Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

[wingnut-]

Baptism by water is not a requirement according to scripture, obviously though we are baptised with the Holy Spirit upon accepting Christ which is necessary for salvation.

[Jayyycuuup]

Difficulty's lol..... So this is towards your post to me Selene.......

I don't think so, your making your basis off of what Jesus told his disciples. If Christ meant what you are saying then He would have said he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned. But that is not what it says, Christ only say's he who does not believe.....so your adding to what he said. Do you have anything else to add to your claim ?

I do, that states all you have to do is accept Christ and you shall live for eternity with our Lord !

John 5:35 And Jesus said to them "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."

John 5:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." --By saying that you have to be baptized in order to be saved would be holding your own interpretation above the words of Christ, He states that whoever COMES to Me, shall not be cast out i.e not be saved.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Scripture never said "he who believeth not and is not baptize will be damned." Those words "is not baptized" is not found in the second part of the biblical verse. You are the only one who put it there. Baptism was never excluded because 1) it was God Himself who ordered baptism, 2) Christ Himself felt it was important to have Himself baptize despite that He had no sin, 3) Christ continued to allow His disciples to baptize even after St. John the Baptist was beheaded by King Herod, and 4) Jesus told His Apostles that those who believed and are baptize will be saved. Christ did not have to put in "is not baptize" in the second part of what He said. If God feels that baptism was not necessary, He would not have gone through all the trouble to do all those 4 things I mentioned.

You just made my point. You are trying to say I was adding to scripture, but your highly wrong, my point being is that if Christ meant what you are saying then he would have said those who do not believe and are not baptized will not be saved, but it does not mean that,. nor say that. Concluding that all you have to be is saved in order to go to heaven.

Now you are trying to add to what I said, is baptism necessary ? Absolutely !! Is it a, if you dont you go to hell ? NO !! Your making your basis off of one verse that does not support your claim, I gave and still can give several more verses where Christ, and others say all you have to be is saved to enter the kingdom of God.

[Sevenseas]

Yes Baptism is necessary for salvation, but most bank on the wrong baptism. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, But scriptures says that we are ALL baptised in the same Spirit, this baptism is the One that is necessary for salvation, some sprinkle some inmerge. But this is not the baptism for salvation, John baptised with Water, but preached that there was one coming after him, that would baptize with Spirit and fire, Jesus said that John merely baptised water, but that He would soon baptize with Spirit and fire, and Paul in acts 19 preached that the spiritual baptism was the one that was necessary, and even preached to some that they needed the Spiritual Baptism even after they had received the baptism of john!

Just to be clear please, are you stating that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation (ie with speaking in tongues etc)

Thanks

I can't answer for our brother, but if I am add that when we accept Christ as our Savior, He imparts in us His Holy Spirit where we are filled with His Spirit at that moment. This is not necessarily accompanied with speaking in tongues as found in Acts, though it may happen at the same time.

I agree...but some people believe that if you do NOT speak in tongues as evidence, then you are not truly saved.

At any rate, I really am not sure what hisdisciple is saying? So just wanted some clarification

Thanks

[gdemoss]

2Cr 3:7 ¶ But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Hbr 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[Sevenseas]

My brother, I am a Catholic. Catholics don't believe in the "I am saved once and for all" thing. We believe that we are in the process of being saved. We understand that salvation can be lost. We also believe that salvation comes ONLY from God; and therefore, ONLY He makes the decision of who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. Afterall, He can have mercy on whomever He wants to have mercy.

Well, let's look at that for the sake of other posters because I am not getting into a debate with this poster

The Catholic Church also teaches that those baptized persons who embrace heretical or schismatic sects will lose their souls. Jesus founded His Church upon St. Peter, as we saw already, and declared that whoever does not hear the Church be considered as the heathen and publican (Matthew 18:17). He also commanded His followers to observe “all things whatsoever” He has commanded (Matthew 28:20). The Eastern schismatic sects (such as the “Orthodox”) and the Protestant sects are breakoff movements that have separated from the Catholic Church. By separating themselves from the one Church of Christ, they leave the path of salvation and enter the path of perdition.

These sects obstinately and pertinaciously reject one or more of the truths that Christ clearly instituted, such as the Papacy (Matthew 16; John 21; etc.), Confession (John 20:23), the Eucharist (John 6:54), and other dogmas of the Catholic Faith. In order to be saved one must assent to all the things which the Catholic Church, based on Scripture and Tradition, has infallibly defined as dogmas of the Faith.

Below are just a few of the infallible dogmas of the Catholic Faith which are rejected by Protestants and (in the case of the Papacy) by the Eastern “Orthodox.” The Church “anathematizes” (a severe form of excommunication) all who obstinately assert the contrary to its dogmatic definitions.

Read more here:http://onetruecathol...alvation&page=2

Apparently, Rome has decided who is saved and if you are not Catholic and bend the knee to the Pope, you will not be accepted

So, it becomes somewhat useless to continue about the meaning of a word when the actual dialogue, behind the scenes, is

the Pope telling a Christian in the Protestant church that you are not saved to begin with irregardless of what you think the

word really means

[gdemoss]

A note about baptisms and birth:

That which is natural comes first then that which is spiritual. This is a key underlying fundamental biblical truth that helps to guide us in understanding that which is spiritual. Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again. Born of water and spirit.

When a baby prepares to exit its mothers womb the water breaks and before long the baby follows. Upon coming into the world the baby takes its first breath and begins its journey in life. Here we see the water and the spirit (breath). But we must be born again.

When the gospel message comes to someone and they come to believe there is a defining moment of conversion where the new believer repents and turns toward God and brings forth fruit meet for repentance. Afterword, Jesus sends the Holy Spirit to come upon the person. This is the spiritual water and the spirit, the immersing in water that we do is to aid the one who believes by taking a carnal practical application to associate their minds with what happened inwardly. The washing of regeneration or the baptism of the new birth is absolutely necessary for salvation, with or without a baptismal or river carnal dunking associated with it.

Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?

This scripture happens on the heals of Jesus first miracle, turning water into wine. The wedding in Cana inspired Nicodemus to come to Jesus by night and inquire of him about salvation as he was persuaded by the miracle preformed prior. Jesus is merely expounding upon his miracle in Cana at the wedding. The significance of his miracle was that he took water and turned it into wine inside of pots used for Jewish purification rituals. All of this showing what Jesus would do in the future. He would take the baptism of John, the baptism by water unto repentance and turn it into the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Remember it is written, be not drunk with wine wherein is excess but be filled with the spirit, and in another place we are all made to drink into one spirit, and again that wine was given to make the heart merry.

The significance of Jesus being baptized by John is often overlooked because our modern day methods of baptism pale in comparison to the real meaty baptism John offered. If we go out beyond Jordan where John was baptizing we get a better picture of what was going on. Droves of people were coming out of Jerusalem and Judea to seek to be baptized by him for the remission of sins but John had requirements that must be met before he would baptize you. You had to bring forth fruit meet for repentance. He refused to baptize the Pharisees and scribes because they had no fruit.

When John would baptize someone, they would approach him in the river and begin crying out loud confessing their sin before God and creation while calling upon the name of God for salvation. When finished John would immerse them and send them on their way. So we see a long line of people desiring to get right with God all crying out with strong crying and then we see Jesus. Without a word, as he has nothing to confess, is baptized by John and he comes out of the water and the Holy Spirit descends upon him in the shape of a dove and he is baptized and given power, the heavens being opened up unto him. Truly amazing. I wish we still baptized this way.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[firestormx]

I agree...but some people believe that if you do NOT speak in tongues as evidence, then you are not truly saved.

At any rate, I really am not sure what hisdisciple is saying? So just wanted some clarification

Thanks

Really? Wow, I have never heard that. that has really blown my mind. I can't believe someone would say that. The thief on the cross never spoken in tongues and he went to heaven. I've always thought of the work of the Holy Spirit as 2 sepreate works, 1 at salvation one at recieving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Which is why Christ blew on the disciples and said recieve the Holy Spirit ( when they got saved ) , and then told them to tarry until they recieve power from on high. ) That Everyone who has been saved has the Holy Spirit within, and everyone who has the Baptism of the holy spirit has the Holy Spirit within and upon both. Which is why the bible talks about having the Holy Spirit upon and within , because there 2 differant things.The differance being both are saved, 1 is empowered for service 1 is not.

I can't imagine how that must make someone feel. Sevenseas I hope nobody ever made you feel like that. God bless

[OneLight]

You are looking at the wrong baptism. It is not water baptism that we need for salvation, but the baptism Jesus came to give. When Jesus went to be baptized by John, John refused at first, claiming he needed to be baptized by Jesus, knowing what this other baptism meant. Jesus replied.

Matthew 3:13-15

"Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”

But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him."

What is the fulfillment of righteousness Jesus speaks of? The fulfillment of prophecy and obedience to the Father.

The difference between the two are described by John earlier in verse 11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Baptism is a symbol of repentance through obedience to God. It does nothing to the spirit and soul but allow it to be obedient to God, knowing they are in His will. What does remove our sin is the sacrifice of Christ, His blood atonement.

The baptism Paul spoke of in Colossians 2:11-12 is not water baptism, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In an earlier post, you mentioned that man must be born of water and spirit, which is true, but I implied that water part was the birth water from the mothers womb, while bringing a new baby into this world, not water baptism as you implied. The mothers water, resembling the natural birth of a child, and the Spiritual birth after being baptized with the Holy Spirit upon salvation, is what was being spoken of.

My brother, there is only one baptism.....a baptism of both water and spirit together. You cannot have baptism of only the spirit or a baptism of only water. The Holy Bible says it must be both.

According to Acts 10, a Roman soldier received the Holy Spirit, but he was not baptized by water, so God sent the Apostle Peter to have him receive also the water.

Acts 10:46-47 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.

The Roman soldier was saved when he accepted Christ. He also received the Holy Spirit upon salvation. Paul, if you reread the underlined part, did not mention that the soldier needed to be baptized in water to seal his salvation, but to be obedient as they are. Also, there are two baptisms. One with water and the other with the Holy Spirit. They are not the same. Jesus, being the Son of God, received the Holy Spirit when He was baptized in water. Yet, nobody else did. While Christ was teaching His disciples, He blew on them so they could receive the Holy Spirit. Everyone else had to wait until Christ returned to the Father before He could send the Holy Spirit to us. If they were one and the same, it would of been so from the beginning.

As you can see in Scripture, there were some who received the Spirit, but they also needed water. Then in Acts 19, we see some of the disciples of St. John the Baptist who were baptized with water, but they did not receive the Spirit. It was the Apostle Paul who baptized them with the Spirit.

Let's look at Acts 19:1-7 so we can be sure of what we speak.

And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”

So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”

Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Now the men were about twelve in all.

You do realize that they were not baptized in the name of Jesus, but in the name of John. There is a difference, one that would include receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:2-6 "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So, they said to him, "We have not heard so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit. And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people they should believe on Him who would come after him, on Christ Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesized.

As you can see, in Acts 10, those who were able to speak in tongues already had the Holy Spirit in them, but they also needed water as St. Peter said, "can anyone forbid them water who already have the Holy Spirit. Then in Acts 19, St. Paul gave the Holy Spirit to those who were baptized in water, but did not have the Holy Spirit in them. St. John the Baptist only baptized with water. BUT, the Apostles baptized with BOTH water and spirit. This is what St. Peter said about waters of baptism:

1 Peter 3:20-21 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

When Christ told Nicodemus that one must be born again of water and spirit, Christ was speaking of baptism. To be born AGAIN with water is not speaking of a birth water from a mother's womb because a man is only born once and cannot re-enter his mother's womb. In fact, Nicodemus asked Jesus, "How can a man enter his mother's womb again." And Jesus reply showed that Nicodemus did not understand what He was saying (See John 3).

As St. Peter says, this water, which symbolizes baptism now SAVES you also. So, baptism is necessary for salvation.....and it is a baptism of both water and spirit together., not separate.

I don't think anyone has said that the only way to receive the Holy Spirit is to be baptized. As you pointed out, in Acts 10, Cornelius was already a Christian, for he had fasted and prayed to God. God sent an angel to Cornelius instructing him to send for Paul, which he did. Paul then went to Cornelius and preached to Cornelius and his household what Christ had instructed all to preach. It was through the words that Paul spoke about Christ that the Holy Spirit came upon them, not because of baptism in water. Again, baptism is required as an obedience, not part of salvation.

You need to understand that the Apostles do not baptize with the Holy Spirit. God does. He uses us as a tool, be it through words or laying on of hands. We are just a tool and this baptism is not of us.

In you quote of scripture for 1 Peter 3:20-21, I notice you left out a key part of the verses. Let's look at the whole two verses.

who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I underlined the part you left out. What is an antitype and what is it referring to? An antitype is a foreshadow of what is to come. The baptism in water was an antitype of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which saves us. Not the water baptism.

About your last paragraph. Can angles be born again? Can any of Gods creation outside of man be born again? Only man can be born again. Man is first born of water, from the birth. He then, to be born again, must be born of the Spirit. Nicodemus misunderstood what Christ was saying. Nicodemus thought he must enter his mothers womb again in order to be born again. You are similar to his error, for you believe that one must be baptized in water to fulfill being born again. Look back at the scripture you mentioned to Acts 10, Cornelius was already a faithful follower of God. When he and his household heard about Christ, they became born again through the Spirit. They then was baptized in obedience. If being baptized in water was the first requirement of being born again, than Cornelius and his household would not of received the Holy Spirit first.

[Jayyycuuup]

Difficulty's lol..... So this is towards your post to me Selene.......

I don't think so, your making your basis off of what Jesus told his disciples. If Christ meant what you are saying then He would have said he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned. But that is not what it says, Christ only say's he who does not believe.....so your adding to what he said. Do you have anything else to add to your claim ?

I do, that states all you have to do is accept Christ and you shall live for eternity with our Lord !

John 5:35 And Jesus said to them "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."

John 5:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." --By saying that you have to be baptized in order to be saved would be holding your own interpretation above the words of Christ, He states that whoever COMES to Me, shall not be cast out i.e not be saved.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Scripture never said "he who believeth not and is not baptize will be damned." Those words "is not baptized" is not found in the second part of the biblical verse. You are the only one who put it there. Baptism was never excluded because 1) it was God Himself who ordered baptism, 2) Christ Himself felt it was important to have Himself baptize despite that He had no sin, 3) Christ continued to allow His disciples to baptize even after St. John the Baptist was beheaded by King Herod, and 4) Jesus told His Apostles that those who believed and are baptize will be saved. Christ did not have to put in "is not baptize" in the second part of what He said. If God feels that baptism was not necessary, He would not have gone through all the trouble to do all those 4 things I mentioned.

You just made my point. You are trying to say I was adding to scripture, but your highly wrong, my point being is that if Christ meant what you are saying then he would have said those who do not believe and are not baptized will not be saved, but it does not mean that,. nor say that. Concluding that all you have to be is saved in order to go to heaven.

Now you are trying to add to what I said, is baptism necessary ? Absolutely !! Is it a, if you dont you go to hell ? NO !! Your making your basis off of one verse that does not support your claim, I gave and still can give several more verses where Christ, and others say all you have to be is saved to enter the kingdom of God.

I think you misunderstood what I said. Christ never added "and is not baptized" in the second part of his sentence because ALL UNBELEVERS are NOT baptized. None of the unbelivers are baptized, so why should Christ add "and is not baptized" to the unbelivers. The first sentence applies only to the believers. Christ is saying, "Those who believe AND is baptized will be saved." So, those people who heard Christ's words and believed Him, but are NOT baptized......they paid attention and got themselves baptized.

During that time, there were many people who heard Christ's words. Some of those people are believers who are baptized (such as His Apostles), some are believers but NOT baptized (people who followed Him but failed to get baptized) and some are unbelievers (such as the pagan Roman soliders). So, when Christ said to this audience, "Those who believe and is baptized will be saved and those who believeth not will be damned"........the disciples who believed in HIm but didn't get baptized is going to get themselves baptized, while the Roman soldiers will just scoff at Him. Yes, there were a few Romans who heard Him. As you can see in the Bible, there was even a Roman soldier who approached Jesus asking to heal his servant, but he didn't allow Jesus to enter his home. He simply said, "Just say the word, and I know that my servant will be healed."

The Bible says that those who believed AND is baptised will be saved. Now, for those who believed and is NOT baptized, that is up to God to decide what to do with those people. That's His call. As for the unbelievers (who are not baptized at all), the Bible says that they are not saved.

AHA ! Praise you Lord !

Okay, now I can tell you Mathew 16:16 is before Christ was crucified so I think that you are correct, that they needed to be baptized and saved. But that was to the men before Christ was the bearer. You see we are washed in Christ's blood, the men before that we washed in water.... Still I think that we should be baptized, but since Christ bore the sin of the world, that is no longer a mandatory to be saved. (read Mathew 27:38-46, this is when he was crucified)

[OneLight]

I agree...but some people believe that if you do NOT speak in tongues as evidence, then you are not truly saved.

At any rate, I really am not sure what hisdisciple is saying? So just wanted some clarification

Thanks

Really? Wow, I have never heard that. that has really blown my mind. I can't believe someone would say that. The thief on the cross never spoken in tongues and he went to heaven. I've always thought of the work of the Holy Spirit as 2 sepreate works, 1 at salvation one at recieving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Which is why Christ blew on the disciples and said recieve the Holy Spirit ( when they got saved ) , and then told them to tarry until they recieve power from on high. ) That Everyone who has been saved has the Holy Spirit within, and everyone who has the Baptism of the holy spirit has the Holy Spirit within and upon both. Which is why the bible talks about having the Holy Spirit upon and within , because there 2 differant things.The differance being both are saved, 1 is empowered for service 1 is not.

I can't imagine how that must make someone feel. Sevenseas I hope nobody ever made you feel like that. God bless

There are some Pentecostals and charismatics that believe this. Check into the Oneness Pentecostal beliefs.