Is the Rapture Biblical?

[OneLight]

No !! There is no rapture.  You will need full grown faith in God to survive the coming tribulation.

Yes, those in Christ will be "caught up" at the last trumpet, so there will be a rapture. When, people are still debating the timeline.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

[Littlelambseativy]

So many said it so we'll see Parker or Onelight to name a few. I can add no more.

[Daniel 11:36]

The Lord's "harpazo" action is biblical

 

Here is the action [Matthew 25:1-13; 1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

 

Here is the proof:

 

Those dwelling in heaven during the coming tribulation [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 14:17; 19:1-9]

 

Those returning with the Lord to contend at the battle of Armageddon [Joel 2:1-11; Zechariah 14:4-5; Revelation 19:14; 20:4] [those on thrones] 

[Enoch2021]

Since there's obviously only one second coming -- at which time the events described in what some have called "the rapture" will occur -- then it should all be one and the same event, which leaves the "Left Behind" hype in the dustbin of theology.

 

Factually Incorrect.

 

(The Rapture) Exhibit A:  (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

(The Second Coming) Exhibit B :  (Revelation 19:11-16) "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

 

Unless you can show: "a shout", "the voice of the archangel", "the trump of GOD", "Alive and DEAD meeting HIM in the clouds" in Revelation 19:11-16, OR, show a: "White Horse", "Faithful and True", "Judging and making War", "eyes as a Flame of Fire", 'many crowns", "clothed in a vesture dipped in blood", "armies clothed in white linen following", "a sharp sword out of HIS mouth"....in (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18), then these are clearly speaking to TWO Separate Events.

 

It also appears that Christ's Return for "The Rapture" is in the clouds not "on" Earth; whereas, the Second Coming is on the Earth.

 

 

Moreover,

 

Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation....

 

Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time).  So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

So unless you can show this scenario in Scripture, welcome to Pre-Trib.

Furthermore...

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

(2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

 

If any "Christians" that have read Daniel Chapter 9:27 (Every "Christian" {other than newly converted} that I ever met is somewhat to Overtly aware of it) Observe or Hear of the Abomination of Desolation....They can more or less Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches for Christ's Return....Whereby Scuttling the Above Passages along with another 8-10 that I didn't post.

 

Either the above passages are True/Correct...... OR..... Mid/Post Trib Rapture is True.  They are clearly Mutually Exclusive....BOTH can't be TRUE.

 

What's your choice?

[Daniel 11:36]

The biblical choice

The Lord's next intervention into the affairs of humanity will bring His hour [time] of trial and judgment upon the earth for refusal to believe the truth about Him .... He will personally execute this tribulation over a period of 2550 days

.... then He will appear to the mortal survivors of the same

But just before, He will call for His true Ecclesia and will not subject the same to His coming judgment just as He has promised

.... neither will He leave the dead in Christ at the time, but will include them in the calling

[ghtan]

Hi there Enoch2021! Like you, I too believe in a rapture but I do not see the source of your statement which I attach below. (I have not found out how to show quotes the proper way yet.) Surely if the bible does say the church goes through the tribulation (and I do not know which verse you have in mind), it would simply mean that the church alive at that time, not including dead believers too.

 

I am a mid-tribber and so I too do not think the rapture is found in Rev 19, but by the same token I think a pre-trib rapture is not found in Rev either. If I am not mistaken, the standard pre-trib view is that the rapture is symbolised by the ascension of John in Rev 4:1. But I think you will find that most other futurists and significantly non-futurists, who do not have any vested interest in the debate over the timing of the rapture, think that it would be reading too much into the text to say that John symbolises the church. 

 

Quoting Enoch2021:

 

Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation....

 

Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time).  So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

So unless you can show this scenario in Scripture, welcome to Pre-Trib.

Edited October 30, 2014 by ghtan

[Enoch2021]

 

Hi there Enoch2021! Like you, I too believe in a rapture but I do not see the source of your statement which I attach below. (I have not found out how to show quotes the proper way yet.) Surely if the bible does say the church goes through the tribulation (and I do not know which verse you have in mind), it would simply mean that the church alive at that time, not including dead believers too.

 

I am a mid-tribber and so I too do not think the rapture is found in Rev 19, but by the same token I think a pre-trib rapture is not found in Rev either. If I am not mistaken, the standard pre-trib view is that the rapture is symbolised by the ascension of John in Rev 4:1. But I think you will find that most other futurists and significantly non-futurists, who do not have any vested interest in the debate over the timing of the rapture, think that it would be reading too much into the text to say that John symbolises the church. 

 

Quoting Enoch2021:

 

Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation....

 

Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time).  So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

So unless you can show this scenario in Scripture, welcome to Pre-Trib.

 

 

 

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Hello ghtan,

 

 

I have not found out how to show quotes the proper way yet.

 

 

After you hit "Quote" a work area pops up along with the entire post you wish to reply too.  Highlight then Copy and Paste the part(s) you want to quote into the work area.  Highlight each specific item again, then hit the ( " ) icon in the format menu above.

 

 

I too believe in a rapture but I do not see the source of your statement which I attach below.  Surely if the bible does say the church goes through the tribulation (and I do not know which verse you have in mind)

 

 

Not following, this is what I wrote...

 

Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time).  So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

 

There is no passage that states this.  It's Inherent in the Concept, of either Mid/Post - Trib.  Which technically should be Mid/Post- "Great Trib" because there is no just plain "Trib". 

 

 

it would simply mean that the church alive at that time, not including dead believers too.

 

 

The "Church" is the ENTIRE Body of Christ.

 

(1 Corinthians 15:51) "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

 

 

I am a mid-tribber and so I too do not think the rapture is found in Rev 19, but by the same token I think a pre-trib rapture is not found in Rev either.

 

 

Correct on both counts.  The timing of the "actual event" is not depicted "specifically and directly" anywhere in Scripture...just the fact that there will be a "Rapture"....

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

 

HE left it to us to put it together...there are many many clues; a couple of which,  you have just been exposed to.

 

 

If I am not mistaken, the standard pre-trib view is that the rapture is symbolised by the ascension of John in Rev 4:1.

 

 

Yes, I have heard this.  There is also the Seven Lamp Stands (Which are the 7 "Churches") that are on the Earth in Revelation 1 & 2 and are in Heaven with John in Chapter 4.  I'm partial to the Identity of the 24 Elders which I believe is representative of "The Church"

 

 

But I think you will find that most other futurists and significantly non-futurists, who do not have any vested interest in the debate over the timing of the rapture, think that it would be reading too much into the text to say that John symbolises the church.

 

 

I don't "consult" either futurists or non-futurists (or anyone else for that matter)....It's one of my Refrigerator Rules  I roll with the Totality of Scripture....The Whole Counsel of GOD.

 

 

I am a mid-tribber 

 

 

That means the Rapture must take place AFTER the Abomination of Desolation and before Rev 19.  Of which, it is not spoken of (which we covered) and you still have the same 2 Issues (among others) I alluded to in the Post you quoted.

 

My position is well before Daniel's 70th Week...and to be somewhat more precise; before the Psalm 83 War.

[ghtan]

 

Correct on both counts.  The timing of the "actual event" is not depicted "specifically and directly" anywhere in Scripture...just the fact that there will be a "Rapture."

 

Hi there! Thanks for instruction on adding quotes. I think if the rapture is not found in Revelation, the post-trib case is most likely correct because the default would be that the rapture occurs together with the second coming as the latter is the context in which passages like 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 are found. But wouldn't it be odd for God to exclude such an important event as the Rapture from his latest and most extensive explanation of what to expect for the end time? I think it would be very odd, and so the rapture should be found somewhere in Revelation.

 

Mid tribs unfortunately cannot agree where in ch 6-19a to place the Rapture, but the clearest is the first harvest in 14:14-16. A harvest is an ingathering and what is gathered here are believers, as opposed to unbelievers in the second harvest. How are believers gathered? Either they are martyred or raptured. Martyrs would be gathered progressively as they are killed but the first harvest is gathered by "one like the son of man," a description that points to Jesus. I doubt that Jesus would come repeatedly to gather martyrs - that job would be left to angels - and so this is likely an important and one-time event. I think it has a good claim to be the rapture.

[Persuaded]

Yowza- read to the end of ch14- if that's the rapture I'd say "no thanks!"

This reaping sounds more like Mat 13:30, the tares.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

Correct on both counts.  The timing of the "actual event" is not depicted "specifically and directly" anywhere in Scripture...just the fact that there will be a "Rapture."

 

Hi there! Thanks for instruction on adding quotes. I think if the rapture is not found in Revelation, the post-trib case is most likely correct because the default would be that the rapture occurs together with the second coming as the latter is the context in which passages like 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 are found. But wouldn't it be odd for God to exclude such an important event as the Rapture from his latest and most extensive explanation of what to expect for the end time? I think it would be very odd, and so the rapture should be found somewhere in Revelation.

 

Mid tribs unfortunately cannot agree where in ch 6-19a to place the Rapture, but the clearest is the first harvest in 14:14-16. A harvest is an ingathering and what is gathered here are believers, as opposed to unbelievers in the second harvest. How are believers gathered? Either they are martyred or raptured. Martyrs would be gathered progressively as they are killed but the first harvest is gathered by "one like the son of man," a description that points to Jesus. I doubt that Jesus would come repeatedly to gather martyrs - that job would be left to angels - and so this is likely an important and one-time event. I think it has a good claim to be the rapture.

 

 

 

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I think if the rapture is not found in Revelation, the post-trib case is most likely correct because the default would be that the rapture occurs together with the second coming as the latter is the context in which passages like 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 are found.

 

 

Your statement doesn't make sense. The Second Coming and Post Tribulation events are mentioned in some detail.  So what you're essentially saying is... "since the Post Trib Rapture isn't mentioned with the Second Coming or Post Trib events it most likely occurs Post Trib  

 

 

as the latter is the context in which passages like 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 are found

 

 

There is no context whatsoever for that in those 2 Passages for that scenario.  I say again...

 

(The Rapture) Exhibit A:  (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

 

(The Second Coming) Exhibit B:  (Revelation 19:11-16) "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

Unless you can show: "a shout", "the voice of the archangel", "the trump of GOD", "Alive and DEAD meeting HIM in the clouds" in Revelation 19:11-16, OR, show a: "White Horse", "Faithful and True", "Judging and making War", "eyes as a Flame of Fire", 'many crowns", "clothed in a vesture dipped in blood", "armies clothed in white linen following", "a sharp sword out of HIS mouth"....in (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18), then these are clearly speaking to TWO Separate Events.

 

 

but the clearest is the first harvest in 14:14-16. A harvest is an ingathering and what is gathered here are believers, as opposed to unbelievers in the second harvest.

 

 

Ahhh, did you read the whole passage??  You think this is The Rapture? ....

 

(Revelation 14:14-20) "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.  {15} And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  {16} And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.  {17} And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.  {18} And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.  {19} And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.  {20} And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

 

This is ONE Harvest in two iterations and it's not the "Wheat and the Tares"....it's the Vine and Grapes. The Grapes are attached to the VINE!!  I'll highlight where they both end up...cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

This gives some corroboration....

 

(Jeremiah 25:30) "Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth."

 

 

Rev 14 speaks absolutely nothing whatsoever of this scenario... (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

 

Also, my concept of "The Rapture" doesn't have any "Thrusting Sharp Sickles" anywhere in the remote vicinity!!