The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[ARGOSY]

 

The 6th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl of wrath are all associated with a great earthquake, and the kings or kingdoms subject to Christ.

The first trumpet is not sounded until the opening of the 7th seal, which comes after the 6th seal. The bowls do not come until after the the 7th trumpet. You see, even though they have common judgments, they cannot be the same event. That is the trouble with trying to fit them into the same event. According to scripture, it is not possible. It does become possible when we use our own understanding and imagination.

 

 

Can you give me biblical precedence for your principle that the sequence of John's visions in Revelation has to follow the sequence of their fulfilment. I see no such precedent in Daniel who referred to the same period of the antichrist in at least 3 different prophecies.  It appears you are introducing a new principle into the bible which is contradicted by the bible..

[Salty]

I don't follow either of the three examples, because only with the last 3 trumpet - woe periods, and the 6th - 7th vials can we be certain are in order.
 

Some events on the 6th seal do parallel events on the 7th vial and 7th trumpet, so no direct 1 to 1, 2 to 2, parallel exists with all of them. The event of the white horse conquerer that has a simple bow and crown is the first event mentioned in Rev.6, but we are not specifically told it is the 1st seal, nevertheless it is out of order, whether one believes that is the Antichrist on that white horse or our Lord Jesus. The order in Rev.6 flows with the order of the signs Jesus gave in Mark 13, as the very first sign was a warning to let no man deceive us, and then the topic of many false Christs.

 

The last 3 trumpets each have a 'woe' attached to them, giving them special emphasis. Their events are in order all the way up to Christ's return on the 7th trumpet.

[ARGOSY]

You don't think God can produce more than one great earthquake? How many has happened in the last few years? These are DIFFERENT earthquakes at different times. Just so you will know, when God resurrects people long dead, that very resurrection will CAUSE an earthquake. The longer they have been dead, the greater the earthquake. The earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. It will be worldwide because the dead in Christ will be found worldwide. It will also be Paul's "sudden destruction." It will happen SUDDENLY, without warning, because that is exactly how the rapture event will happen: without warning.

 

 

The earthquake mentioned when the two witnesses rise up will be the same earthquake mentioned at the 7th vial, because they must testify for 1260 days and lay dead three days, which will take them to the timing of the 7th trumpet. It will be at that 7th trumpet that the Old Testemant saints rise. Many will be from before the great flood, so it will of necisity be the worst earthquake this world has ever seen. If you notice, John gives us a difference when describing these earthquakes.

 

If you will notice, in the 6th seal earthquake the mountains are moved, but STILL EXIST. At the 7th vial earthquake the mountains disappear. They cannot be the same earthquake.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Yes, its entirely possible that there are seals followed by a massive earthquake, and then trumpets followed by a massive earthquake , then bowls followed by a massive earthquake. Its also possible that there is a second coming with a last trumpet and the gathering of the elect and an massive earthquake and the kings of earth in fear, followed by a third coming with a last trumpet and the gathering of the elect, and an earthquake and the kingdoms subject to Jesus.  I'm just not in the habit of splitting events up when they obviously overlap so well. I  don't see a biblical principle that multiple visions are referring to consecutive events. If anything, its more likely that there is one dramatic day and all prophecies are pointing to this one dramatic day.  Thanks for the discussion though, I've enjoyed the exchange.

 

ps when mountains disappear, this normally means they move. 

[iamlamad]

I don't follow either of the three examples, because only with the last 3 trumpet - woe periods, and the 6th - 7th vials can we be certain are in order.

 

Some events on the 6th seal do parallel events on the 7th vial and 7th trumpet, so no direct 1 to 1, 2 to 2, parallel exists with all of them. The event of the white horse conquerer that has a simple bow and crown is the first event mentioned in Rev.6, but we are not specifically told it is the 1st seal, nevertheless it is out of order, whether one believes that is the Antichrist on that white horse or our Lord Jesus. The order in Rev.6 flows with the order of the signs Jesus gave in Mark 13, as the very first sign was a warning to let no man deceive us, and then the topic of many false Christs.

 

The last 3 trumpets each have a 'woe' attached to them, giving them special emphasis. Their events are in order all the way up to Christ's return on the 7th trumpet.

When one understands the vision of the throne room in chapters 4 & 5, the seals are in perfect order. And we KNOW (no doubt at all) that seal # 1 was first just by process of elimination - all the rest are numbered as they are broken. Why did John use numbers? Of course for SEQUENCING. Why would anyone think they should rearrange what John wrote, when He used numbers?

 

The vision of the throne room IS the context of the seals - and sets the TIME of the first seals. John saw a vision of the throne room OF THE PAST. He was looking into the throne room during a time BEFORE Jesus rose from the dead. Notice that Jesus was NOT seen at first at the right hand of the Father, when we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been seen. Stephen SAW Him there.

 

Next, during the first search to find one worthy, that search ended in FAILURE. WHY did it end in failure? Simply because in this vision the TIME was before Jesus rose from the dead. John was seeing a HISTORY LESSON.

 

Next, if one notices, in chapter 4 the Holy Spirit is STILL in the throne room, when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. WHY was the Holy Spirit still there? Simply because JEsus had not yet ascended in the vision.

 

Then, John saw the very moment Jesus ascended and entered the throne room - as a lamb having been slain. TIME? About 32 AD. And John SAW the Holy Spirit sent down the very instant Jesus arrived. TIME? About 32 AD. The moment Jesus arose from the dead  - He became the redeemer and was immediately found worthy to break the seals. So the moment He arrived after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not ascended - He then ascended to the Throne room and took the scroll from the Father's hand and began breaking seals. NO ONE can find 2000 years between any of those verses because it is just not there.

 

Therefore the first seals were broken around 32 AD. So what does the white horse represent? It represents the CHURCH sent out to make disciples. The next three horse ride together. They represent the efforts of the DEVIL to stop the church from escaping the 1/4 of the earth they were assigned to. We can be SURE that 1/4 will be centered on Jerusalem.

 

Of course the Devil failed, and the church broke through, because the gates of hell can NEVER stop the church! There is simply no where on the planet now someone cannot hear the gospel.

 

We can know for sure that the trumpets and the vials will come in order, because John NUMBERED them. And as Salty pointed out, the woes are numbered also for sequence. Since the seals, the trumpets, the woes, and the vials were numbered for sequencing, why would anyone think the rest of the book would not be in the proper order?

 

Finally, it is MYTH to say there is a coming at the 7th trumpet. Why would anyone even think this, when John was so clear in his writing that Jesus comes in chapter 19?

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

You don't think God can produce more than one great earthquake? How many has happened in the last few years? These are DIFFERENT earthquakes at different times. Just so you will know, when God resurrects people long dead, that very resurrection will CAUSE an earthquake. The longer they have been dead, the greater the earthquake. The earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. It will be worldwide because the dead in Christ will be found worldwide. It will also be Paul's "sudden destruction." It will happen SUDDENLY, without warning, because that is exactly how the rapture event will happen: without warning.

 

 

The earthquake mentioned when the two witnesses rise up will be the same earthquake mentioned at the 7th vial, because they must testify for 1260 days and lay dead three days, which will take them to the timing of the 7th trumpet. It will be at that 7th trumpet that the Old Testemant saints rise. Many will be from before the great flood, so it will of necisity be the worst earthquake this world has ever seen. If you notice, John gives us a difference when describing these earthquakes.

 

If you will notice, in the 6th seal earthquake the mountains are moved, but STILL EXIST. At the 7th vial earthquake the mountains disappear. They cannot be the same earthquake.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Yes, its entirely possible that there are seals followed by a massive earthquake, and then trumpets followed by a massive earthquake , then bowls followed by a massive earthquake. Its also possible that there is a second coming with a last trumpet and the gathering of the elect and an massive earthquake and the kings of earth in fear, followed by a third coming with a last trumpet and the gathering of the elect, and an earthquake and the kingdoms subject to Jesus.  I'm just not in the habit of splitting events up when they obviously overlap so well. I  don't see a biblical principle that multiple visions are referring to consecutive events. If anything, its more likely that there is one dramatic day and all prophecies are pointing to this one dramatic day.  Thanks for the discussion though, I've enjoyed the exchange.

 

ps when mountains disappear, this normally means they move. 

 

There is a GREAT bible principle: the OLD Testament writings of the coming of their Messiah. There we find some verses speak of the coming of a humble and suffering servant who is put to death, while others speak of a KING who destroys all enemies and makes Israel the most powerful nation on the earth. The scribes and Pharisees understood this coming as the King very well; they did not understand the coming as the suffering servant at all. In fact, Daniel told them the very day they should expect to see their King.....173,880 days from the time the command was issued to rebuild Jerusalem and the walls. They STILL missed it.

 

In the very same way, the New Testament speaks of two more comings; one coming FOR His bride, another coming WITH His bride. Verses for each coming are DIFFERENT, just as the Old Testament verses were different. I know it is possible to see both comings in the New Testament scriptures, for millions have seen it and know the truth of it.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

I don't follow either of the three examples, because only with the last 3 trumpet - woe periods, and the 6th - 7th vials can we be certain are in order.

 

Some events on the 6th seal do parallel events on the 7th vial and 7th trumpet, so no direct 1 to 1, 2 to 2, parallel exists with all of them. The event of the white horse conquerer that has a simple bow and crown is the first event mentioned in Rev.6, but we are not specifically told it is the 1st seal, nevertheless it is out of order, whether one believes that is the Antichrist on that white horse or our Lord Jesus. The order in Rev.6 flows with the order of the signs Jesus gave in Mark 13, as the very first sign was a warning to let no man deceive us, and then the topic of many false Christs.

 

The last 3 trumpets each have a 'woe' attached to them, giving them special emphasis. Their events are in order all the way up to Christ's return on the 7th trumpet.

When one understands the vision of the throne room in chapters 4 & 5, the seals are in perfect order. And we KNOW (no doubt at all) that seal # 1 was first just by process of elimination - all the rest are numbered as they are broken. Why did John use numbers? Of course for SEQUENCING. Why would anyone think they should rearrange what John wrote, when He used numbers?

 

The vision of the throne room IS the context of the seals - and sets the TIME of the first seals. John saw a vision of the throne room OF THE PAST. He was looking into the throne room during a time BEFORE Jesus rose from the dead. Notice that Jesus was NOT seen at first at the right hand of the Father, when we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been seen. Stephen SAW Him there.

 

Next, during the first search to find one worthy, that search ended in FAILURE. WHY did it end in failure? Simply because in this vision the TIME was before Jesus rose from the dead. John was seeing a HISTORY LESSON.

 

Next, if one notices, in chapter 4 the Holy Spirit is STILL in the throne room, when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. WHY was the Holy Spirit still there? Simply because JEsus had not yet ascended in the vision.

 

Then, John saw the very moment Jesus ascended and entered the throne room - as a lamb having been slain. TIME? About 32 AD. And John SAW the Holy Spirit sent down the very instant Jesus arrived. TIME? About 32 AD. The moment Jesus arose from the dead  - He became the redeemer and was immediately found worthy to break the seals. So the moment He arrived after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not ascended - He then ascended to the Throne room and took the scroll from the Father's hand and began breaking seals. NO ONE can find 2000 years between any of those verses because it is just not there.

 

Therefore the first seals were broken around 32 AD. So what does the white horse represent? It represents the CHURCH sent out to make disciples. The next three horse ride together. They represent the efforts of the DEVIL to stop the church from escaping the 1/4 of the earth they were assigned to. We can be SURE that 1/4 will be centered on Jerusalem.

 

Of course the Devil failed, and the church broke through, because the gates of hell can NEVER stop the church! There is simply no where on the planet now someone cannot hear the gospel.

 

We can know for sure that the trumpets and the vials will come in order, because John NUMBERED them. And as Salty pointed out, the woes are numbered also for sequence. Since the seals, the trumpets, the woes, and the vials were numbered for sequencing, why would anyone think the rest of the book would not be in the proper order?

 

Finally, it is MYTH to say there is a coming at the 7th trumpet. Why would anyone even think this, when John was so clear in his writing that Jesus comes in chapter 19?

 

LAMAD

 

yet, if mountains only move, they DO NOT disappear. Therefore, there will be two different earthquakes, one much greater than the other.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

You don't think God can produce more than one great earthquake? How many has happened in the last few years? These are DIFFERENT earthquakes at different times. Just so you will know, when God resurrects people long dead, that very resurrection will CAUSE an earthquake. The longer they have been dead, the greater the earthquake. The earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. It will be worldwide because the dead in Christ will be found worldwide. It will also be Paul's "sudden destruction." It will happen SUDDENLY, without warning, because that is exactly how the rapture event will happen: without warning.

 

 

The earthquake mentioned when the two witnesses rise up will be the same earthquake mentioned at the 7th vial, because they must testify for 1260 days and lay dead three days, which will take them to the timing of the 7th trumpet. It will be at that 7th trumpet that the Old Testemant saints rise. Many will be from before the great flood, so it will of necisity be the worst earthquake this world has ever seen. If you notice, John gives us a difference when describing these earthquakes.

 

If you will notice, in the 6th seal earthquake the mountains are moved, but STILL EXIST. At the 7th vial earthquake the mountains disappear. They cannot be the same earthquake.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Yes, its entirely possible that there are seals followed by a massive earthquake, and then trumpets followed by a massive earthquake , then bowls followed by a massive earthquake. Its also possible that there is a second coming with a last trumpet and the gathering of the elect and an massive earthquake and the kings of earth in fear, followed by a third coming with a last trumpet and the gathering of the elect, and an earthquake and the kingdoms subject to Jesus.  I'm just not in the habit of splitting events up when they obviously overlap so well. I  don't see a biblical principle that multiple visions are referring to consecutive events. If anything, its more likely that there is one dramatic day and all prophecies are pointing to this one dramatic day.  Thanks for the discussion though, I've enjoyed the exchange.

 

ps when mountains disappear, this normally means they move. 

 

There is a GREAT bible principle: the OLD Testament writings of the coming of their Messiah. There we find some verses speak of the coming of a humble and suffering servant who is put to death, while others speak of a KING who destroys all enemies and makes Israel the most powerful nation on the earth. The scribes and Pharisees understood this coming as the King very well; they did not understand the coming as the suffering servant at all. In fact, Daniel told them the very day they should expect to see their King.....173,880 days from the time the command was issued to rebuild Jerusalem and the walls. They STILL missed it.

 

In the very same way, the New Testament speaks of two more comings; one coming FOR His bride, another coming WITH His bride. Verses for each coming are DIFFERENT, just as the Old Testament verses were different. I know it is possible to see both comings in the New Testament scriptures, for millions have seen it and know the truth of it.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The principle I was referring to is that prophecies are fulfilled  in the same order that they are written.   This principle does not exist in the bible, yet some here wish to apply that principle to the visions of the seals, and trumpets , and vials. As if the order of their record somehow relates to the order of their fulfilment. In other books and writings of this bible there is no such principle. 

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

You don't think God can produce more than one great earthquake? How many has happened in the last few years? These are DIFFERENT earthquakes at different times. Just so you will know, when God resurrects people long dead, that very resurrection will CAUSE an earthquake. The longer they have been dead, the greater the earthquake. The earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. It will be worldwide because the dead in Christ will be found worldwide. It will also be Paul's "sudden destruction." It will happen SUDDENLY, without warning, because that is exactly how the rapture event will happen: without warning.

 

 

The earthquake mentioned when the two witnesses rise up will be the same earthquake mentioned at the 7th vial, because they must testify for 1260 days and lay dead three days, which will take them to the timing of the 7th trumpet. It will be at that 7th trumpet that the Old Testemant saints rise. Many will be from before the great flood, so it will of necisity be the worst earthquake this world has ever seen. If you notice, John gives us a difference when describing these earthquakes.

 

If you will notice, in the 6th seal earthquake the mountains are moved, but STILL EXIST. At the 7th vial earthquake the mountains disappear. They cannot be the same earthquake.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Yes, its entirely possible that there are seals followed by a massive earthquake, and then trumpets followed by a massive earthquake , then bowls followed by a massive earthquake. Its also possible that there is a second coming with a last trumpet and the gathering of the elect and an massive earthquake and the kings of earth in fear, followed by a third coming with a last trumpet and the gathering of the elect, and an earthquake and the kingdoms subject to Jesus.  I'm just not in the habit of splitting events up when they obviously overlap so well. I  don't see a biblical principle that multiple visions are referring to consecutive events. If anything, its more likely that there is one dramatic day and all prophecies are pointing to this one dramatic day.  Thanks for the discussion though, I've enjoyed the exchange.

 

ps when mountains disappear, this normally means they move. 

 

There is a GREAT bible principle: the OLD Testament writings of the coming of their Messiah. There we find some verses speak of the coming of a humble and suffering servant who is put to death, while others speak of a KING who destroys all enemies and makes Israel the most powerful nation on the earth. The scribes and Pharisees understood this coming as the King very well; they did not understand the coming as the suffering servant at all. In fact, Daniel told them the very day they should expect to see their King.....173,880 days from the time the command was issued to rebuild Jerusalem and the walls. They STILL missed it.

 

In the very same way, the New Testament speaks of two more comings; one coming FOR His bride, another coming WITH His bride. Verses for each coming are DIFFERENT, just as the Old Testament verses were different. I know it is possible to see both comings in the New Testament scriptures, for millions have seen it and know the truth of it.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The principle I was referring to is that prophecies are fulfilled  in the same order that they are written.   This principle does not exist in the bible, yet some here wish to apply that principle to the visions of the seals, and trumpets , and vials. As if the order of their record somehow relates to the order of their fulfilment. In other books and writings of this bible there is no such principle. 

 

That is a good point....but then, no other prophecy was written with numbers for sequencing.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

 

 

The principle I was referring to is that prophecies are fulfilled  in the same order that they are written.   This principle does not exist in the bible, yet some here wish to apply that principle to the visions of the seals, and trumpets , and vials. As if the order of their record somehow relates to the order of their fulfilment. In other books and writings of this bible there is no such principle. 

 

 

Our Lord Jesus in His Olivet Discourse did give us a semblance of an order for the events, and that parallels the seals of Rev.6. The last sign He gave in Matt.24 & Mark 13 was the sign of His coming. When we look at the type of events He gave in Revelation 6, 11, 16, and 19, His coming there is also the final sign. With the 3 woe periods, those are special pointers for the order and will reveal the proper order of the other seals, trumpets, and vials. Thus it is about the type of 'events' given, and not just a sequence of numbers.

[Salty]

When one understands the vision of the throne room in chapters 4 & 5, the seals are in perfect order. And we KNOW (no doubt at all) that seal # 1 was first just by process of elimination - all the rest are numbered as they are broken. Why did John use numbers? Of course for SEQUENCING. Why would anyone think they should rearrange what John wrote, when He used numbers?

 

The vision of the throne room IS the context of the seals - and sets the TIME of the first seals. John saw a vision of the throne room OF THE PAST. He was looking into the throne room during a time BEFORE Jesus rose from the dead. Notice that Jesus was NOT seen at first at the right hand of the Father, when we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been seen. Stephen SAW Him there.

 

Next, during the first search to find one worthy, that search ended in FAILURE. WHY did it end in failure? Simply because in this vision the TIME was before Jesus rose from the dead. John was seeing a HISTORY LESSON.

 

Next, if one notices, in chapter 4 the Holy Spirit is STILL in the throne room, when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. WHY was the Holy Spirit still there? Simply because JEsus had not yet ascended in the vision.

 

Then, John saw the very moment Jesus ascended and entered the throne room - as a lamb having been slain. TIME? About 32 AD. And John SAW the Holy Spirit sent down the very instant Jesus arrived. TIME? About 32 AD. The moment Jesus arose from the dead  - He became the redeemer and was immediately found worthy to break the seals. So the moment He arrived after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not ascended - He then ascended to the Throne room and took the scroll from the Father's hand and began breaking seals. NO ONE can find 2000 years between any of those verses because it is just not there.

 

Therefore the first seals were broken around 32 AD. So what does the white horse represent? It represents the CHURCH sent out to make disciples. The next three horse ride together. They represent the efforts of the DEVIL to stop the church from escaping the 1/4 of the earth they were assigned to. We can be SURE that 1/4 will be centered on Jerusalem.

 

Of course the Devil failed, and the church broke through, because the gates of hell can NEVER stop the church! There is simply no where on the planet now someone cannot hear the gospel.

 

We can know for sure that the trumpets and the vials will come in order, because John NUMBERED them. And as Salty pointed out, the woes are numbered also for sequence. Since the seals, the trumpets, the woes, and the vials were numbered for sequencing, why would anyone think the rest of the book would not be in the proper order?

 

Finally, it is MYTH to say there is a coming at the 7th trumpet. Why would anyone even think this, when John was so clear in his writing that Jesus comes in chapter 19?

 

LAMAD

 

 

John's vision given him in Rev.4 & 5 is a future-forward look into Christ's Millennium and forward, simply because those 24 elders are shown there already wearing crowns. The handing out of crowns is a rewards by Christ topic, and does not occur until after His return.

 

Even Rev.5:9 with those elders proclaiming how they were 'redeemed' out of every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation, is pointing to the time after Christ's return, which is when the 'redemption' will occur.