Can people become an angel?

[coheir]

 

I think those scriptures Jesse brought into the discussion are the reason some believe people become angels when they die, but it never actually says that.  They are a separate creation, but they did in at least one instance, take female humans as wives and have children with them.  That shows they are capable of having sex.  That is one argument I made for men still being men and women still being women in heaven.  All the angels I know of in scripture are male, and to Father children, they have to be male.  That may not be God's intent for angels, but it shows they are capable. 

Zech 5:5-11

5 Then the angel who was speaking with me went out, and said to me, "Lift up now your eyes, and see what this is, going forth." 6 And I said, "What is it?" And he said, "This is the ephah going forth." Again he said," This is their appearance in all the land 7(and behold, a lead cover was lifted up); and this is a woman sitting inside the ephah. "  8 Then he said, "This is Wickedness!" And he threw her down into the middle of the ephah and cast the lead weight on its opening. 9 Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and there two women were coming out with the wind in their wings ; and they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heavens. 10 And I said to the angel who was speaking with me, "Where are they taking the ephah?" 11 Then he said to me, "To build a temple for her in the land of Shinar; and when it is prepared, she will be set there on her own pedestal."

NASB

 

Just out of curiosity what are these two women with wings...

 

what was/is that temple?

 

the only angel in these verses is; " then the angel speaking with me" the two women with wings are not called angels so they may be evil spirits, they were dealing with evil also v8

[other one]

 

 

I think those scriptures Jesse brought into the discussion are the reason some believe people become angels when they die, but it never actually says that.  They are a separate creation, but they did in at least one instance, take female humans as wives and have children with them.  That shows they are capable of having sex.  That is one argument I made for men still being men and women still being women in heaven.  All the angels I know of in scripture are male, and to Father children, they have to be male.  That may not be God's intent for angels, but it shows they are capable. 

Zech 5:5-11

5 Then the angel who was speaking with me went out, and said to me, "Lift up now your eyes, and see what this is, going forth." 6 And I said, "What is it?" And he said, "This is the ephah going forth." Again he said," This is their appearance in all the land 7(and behold, a lead cover was lifted up); and this is a woman sitting inside the ephah. "  8 Then he said, "This is Wickedness!" And he threw her down into the middle of the ephah and cast the lead weight on its opening. 9 Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and there two women were coming out with the wind in their wings ; and they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heavens. 10 And I said to the angel who was speaking with me, "Where are they taking the ephah?" 11 Then he said to me, "To build a temple for her in the land of Shinar; and when it is prepared, she will be set there on her own pedestal."

NASB

 

Just out of curiosity what are these two women with wings...

 

what was/is that temple?

 

the only angel in these verses is; " then the angel speaking with me" the two women with wings are not called angels so they may be evil spirits, they were dealing with evil also v8

 

good angels.....   bad angels......    description sounds like an angel......    I've never heard a demon described like that anywhere else......   the two that lived with us for a few years surely didn't look anything like that.

[Guest Jesse]

 

Deut 34:4-7

"This is the land which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, 'I will give it to your descendants'; I have let you see it with your eyes, but you shall not go over there." 5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day.

NASB

 

Moses was not taken up, he died and was buried in the land of Moab.....

 

Hi Other one.

 

  Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

 

Moses will be one of the two witnesses.rev11.

He did change water into blood; he also was in the tranfiguration.

What do you think?

 

jesse.

 

jesse.

[other one]

 

 

Deut 34:4-7

"This is the land which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, 'I will give it to your descendants'; I have let you see it with your eyes, but you shall not go over there." 5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day.

NASB

 

Moses was not taken up, he died and was buried in the land of Moab.....

 

Hi Other one.

 

  Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

 

Moses will be one of the two witnesses.rev11.

He did change water into blood; he also was in the tranfiguration.

What do you think?

 

jesse.

 

jesse.

 

I think he died just like the Bible says......     What happened after that, we really don't know....    He was present at the transfiguration, but we are not told what form he was in....     I personally do not think he will be one of the two witnesses, but that is just my personal conjecture

 

I think the two witnesses are just going to be two totally spirit filled people......   maybe you and I, I don't know.

[Openly Curious]

No,  I absolutely do not believe a human being upon death will become and angel.  That to me is like believing in re-incarnation in the next life.  The only difference will be is that we will live forever in a glorified "spiritual" body as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.  We will be changed from a body that is subject to physical death into a spiritual body that will never ever be touched by death again just as Christ in his resurrection.  What we were created to be which are human being we shall be over on the other side of life and redeemed man will sing the song of the redeemed which the angels cannot sing.  Redemption has only been experienced by the saints not the angels.

[Openly Curious]

other one, on 08 Aug 2014 - 8:49 PM, said:

Zech 5:5-11

5 Then the angel who was speaking with me went out, and said to me, "Lift up now your eyes, and see what this is, going forth." 6 And I said, "What is it?" And he said, "This is the ephah going forth." Again he said," This is their appearance in all the land 7(and behold, a lead cover was lifted up); and this is a woman sitting inside the ephah. "  8 Then he said, "This is Wickedness!" And he threw her down into the middle of the ephah and cast the lead weight on its opening. 9 Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and there two women were coming out with the wind in their wings ; and they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heavens. 10 And I said to the angel who was speaking with me, "Where are they taking the ephah?" 11 Then he said to me, "To build a temple for her in the land of Shinar; and when it is prepared, she will be set there on her own pedestal."
NASB

 

Just out of curiosity what are these two women with wings...

 

what was/is that temple?

 

 

The end-times apocalyptic prophecy visions in scripture fill the book of Zechariah.  His visions are filled with picture images which heighten the imagination.   They show things to us that would not or could not happen and many of them many times dipict unusual beings.  In Zechariah's visions God showed and made known the truths of them through those symbolic images.  Kind of like a coded message so to speak.

 

The angel in this particular vision was addressed and was identified as just that an angel.  This angel in this particular vision told Zechariah the meaning gave him the message from God that was behind the things he saw in the vision.  The angel told him "to lift up his eyes and see".  Of course he did and then afterwards asked the angel of God "What is this"?   And the angel begins giving Zechariah the truth or message of his vision as the angel is revealing showing it to him.  This is the epah going forth which was a measuring basket.  It was a standard measuring basket which today is a little less than a bushel basket.  But this measuring basket in the vision was probably not the true size of and epah basket.  The reason being is because the basket was big enough to hold a woman within it (Zech 5:7).   This epah basket too in the vision has a "covering" which was made out of a talent of lead.  Which was to make sure the woman who stood for "wickedness" was kept in that basket (Zech 5:8).  Then I lifted up my eyes and looked and there two women were coming out with the wind in their wings; and like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the epah between the earth and the heavens (Zech 5:9).   After Zechariah lifted up his eyes and looks he begins having a conversation with the angel as to "what" was going to happen or be done.  The angel of God revealed or told him the meaning the truth that the two women were taking the woman held inside the basket to Shinar.  Which Shinar was where they were going to build a temple and put the woman in the basket on a pedestal (Zech 5:10-11).

 

I can think of three reasons why a person would ASSUME that these two women are angels.  But the scripture especially mentions the fact that the two "women" had wings.  Are they angels?  No I personally don't believe these two women are angels.  The first and obvious reason to me is because in the apocalyptic end-time prophecy scripture found in the bible most of the things are "not normal" but symbolic.  They don't got to be the way I normally would perceive or see them to be.  Normally a woman don't got wings.  But in Zechariah's vision they are pictured with wings for a "purpose".  Now scrolls don't normally fly either but in this same chapter of Zechariah you can read and see flying scrolls.  So just because these two women had wings does not mean that they are angels.  This is the only scripture out of all the other images which were given in the book of Zechariah so therefore this particular passage can't be compared to any of the other images in the book of Zechariah.  However in John's visions in the book of Revelation which is also end-time prophecy events that are going to happen found in scriptures.  There is a case where a woman has wings and it is very clear the woman is Not an angel.  "And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child"... but..." the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman".  She is "not" an angel but instead is given wings for the purpose of traveling.  In Zechariah's vision the two women were said to have wings and again it was for the purpose of traveling.  It is interesting that the woman's wings in Revelation are said to be that of an eagle and in Zechariah's vision the two women are described as the wings of a stork.

 

The very fact that the wings are said to be like the wings of a stork is a second reason I don't believe the two women were angels.  Because it seems to be conveying something quite different than normal angelic wings.  A stork in itself has a migratory habits, have power and are really fast birds in flight and are very skilful in how they build their nests and they have very broad wings.  It could be that the two women are shown in the vision to be carrying the basket is because the basket itself contained a woman.  Maybe because back then the women did much of the manual labor especially in regards to baskets.  The message of the wings like a stork seems to have the emphasis on travel not having anything connected to it with the work of an angel.

 

Since there had already been an angel in Zechariah's vision identified as such is a third reason I have in believing the two women were not angels.  The angel that was identified in his vision played a major role or part in his vision and that angel was conversing with Zechariah regularly in that vision which is the proper role of an angels.  So even though the women are seen in the vision as having wings they are however not doing the primary work of an angel which is to deliver a message.  The two women are serving the purpose of transporting the woman who stands for wickedness held in the basket from one place over to another place and are not literal angels.

 

I know there maybe some things to which one might interpret these two women as being in the scriptural text in Zechariah and say there are female angels but I believe in the stronger eviddence.  The two women were a major part in Zechariah's vision but they do not got or have to be angels in order to accomplish the work they were given to do by God.  In scripture angels are described as having wings but not all beings in scripture which do have wings are necessarily angels.  And especially those that are found in the apocalyptic end-time prophecies that are found in scripture.

 

Shinar refers to Babylonia which is known today as Western Turkey.  It is the location of the famous tower of Babel.  Shinar means the land in which the great cities of Babylon, Erech and Akkad were located (Genesis 10:10).  This again is known as Western Turkey today.

 

I'll stop right there as the thread is not dealing with prophecy.  I just thought it was worth mentioning since it was suggested that there are women angels.  Just food for thoughts.  Also what we are when we die is what we are and will be....

 

Ecclesiates 11:3 - If the tree fall to the south or to the north in what place soever it shall fall, there shall it be......

 

So whatever state we are in when we die is what we will be.  It doesn't matter which way the tree falls it doesn't cease being a tree even though it died and fell to the ground it is still a tree.  It is the same for mankind upon the earth.  Man's character upon death will be unchangeable though whether for hell or heaven once that death overtakes us though.  But just like the tree in it death we will still be the human being we were created to be in our death and will continue in a spiritual body according to 1 Corinthians 15.  

[*Zion*]

 

the only angel in these verses is; " then the angel speaking with me" the two women with wings are not called angels so they may be evil spirits, they were dealing with evil also v8

 

 

good angels.....   bad angels......    description sounds like an angel......    I've never heard a demon described like that anywhere else......   the two that lived with us for a few years surely didn't look anything like that.

 

 

 Woah woah woah!  You have got to recount this story in far greater detail!

[other one]

 

 

the only angel in these verses is; " then the angel speaking with me" the two women with wings are not called angels so they may be evil spirits, they were dealing with evil also v8

 

 

good angels.....   bad angels......    description sounds like an angel......    I've never heard a demon described like that anywhere else......   the two that lived with us for a few years surely didn't look anything like that.

 

 

 Woah woah woah!  You have got to recount this story in far greater detail!

 

I've talked about it before and it would really take this thread into a different realm....... 

[He giveth more grace]

I am going to be an Angel with an impressive wing spam.

Just one thing wrong with that, Angels don't have wings.

Cherubim and Seraphim does.

[other one]

I am going to be an Angel with an impressive wing spam.

Just one thing wrong with that, Angels don't have wings.

Cherubim and Seraphim does.

hummmm,    good thought...     off I go to ponder...