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I have generally understood the term "the church fathers" as referring to those within a couple of generations of the apostles. Like basically no further removed from an apostle than a disciple of a disciple of an apostle, so sometimes not even referring to a  length of time in years, as much as it is an attempt to keep the teaching more faithful to apostolic teaching.

If we had the original autographs (the hand written writings of the New Testament authors), we would be as close to the fathers in terms or reliable teaching, as they were. However, most of what we have for texts, is copies of copies of copies, that do not date back that far, and are mostly fragments.

That is where a lot of the value of the church fathers comes in, since we can look at their writings, and see quotations that they made, backing up what we see in our modern Bibles.

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2 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

This is great!

Thank you Rusty!

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I find it curious that everyone wholeheartedly agrees that the "Trinity" cannot be explained being a total mystery, but then attempt to explain it, even titling the conversation 'trinity explained'.  Because the actual word 'trinity' is not to be found anywhere in scripture, I would suggest that is a fairly good reason why it cannot be explained, certainly not from scripture anyway. As for analogies, as everyone also agrees, there is no perfect analogy either...why? Maybe because the entire concept of trinity is a mere product of man's over-active imagination?

Allow me if you will, to offer my explanation, not of a 'trinity' as proposed in the Nicean creed, but of the 'Godhead' of scripture, using only scripture as support, and no need of analogies. The result , for those who choose to believe the scriptures given, will not be shrouded in so much mystery, and our God will be revealed in a far more understandable and glorious way.

It is really a matter of the weight of evidence. Compare the very few obscure texts used that vaguely point to a trinity, with the following.

1. There is no explicit or implicit statement in scripture indicating 3 co-equal, co-eternal beings.

2. Nowhere is there a text saying either God the Son, or God the Father.

3. John 1:1 clearly states that the Son is divine. He is divine be reason of His having been begotten of His Father Who is divine. The Son was to be worshiped by angels (Hebrews 1:6, and by men (Phil. 2:10). The Father of course was clearly identified as God our Father. (Rom 1:7; 1Cor.1:3; 2Cor.1:2;Eph.1:2;Phil.1:2;Col.1:2;etc)

4. There is no scripture in all the Bible instructing us to pray to, glorify, give thanks to, or exalt the Holy Spirit. There is no account anywhere of any being offering worship to the Holy Spirit by name. Christ came to teach man about the nature of God and the truth of God, yet not once taught us to worship the a third divine being. On the contrary, we see in Revelation 5 the following....13  And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

5. Jesus only prayed to His Father, never to another being by name, and instructed His disciples to do likewise. (Matt.6:10, John 15:16, 16:23)

6. We are to pray for the Holy Spirit, but never to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a gift.

Luke 11:13  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
 

Acts 2:33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
 

7.  The Holy Spirit is everywhere described as His Spirit, or the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Father, or the Spirit of Christ. Even on occasion My Spirit, suggesting that rather than being a third person, is in fact the actual omnipresence of the Father and/or of Christ. In Matthew 12:18, Luke 4:18, and Romans 8:11 the Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. In 1 Peter 1:10-11 the Spirit is the Spirit of Christ as the inspiration of the old testament prophets.

8. The Father is the Supreme Sovereign God. Jesus called His Father 'the only true God' John 17:3)

9. Paul said 1 Cor. 8:6  But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him, and also Eph 4: 6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

10. We were created by the Father, through the Son. (1 Cor. 8:6; Eph.3:9; Col. 1:12-16 Heb. 1:1-3.)

Paul says 'For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ....(it is the Father Who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life).....of Whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named. The family is named after the Father. (Eph. 3:14,15) It is the name of the Father and the name of His city that will be upon the foreheads of those who enter the city.

11. God is everywhere referred to as He, His, or Him. Never they, theirs, or them. Revel. 14:7 Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

12. The Father is the God of Christ. (John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 1 Cor. 11:3; 2 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 11:31; Eph. 1:3,17; Col. 1:3; Heb. 1:9; 1 Peter 1:3; Revel. 1:6). The following statement was made by Jesus a long while after His physical sojourn on earth....Revel. 3:12  Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13. The kingdom of God is the kingdom of the Father...Christ was and always will be subordinate to the Father's authority. (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Matt. 26:29; 6:13)

14. We are reconciled to the Father through His Son. (Col. 1:19,20)

15. Christ came to reveal the character of the Father that men might be lead to worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth. (John 4:21-23)

16. Jesus was sent by His Father, never did He say He was sent by the Spirit. (John 5:23,30,36,37; 6:39,44,57; 8:16,29,42; 10:36; 12:49; 17:21; 20:21; 1John 4:14)

17. If one reads the Bible he/she can interchange the words God and Father with comfort...not so Holy Spirit or Jesus.

18. Proverbs 8:22-30 is a powerful indication that Jesus was begotten of the Father prior to His incarnation.

19. 1 Tim 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus...The Father communicates to man through Christ, and through Him only. If we think or say that God communicates to us through a third being, the Holy Spirit, then we contradict the only mediatorial role of Christ.

20. Revel. 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.....salvation belongs to the Father and the Son, where is the trinity here?

21. Christians are keen, and rightly so, to describe their faith as a relationship. Two divine beings are in this relationship...1 John 2:24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.....1 John 1:3  That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus said "I and My Father are one". He prayed that we would be one with the Father and Son in the same manner. Nowhere are we told to be one with the Holy Spirit. (John 10:30; 17:11,21,22,23).

22. The Father forgives. (Matt. 6:12,14,15). Christ also forgives, because He has received all authority from His Father. See John 5:22.

23. Where is the trinity here....

John 17:1 ¶  These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

24. Paul said this ten times in the NT..."Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." Where is the trinity here?

25. Coll. 2:2,3  That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;  In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge....why no Holy Spirit mentioned?

26. Christ said that no-one, not even Himself, except the Father, knew when Jesus would return. Yet the Holy Spirit "searches all the deep things of God" 1 Cor 2:10. Why would the Holy Spirit not know?

27. 1 Thess. 4:8  He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us His Holy Spirit.  If, according to the trinity, the Father is God...the Son is God...and the Holy Spirit is God, then Who is the giver in this verse? Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. Confused? Yes it is confusing. But that confusion is cleared away if we recognise Gof as our heavenly Father, giving us His Spirit, His presence and power.

 

There is much more I could add. But when one considers the weight of evidence, this should be a strong beginning showing that non-trinitarians' point of view is not pulled out of thin air or any vague mysterious verses that can be interpreted in many ways. Hardly the stuff of heresy as suggested in so many trinity apologetics. What I have shown above may not be the teaching of the church, but it is the teaching of scripture.


 


 

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On 3/30/2013 at 5:39 PM, SonofLight said:

The Truth is there is no Trinity; this has been a doctrine that has infiltrated the church since 325 AD in the Council of Nicea. Some of the church fathers of old like Tertullian brought this heresy into the church till they had to have a council of the bishops to discuss the creed. Which was later indoctrinated into the Apostles Creed. God is Spirit and not flesh however he dwelt in the fullness of Christ bodily making Jesus Emanuelle God with us. Jesus is his one and only begotten Son not adopted like we are. Jesus is the only person in the Godhead and the Holy Spirit is God He is Spirit and He is holy, the only eternal being. With no beginning and no end. Its obvious that Jesus had a beginning and that was his bodily appearance almost 2000 years ago. However he existed in the bosom of God or Spirit of God from all eternity but was spoken into being at his advent. Jesus Christ (Yeshua) was the spoken word manifested unto us as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. Hallelujah. Any further explanation can be made if needed...

You can explain all you want. There is a trinity and you are in deep trouble if you don't believe that. I'll pray for you>

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And yet there is only one " unpardonable" sin & that is to blaspheme Holy Spirit...so.to grieve a "Gift" would cause reprobate?

There are many Words that are not mentioned in the Bible:rapture,atheism,Divinity,Incarnation,monoTheism,omniscience,omnipotence,omnipresence & even Bible....so are the concepts desrcibed non existent or just over active imaginations......that is a poor excuse 

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From what I see in this thread, "the Trinity Explained" should read "the Trinity Explained Away" for the repeated attempt is made to do just that.

The nature of God is easily explained when we fully accept what the Word of God says.

There is one God. Deuteronomy 6:4. Isaiah 45:5-6, 21-22 and 46:9

The Father is God. John 1:1-2 -- 1 John 1:1-2

The Son is God. Colossians 1:16 -- Genesis 1:1 -- Isaiah 44:24

The Holy Spirit is God. Genesis 1:2 -- Acts 5:3-4

Detractors ask:

How can that be?

The same way a family of three is one family. Most have accepted the fact that a family is a unity of plurality. A plurality of persons or individuals making up one unit.

Apparently (according to scripture) God is a unity of plurality.

Further, the Bible indicates this plurality of persons (individuals) in God by stating things unique to each which the other two did not do:

All indication of scripture is that Jesus (preincarnate) is the lone Creator of all things created with one exception: 

His body (Hebrews 10:5).

John 1:14 (AV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This (highlighted) and Hebrews 1:5 and Hebrews 10:5 (and Old Testament scriptures quoted such as Psalm 2:7) are the only indications we have that the Father created anything.  The only thing the Father created is the body of the Son (which God the Word became in the incarnation).

Either that or the highlighted is simply untrue.

Luke 3:38 (AV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

There are more, Genesis 6:2-4 -- Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7 all speaking of the "sons of God."

There is so much more evidence in scripture... what has become called the doctrine of the Trinity is one of the few things man has gotten right about scripture (no thanks to man). 

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History reveals a very much dubious origin for the trinity doctrine. Forced upon the church by the Roman clergy after having been approved by a pagan emperor; formulated 300 years or more after the apostles; not taught explicitly anywhere in scripture thus an assumed doctrine; believers in other views or perspectives of the Godhead lied about and persecuted; pronounced as the foundation upon which all other doctrines of Rome are based;

That to my mind is sufficient evidence to reject it utterly. Is there no-one who dares to disagree with my previous post above and the mountain of scriptural evidence against the trinity?

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I think, for the most part, people make this far more difficult that it really is!

Are we not a triune being ourselves? We are spirit, soul and body.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely. And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
We ARE a spirit. We live for now in an "earth suit," and flesh and blood body.  Our spirit possesses a soul. Our soul is out mind, intellect, memories, will, emotions and affections. It is interesting to note, the rich man and Lazarus both had all these soulish things after death, proving they go with the Spirit. In truth, our spirit and soul are tied very closely together, so close, ONLY the word of God can separate them.
 
So when we choose, or decide something, that is our SOUL.
When we perform something, that is our body.
When we breath and are alive, that is our spirit. Our spirit is the life, and our soul makes each life different.
Is my spirit man ME? Yes, of course! He is certainly not YOU! He lives in my body!
Is my soul me? Certainly he is! His is all my thoughts, emotions, memories, and will.  But he is ME.
Is my body me? Yes, it is the part you see. I could say, LOOK AT ME, and my body is what you would see:
Am I three persons? No, I am ONE person, but made up of Spirit, soul and body.
 
Is it not written that we are made in the image of God and after His likeness?
Then God also is a spirit being, possessing a soul and a body. One difference is that God always had a spiritual body until the 2nd person of the Godhead came to earth to take on a flesh and blood body. He was the SEEN part of God in the Old Covenant, so the "body" part of God.  He was the VOICE of God always. He is the very one who said, "Light BE" and light came into existence.
 
But the POWER of God is the Holy Spirit. He is the one that created the Light after the WORD spoke.
 
But even before the Word spoke, the Word KNEW what the WILL of God was: to created light. So knowing the WILL of God, which comes from the soul part of God, the WORD spoke, "Light BE" And the Spirit of God created light.
 
So God the Father is the SOUL part of God, being the WILL of God.
God the WORD is the body part of God; the one who came to earth to become the Redeemer.
The Holy Spirit is the SPIRIT part of God.
 
Is the Holy Spirit God? Most certainly!
Is Father God, God? Most certainly!
is Jesus Christ God? Most certainly.
 
They are our Triune Godhead, Spirit, Soul and Body, Holy Spirit, Father God, and Jesus Christ.  They are three aspects of ONE BEING.
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13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

 

While it is true that the word "trinity" does not appear in scripture. I offer this SCRIPTURAL account of the Baptism of Jesus. At the momet after His baptism, Jesus was still in the water right here on Earth. At that same moment, the Spirit of God was descending like a dove. At that very same moment, a voice comes out of Heaven. What that voice says, indicates the speaker is God the Father. Now, for those who maintain there is NOT a Trinity, how do you scientifically (or any other way), explain three separate manifestations of God in three different physical locations at the same time. Now that is directly from SCRIPTURE. Arguments?

The best analogy of the trinity that I have is from the world of geometry (since I am a math professor). Consider the simple equilateral triangle. It has 3 separate sides and 3 separate but equal angles. It IS only one triangle, yet it has 3 separate sides and 3 separate angles. Since it is equilateral, the sides are all equal and the angles happen to be equal as well. How does this apply to the trinity? Well, there IS only one God (which complies with Scripture), BUT, there are 3 separate functions and ministries (sides and angles).

And with all of this explanation, I agree with those who have classified this as a mystery. So while I understand the illustration, I am willing to just be thankful that Jesus died for me and is now my advocate with the Father. I am overjoyed that the Holy Spirit's function is to guide me into all truth. I am also very glad that the Holy Spirit lives within me as a spiritual force for good in my life.

According to scripture, believing in the trinity is NOT the test for getting into heaven....believing in and confessing Jesus as Lord and Savior meets that requirement. But I find it comforting to my own personal spirit to know and think of God as my Father, who loves me and is interested in my life. For those who consider me a heretic or an idolater, please be Christ-like and forgive me. You cannot see, nor know the peace that I have in my heart.

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On 1/3/2017 at 11:06 PM, brakelite said:

History reveals a very much dubious origin for the trinity doctrine. Forced upon the church by the Roman clergy after having been approved by a pagan emperor; formulated 300 years or more after the apostles; not taught explicitly anywhere in scripture thus an assumed doctrine; believers in other views or perspectives of the Godhead lied about and persecuted; pronounced as the foundation upon which all other doctrines of Rome are based;

That to my mind is sufficient evidence to reject it utterly. Is there no-one who dares to disagree with my previous post above and the mountain of scriptural evidence against the trinity?

History? How about the Word of God? How about taking God at his word?

History can be revised and influenced by demonic forces arrayed against God and the truth.

Say there was a pagan version of a three headed god several thousand years before the Bible was recorded.

So what?

The devil has seen the triune God. So he tries to confuse and confound the truth in any way he can. Making fodder for your very argument these thousands of years later.

Without the doctrine of the Trinity, the Bible is fraught with contradictions about God (God's nature).

Adam is the son of God (Luke 3:38), no Jesus is the only Son of God (John 1:14)... No one has ever seen God at any time (John 1:18 / 1 John 4:12) yet many have seen God (Genesis 32:30 / Judges 13:22-23 / Exodus 24:11).

And God with God in the scripture tells you nothing of God's plurality of persons?

John 1:1–2 (AV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

1 John 1:1–2 (AV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Genesis 1:1–2 (AV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

 

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