib obsession has got you firmly gripped in it's gnarly claws. Time to get out. Seriously, is that even reasonable? I don't think so.

Do you believe the Saints that die in the tribulation are raptured also? What happens to them? How are they raptured after a pretrib rapture? They died for Christ. The dead in Christ are raptured first and then the living. The Saints that die in tribulation should go before any living.

Yes, I understand the TLB is not a translation, but a paraphrase, but I saw no conflict with scripture for the verses quoted. I most often use the KJV and NKJV and this is the first time I have ever quoted the TLB only because I thought the paraphrasing might better define the points I was making. I certainly chose the wrong person for that approach! Please feel free to substitute with whatever version you prefer as it does not change anything written above. As for cherry picking, I do not understand why you make that claim. The scriptures quoted support the points mentioned. And as for Gnostic origins to my reasoning, I am blown away! When you started your original post regarding God's curve ball. I thought "Great! Another believer who sees the the fallacy of science as a definitive source of truth" which the unbelieving world so blindly depends on to deny God and actual reality. I was eager to share my ideas along those lines with you thinking it would be an informative encounter! Somehow we passed each other in that regard! For the record. I am not gnostic, I agree 110% with everything you wrote, including it was my mistake to use the TLB, and I apologize for creating the impression you obviously have from post. My bad. Cheers

It shouldn't be much longer and you'll get to experience the how. Words don't seem to do much good.

Genesis 1:1 New International Version (NIV) The Beginning 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Cross references: Genesis 1:1 : Ps 102:25; Pr 8:23; Isa 40:21; 41:4, 26; Jn 1:1-2 Genesis 1:1 : ver 21, 27; Ge 2:3 Genesis 1:1 : ver 6; Ne 9:6; Job 9:8; 37:18; Ps 96:5; 104:2; 115:15; 121:2; 136:5; Isa 40:22; 42:5; 51:13; Jer 10:12; 51:15 Genesis 1:1 : Ge 14:19; 2Ki 19:15; Ne 9:6; Job 38:4; Ps 90:2; 136:6; 146:6; Isa 37:16; 40:28; 42:5; 44:24; 45:12, 18; Jer 27:5; 32:17; Ac 14:15; 17:24; Eph 3:9; Col 1:16; Heb 3:4; 11:3; Rev 4:11; 10:6 New International Version (NIV) Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide. Genesis 1:1 in all English translations Beginning - The dateless past when the dimension of time was created. Before that, God was existing in the infinite past time unable to be measured or observed. Heavens - More than one, indicating real places, not philosophical imaginings. Earth - Also known as dirt, soil, solid material, real matter, etc. When you cherry-pick translations, you can make the Bible say almost anything. The TLB isn't even a translation, it's a paraphrase. I would never use it to critique scientific experiments. I suspect your reasoning has gnostic origins. But that's just a guess. I take the Bible as literal as the language in context allows and I don't find it in contrast to science.

John 6:40 "And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. When is the last day? How can the rapture happen before the last day?

1 Thessalonians was a letter. There were originally no chapter or verse markers so it flows from 1 Thessalonians 4 into 1 Thessalonians 5 with no break. 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. The believers and saved are not in darkness. The Destruction comes upon them that are not saved. They are the ones who do not know it is coming.

This is not true according to pretrib rapture hypothesis. I Thess 4:15-18 is the great proof of a pretrib rapture. "15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words." Three signs precede the supposed pretrib rapture. The Lord descending with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God. Three prophesied happenings before the 'rapture'. I'd have to say 'signs' precede the 'rapture'.

Yes, these are Day of the Lord's wrath verses. I know, read them all previously. I'm asking where scripture equates the 70th week, or GT, or a half the week, with God's wrath. I know what God's wrath looks like from the above verses and others but I don't see where GT and Wrath are equivalent in time, space, purpose or result. Scripture separates the two in Matt 24. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days The tribulation of those days is GT. No other explanation is possible. shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Then the sign of the coming of the Son of man, after the luminaries of the heavens go dark, after which everyone sees Jesus coming in power and glory. This is the beginning of wrath. Its the same event described here: Rev 6 "12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" In parallel: Matt 24, shall the sun be darkened, Rev 6, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, Matt 24, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken... Rev 6, there was a great earthquake; Matt 24, and the stars shall fall from heaven... Rev 6, And the stars of heaven fell... For the great day of his wrath is come; And it comes AFTER the GT. Since wrath does not begin until after 'the tribulation of those days' and after the signs of His coming, how is it that wrath is the same as tribulation?

Something I noticed that we Christians can be unconsciously guilty and must be aware of .Note- I'm not trivializing the need for or impact of prayer . but i find sometimes we may not realize we maybe unintentionally pass up on opportunities to help or be there for people by only stepping back to pray for them

It would be better if you do the research first. Then post your findings............. ?

I don't find anything inconsistent between Christianity and science. I leave philosophy to philosophers. Philosophy is conjecture. I do understand what you're saying. That the very nature of observation effects the observed. A variation of if a tree falls in the woods, ... I need more time to process your reply which I can tell you put much thought in. My mind is presently clouded with cobwebs from medication for a migraine that I can't give your reply the justice it is due. I'll try again tomorrow.

Hi Cletus, Tribulation saints is a label many have given to the people who die in the tribulation. There are so many they cannot be counted.

The expected end is an immortal resurrected new body.

Prayer is sometimes the best thing we can do. When a person is being attacked by the enemy as in your illustration, and they are without hope, we can't do much but God can. The person on the phone should have offered more opportunity to listen to his friend, through, had he been more sensitive. Sometimes a person most needs a friend to talk to. We can't always be there in person. We have had people on worthy who repeatedly say they have survived suicide attempts. These people also need Christian professional help. A good many survivors are looking for attention. The people who are serious about it will most often do it in such a way that there is absolutely no way a person can survive. But all thoughts of suicide need to be taken seriously and family and authorities should be informed.

Pro_17:17 A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity. Pro_27:9 Ointment and perfume rejoice the heart: so doth the sweetness of a man's friend by hearty counsel. Pro_18:24 A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticks closer than a brother.

I don't think you missed anything. This is a troublesome truth for the pretrib doctrine and difficult to adjudicate in a satisfactory manner. To add to the above I have posed a question several times that is ignored as the doctrine cannot answer this all important query. For one, the pretrib doctrine supposed the last week is equivalent to the wrath of God. This is unsupported and therefore a false premise. But it allows for a pretrib rapture as, "we are not appointed to wrath", which is true. Attached to the false equivalency of 70th=wrath then, Rapture=pretrib. Internal consistency, false conclusion. But again, this reasoning allows for the pretrib rapture. According to the doctrine then all the 70th week is God's wrath, or as some depart from this, only the second half is Gods' wrath. In the second half the GT takes place and as you quoted above, "I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14" an innumerable host of believers stand before the throne and around the throne. Pretrib's doctrine demands this group of believers arrive in the throne room after enduring the wrath of God. This question can be added to the Who? and Where? queries from the OP: If pretrib doctrine equates the GT and God's wrath, and the church escapes this time through "we are not appointed to wrath", then how is it a vast group of believers endured God's wrath to stand before the throne in heaven? This dives right into the segregation of the body as you stated. Where is this segregation supported by scriptural fact? I would also like to touch on this 'church age' thing. The dispensation of grace and faith is the origin of the church age, so it's said. We have moved out of the dispensation of law and we now enjoy grace. What freedom! No longer under the law the path to God is now through Christ and not burdensome liturgy and ritual. I don't buy it. It has always been faith and grace. Job was justified by faith. The original patriarch of the congregation was counted as righteous because of faith in God's word and by the grace of the almighty Lord. If we are in Christ we are of the seed of Abraham with all the attendant promises and warnings. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile. The seekers of El Shaddai will know this through the Spirit of God; there has never been any segregation in the body of Christ from the foundation of the world. It has always been Jesus Christ, it is now all about Jesus, and it will always be about Jesus, forever. "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."" This is for every soul from every age. There is no 'church age', no segregation of the 'church', the 'body', OT saints, nor GT saints. "If You Are Christ’s, Then You Are Abraham’s Seed. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." This alone should put the matter to rest.

After Quantum Mechanics Copenhagen Interpretation (which is the most consistently validated theory of QM), there should be no mystery. The evidence and validity through repeated experimental attempts to disprove this interpretation, which just achieves the opposite by further reconfirming it shows the lengths science will go to to deny what is obvious. Physical experience does not exist in any shape or form physically, until the moment of observation. No particle associated with matter is real, and because of observation interference, we cannot even know matters exact nature. It is "uncertain". Further, it only appears in the moment of observation according to our expectations; are we looking to see matter or instead energy, and which of these we intend to observe is all we do observe. We can never see both at the same "time". So the real question is, if nothing material exists until an observation is made, and that "nothing material" includes everything with properties associated with matter (that means you, I, and every other human, including our brains and ability to make observations via our five physical senses) QM is demanding an original, fundamental Observer. Otherwise how can matter appear real at all? It simply can't, again, because it does not exist independently. It must first be observed to materialize. No wonder science wants to disprove this! Hebrews 11:1-3. Living Bible (TLB) What is faith? It is the confident assurance that something we want is going to happen. It is the certainty that what we hope for is waiting for us, even though we cannot see it up ahead. 2 Men of God in days of old were famous for their faith.By faith—by believing God—we know that the world and the stars—in fact, all things—were made at God’s command; and that they were all made from things that can’t be seen. [Jeremiah 33:25 Living Bible (TLB) But this is the Lord’s reply: I would no more reject my people than I would change my laws of night and day, of earth and sky. These versus tell us two critical things about this universe and all it contains, that what is made is madefrom what is not visible, and that the laws that govern night, day, Earth and sky and all that is physical are God's laws, what science calls the laws of nature and which science so diligently expends every effort to discover, like QM and the ongoing study of matter and energy at their most foundational physical levels....except, Oooops!, they don't exist at that level! How then can anything exist physically at any level? Nothing can. Now just because the QM world consists of phantom stuff associated with the properties of matter does not mean we can't see them. In other words these are NOT the things that can't be seen that make up what is made per Hebrews 11:3. We do see the QM level of reality via the instruments we invent to measure, quantify, and identify all this QM stuff. This confirms then these are NOT what 11:3 refers to as can't be seen. What then is there that is not visible, that can't be seen, yet makes up all that is made in this universe? It's the "Original" observer, for without that observation, nothing physical could be made, again, including us. Obviously, at least for us believers, that original observer Is God the Father, the Word, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Genesis 1 Living Bible (TLB) 1 When God began creating[a] the heavens and the earth, 2 the earth was[b] a shapeless, chaotic mass,* with the Spirit of God brooding over the dark vapors.* 3 Then God said, “Let there be light.” And light appeared. 4-5 And God was pleased with it and divided the light from the darkness. He called the light “daytime,” and the darkness “nighttime.” Together they formed the first day.[c] 6 And God said, “Let the vapors separate[d] to form the sky above and the oceans below.” 7-8 So God made the sky, dividing the vapor above from the water below. This all happened on the second day.[e] 9-10 Then God said, “Let the water beneath the sky be gathered into oceans so that the dry land will emerge.” And so it was. Then God named the dry land “earth,” and the water “seas.” And God was pleased. Note that the very first physical thing God made was light. Light is an absolutely key element in Physics, Classical and Quantum. It is inherent in all forms of matter and all forms of energy (the Electromagnetic Spectrum). Now, if neuroscience ever becomes aware of QM, then maybe we will get a "real theory" of everything, because at our physical level, nothing can exist for us until our own "moments" of observation which are impossible without God's observation. That Theory of Everything? It will begin like this: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Actually we can define this better by thinking in terms of consciousness instead of observation, although they are complimentary. What can exist without our consciousness? Certainly God's Consciousness. He has always existed and has always been God. When will science get it? Cheers

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, The last generation of the church will persevere just as the first did. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, So...414, the fifth seal promises God's wrath, the sixth seal portends God's wrath, the sealing of the 144,000 protects them through God's wrath, the innumerable multitude find themselves safe having been removed from the sphere of God's wrath, the seventh seal pronounces God's wrath, the half hour of silence in Heaven contemplates God's wrath, the blowing of the first trumpet initiates God's wrath. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, So...414, I suppose if we use your logic, when Jesus said "I will build my church", as recorded in Matt 16, that He was referring to some other "secret church" (like, maybe the one caught up in the "secret rapture") because, to quote you, "The Church was still a mystery at this point". Also, if we follow your reasoning, we must conclude that when Jesus told the 11 that He would come again and receive them unto Himself, He wasn't referring to them as representatives of the future church (they being the founding members), because, as you say, "The Church was still a mystery at this point". If your reasoning is consistent, you must believe that the promise of John 14:3 was only for the eleven to whom it was originally spoken. What a tangled web we weave ... . I marvel that I once believed such foolishness as you now teach. I find it utterly amazing that tens of millions of believers can be so indoctrinated into an eschatological system of understanding that they readily wrest the Scriptures in an attempt to support their escapism. Even worse is that they have been taught that such wrangling of the Scriptures is faithful exegesis. They have taken Paul's command to rightly divide and equated it to the practice of making every text conform to their artificially derived eschatological model. That is called eisegesis, reading into the text. So...414, Jesus asked questions, may I ask you a few questions. Do you agree that the period of God's eschatological wrath is called the day of the Lord throughout the Holy Scriptures? In relation to the seventieth week, or any other eschatological event, when does the day of the Lord take place? Please know that I'm not just asking for your opinion, I would hope that you support your answers from the Holy Writ. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

If I am a false prophet then scripture is false as well. Since scripture is truth and the exemplar of rational experience, what I say in this matter is not false. I read and repeat. I don't create. I get that you don't like it. The reality is a tough one. I don't like it either. No sentient, rational creature wants to experience the coming trials. But the Lord said it would happen and has promised to keep watch over those that trust in Him, if we keep the word of His patient enduring. Please come out of this and repent and trust in God and His promises.

All who try to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 2Ti 3:10 But you have closely followed my doctrine, the conduct, the purpose, the faith, the long-suffering, the love, the patient endurance, 2Ti 3:11 the persecutions, the sufferings, such as happened to me in Antioch, in Iconium, in Lystra, what persecutions I bore. And the Lord delivered me out of all. 2Ti 3:12 And, indeed, all desiring to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. Your co workers are not your enemy. The battle is spiritual. Eph 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord, and in the strength of his might. Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. Eph 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world’s rulers of the darkness of this age, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Eph 6:13 Therefore put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having done all, to stand. Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having the utility belt of truth buckled around your waist, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, Eph 6:15 and having fitted your feet with the preparation of the Good News of peace; Eph 6:16 above all, taking up the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the evil one. Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 1Co 10:13 No temptation has taken you except what is common to man. God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation also make the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

My friend, there is a difference in actually providing the evidence of one's positions; often supported historically; logically and biblically and being as you say: "brainwashed." The RCC did more than define what the Bible would USE; it IS Catholics who AUTHORED the entire New Testament. That my friend goes a very-LONG-way it explaining just exactly WHAT the Bible is {to be used for. Easter Blessings, Patrick

MY introductory only REPLY {TO THE UNKNOWN PASTOR} Dear friend is Christ, With a bit of trepidation, I, God willing will reply to your LENGHTY 31points POST because it is the very bedrock; the very foundation of Catholicism; and hence Christianity. My trepidation stems from multiple rebukes on the length of my replies; without, I think; any consideration to the length of the POST I’m replying too; and the number of salient issues addressed and worthy of an informed-Catholic response. So sit back and get comfortable; this will take me a few days; what with family obligations, OTHER Faith-teaching responsibilities & 31 points to fully address. While God’s Truth requires that I respond, I would like to acknowledge the POSTERS effort; supported by what is supposed to be “facts.” I shall attempt with God’s assistance to reply with a similar organization and provide ALSO the evidences that affirm Catholic Dogma. To set the platform for our discussion, I share the following points for immediate reflection: 1. Catholic Holy Communion; the Eucharist wrought by a recent theological term used to describe what takes place {Transubstantiation} is: FROM God the Father OF God the Son BY God the Holy Spirit 2. The issue at hand revolves around God’s TRUTH. For the sake of absolute clarity I therefore share the following about God’s TRUTHS. a. There cannot {it’s impossible} as Pope Benedict XVI explained the day he became Pope: “There cannot be your truth & my truth or there would be NO truth.” b. Father John A. Hardon S.J.; one of the most respected theologians of the 20th. Century taught this about God’s- truth: “TRUTH is the condition of grace; it is the source of grace; it is the channel of grace; it is the Divinely Ordained requirement of grace.” c. And as TRUTH is “The CRUX of the Matter”; I offer the following dictionary definition of “TRUTH” as the foundation of our discussions. Dictionary Definition of “Truth” 1. The true or actual state of a matter: conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement 2. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like mathematical truths. 3. the state or character of being true. 4. actuality or actual existence. 5. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude. 6. honesty; integrity; truthfulness. 7. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience: 8. agreement with a standard or original. 9.. accuracy, as of position or adjustment. 10. Archaic. Fidelity or constancy. End quotes As in the past, I will number and address the [31] points that I feel merit a response 3 The Bible is a Catholic Church birthed book. It was the early Catholic Fathers who amidst much debate & guided by the Holy Spirit; selected the 46 OT books to be included. Then it was men known today {6 of them Apostles} who authored the entire NT. Again guided by that ever-present HS to His Church. Mt 28:18-20 {this is a separate discussion if you choose; I’m just laying my foundation here.} So my new friend that is as much as I can offer for now. Know that you POST has been gratefully received and read; and that God willing I shall reply ASAP. I’m 73 and my bride of 50 years and I both have some health issues that require out-of-town doctoring; plus we are Blessed with four Great-grandkids; ages 5, 3 , 18mos and 4 months; who love to spend time with “Gramee and Popee”. I will be working as time permits {as a priority} on your POST. Easter Blessings and thanks for the opportunity and patience. Patrick