A Long Hair, Tattoo Pastor

[LadyKay]

 

@ Lady Kay.  I understand what you are saying.  The reason I wouldn't attend a church where the Pastor has long hair is because I see the long hair on a man as in violation of scripture.  The same goes with a church where women in pants are the norm, especially at church.  It is not based on personal preference, but I see it as violating God's Word.  I don't normally avoid a church for what they don't allow.  I actually can conform to get along if need be.  I am more likely to stay away from a church for allowing things I find unbiblical.  Lets take something silly to me like requiring all to have long sleeve shirts, even in the heat of the summer.  If I really wanted to go there, I would wear a long sleeve shirt in July and go to church so as not to offend anyone.  Something like that wouldn't keep me away.  Even so, I do understand the point you are making about how we are all serving God according to our conscience.  Whether you realize it or not, what you are describing is how we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.  That is exactly what we are to do.

 

So Butero, there is something we can agree upon. God does work in strange ways. LOL

[MorningGlory]

 

 

but some think all facial hair on a man is wrong.

 

While I respect the believes of others, I do not see any Bible basses that says having a beard is wrong. While you would not attend a church that had a pastor with long hair or allowed women in pants. I would not attend a church that made the rule that having a beard is wrong. Not because I am a fan of beards, but because I think that such a teaching is not Biblical. So you see, we are not so different. As you choice to follow what you believe to be Biblical just as I do.

 

 

I'm not understanding the prohibition against facial hair on a man either.  We know Jesus Himself had a beard so how could it be wrong?  He can do no wrong because He's God. 

[alphaparticle]

@ The Patriot.  I know you are not a Nazarite Patriot, but you said you were and all Christians are, so I had to ask. 

 

@ Alphaparticle.  You wanted to take a look at a few verses together there in Leviticus 19:26-29.  Lets do that.

 

26  Ye shall not eat anything with the blood:  neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.

 

I believe in following that.  In the book of Acts, we are told not to eat blood.  That was one of the things specifically given to gentiles not to do.  I don't believe we should cast spells and follow horoscopes. 

 

27  Ye shall not round the corners of your head, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

 

To me, that would mean some kind of circular haircut or cutting your beard in a way where you are rounding the corners.  I am not fully sure exactly what is meant here, but I wouldn't ignore it.  I do try to avoid anything I might do that would be violating it.  I have thought about what it might look to have a goatie, but since that seems to be rounding the corners of my beard, I won't even entertain the thought.  I would have to be sure it was ok, and I have gotten used to being clean shaven.

 

28  Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you:  I am the LORD.

 

I wouldn't dream of doing either of these things.  No cuttings for the dead or tattoos.

 

29  Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.

 

Once again, there is no way I would prostitute my daughter.  I believe I should observe all of these things, so I don't see your point.  I don't even know why anyone would think it is ok to do these things.  They are all separate and unrelated ordinances, so it is not clear that the tattoos spoken of here have any particular context dealing with pagan worship.  It is just one ordinance after another, and for me personally, I believe we should observe all of them that were listed here.

 

@ LadyKay.  You have to remember the type of church I was part of.  I was Pastor of a Holiness church.  Many people in holiness circles believe that facial hair is wrong, because they look at it as long hair.  I personally can see that point being made with a long beard, like some people have, but some think all facial hair on a man is wrong.  A visitor pointed that out to me, and I went home and thought about it.  I had no convictions about it whatsoever, and had had a mustache since I was old enough to grow one.  It was something I wanted to keep, but to end the controversy, I shaved it off.  I was really bothered by it for a while.  As crazy as it sounds, it was like I gave up part of myself, but over time, I got used to it being gone.  Recently, my wife made a comment about how I would look if I had it back, so I grew it back, and decided I didn't really like it anymore, so I shaved it off again after a couple of months.  If you have never been part of conservative Independent Baptist Churches or Holiness or Apostolic Churches or even some Wesleyan Churches, you wouldn't understand the many things people have issues with.  I have know of churches where men having a short sleeved shirt on was wrong.  I was part of a Holiness congregation, and to be even somewhat effective, I had to have a certain look.  Again, it seemed like more of a big deal than it turned out to be. 

I'm afraid you missed my point. Look again at v 29. It says not to prostitute your daughter lest you defile *the land*. The land is Israel. These are commandments given to the Israelites *explicitly* in the context. Therefore I would not use v 29 here to argue against prostituting your daughter, I'd use a plethora of other verses which more clearly deal with believers in a general sense.

 

The only thing I can take away from these verses is how God wanted Israel and how He wanted the Israelites to behave. Gaining insight into what we believers should do from that is very tricky business.

[alphaparticle]

If it would defile the land of Israel, it will defile America.  I personally would apply that to myself today. 

This is an enormous amount of theological speculation.

[ayin jade]

How are we bound to all of old testament law? Which ones do you keep and which do you reject? Do you mix fibers? Wearing any cotton/poly blends? Do you eat pepperoni pizza? Do you eat shrimp or bacon? What criteria do you have to decide which of the 613 or so laws you keep?

[FresnoJoe]

If it would defile the land of Israel, it will defile America. 

I personally would apply that to myself today. 

 

 

But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him

without keeping the requirements of the law,

as was promised in the writings of Moses

and the prophets long ago.

 

We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ.

And this is true for everyone who believes,

no matter who we are. Romans 3:21-22 (NLT)

 

~

 

How are we bound to all of old testament law? Which ones do you keep and which do you reject?

Do you mix fibers? Wearing any cotton/poly blends? Do you eat pepperoni pizza?

Do you eat shrimp or bacon?

 

What criteria do you have to decide which of the 613 or so laws you keep?

 

~

 

lol Sister~!

 

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. Deuteronomy 4:2 (NIV)

 

And Who Decided All Pants Are Somehow Biblically Male

 

A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this. Deuteronomy 22:5 (NIV)

 

Yet Work Boots And Gloves Remain Neutral

 

The wise woman builds her house, but with her own hands the foolish one tears hers down.  Proverbs 14:1 (NIV)

 

Work Woman, Work

 

[Gerioke]

I do not wish to start a fire but I am interesting in how people think. I find myself being well shocked I guess at people who are Believers, having issues with other Believers out word appearance. I am friends with a pastor who happens to have long hair and tattoos. He is a Godly man who gave up most of what he owns so that he could better serve the homeless. But he says that he gets hate mail from other Believers who condemn him because of his long hair and tattoos. I find this to be rather shocking. So I am simply going to ask you all who are Believers, would you have an issue with a pastor  because they have long hair and tattoos?  I am going to refrain from debating this issue and I will not try to change anyone's point of view. I just want to see what other Believers think about this.

I think people who have tattoos, who were formerly nonbelievers, have no issue with God. I would not recommend tatoos for believers as it is evidence of vanity. The same could be said for long hair. I used to have very long hair until I realized the pridefulness that came with it. Long hair would depend on the reasoning.

[Qnts2]

I have addressed how we decide which laws apply and which don't so many times I have lost count.  There are 3 types of laws in the Law of Moses.  1.  The Laws dealing with the office of the Levitical Priests.  They were never intended to continue past the cross, so we know they no longer apply.  2.  The Laws dealing with Israel being a separate people from the idol worshipping gentile nations around them.  They no longer apply because they were only for Israel.  Today, all believers are part of one body.  3.  Laws dealing with morality.  They do still apply.  Those are laws that show what God considers clean and unclean acts. 

 

It is utterly absurd to claim we don't need to concern ourselves with any part of the law of Moses, as Paul himself gives us lists of things that if we do them, we shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven.  Even the people that go around and ask questions like Ayin Jade just asked me, or that make comments like Fresno Joe just made, will at times tell us certain things are wrong, and they come right out of the law of Moses.  How do I know that it is wrong for a brother to marry his sister?  The law of Moses.  It isn't mentioned in the New Testament.  How do I know it is wrong to try to contact the dead?  The law of Moses.  Necromancy is something mentioned in the Old Testament.  Do those things apply today?  I would say they do.  I have seen Ayin Jade and Fresno Joe attack polygamy, even though neither are called a sin in the Old Testament or the New Testament, while they both defend things that are said to be wrong in scripture.  Fresno Joe continues to defend something the Bible calls an abomination. 

 

God has not shown us that it is ok to do anything we want and be saved, just because we place our trust in Christ.  God has not shown us we will make it to heaven, just because we trust in Christ, no matter what we do. 

 

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?  Be not deceived:  neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.  1 Corinthians 6:9,10

 

Here is a list of things Paul states will keep you from making it to heaven, and he doesn't say "unless you put your trust in Christ."  He says it in absolute terms.  There is a similar list in Galatians.  The moral laws still pertain to us today.  What we must determine is what types of laws we are dealing with in each circumstance.  Why were the children of Israel not to wear material made of two fabrics?  It was a law of separation.  It had no other purpose, so it doesn't apply today.  What about abstaining from anything but kosher foods?  That was a law of separation, and we clearly see that with Peter's vision.  On the other hand, what about man not lying with mankind as he does with women?  Homosexual acts being wrong is a moral law, so it does apply.  What about having no gods before the true and living God?  That still applies, as it is a moral law.  Pretty simple really. 

 

What is this obsession with clothing Fresno Joe?  I thought we were discussing hair and tattoos in this thread?  I have already addressed you on this matter repeatedly.  Nobody is adding to the Word of God, except perhaps you with regard to polygamy, because scripture never calls it a sin.  I am not adding anything to the law.  I am only making an application.  It is not different than if I mention necromancy and say a séance is wrong.  The Bible never forbids us to have a séance, but it does mention necromancy, so I am not adding to the Word to make the application.  The Bible comes against lust, so if I say pornography is wrong, though it is not mentioned in the Bible, I am making an application.  Again, pretty simple stuff.  I do the same thing with regard to clothing that pertains to a man or a woman.  Where does the Bible say a sun dress is a woman's garment?  It doesn't, but I know it is a woman's garment, therefore I can apply Deuteronomy 22:5 and say I should not wear one as a man.  The same thing applies to women wearing pants.  Look at the universal symbol on the bathroom walls.  Who decided that the picture of the person in pants pertains to a man and the picture of the person in a dress pertains to a woman?  We just know they do.  Work boots and gloves are unisex, yet a bra is not.  How do we determine that Fresno Joes, considering the fact the word bra isn't in the Bible.  Even a woman on your side of the debate here at Worthy Boards came out and said that women who wear jeans and slacks are dressing like a man.  I could bring up the quote again, by I will refrain for the time being.  Her view was it doesn't matter because we are under grace and not the law.  I don't agree with that, but I do agree with her that women who wear pants are dressing like a man. 

 

The Mosaic law is one unit, in the Mosaic covenant. One can not pick and choose which laws they will observe for if they do, they are violating the Mosaic covenant.

 

Deut 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

 

Deut 12:32 Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it

 

In the OT, the laws are not defined into groups of Priest laws, separation laws or moral laws. To achieve such a division is by personal private interpretation. 

[JohnD]

I do not wish to start a fire but I am interesting in how people think. I find myself being well shocked I guess at people who are Believers, having issues with other Believers out word appearance. I am friends with a pastor who happens to have long hair and tattoos. He is a Godly man who gave up most of what he owns so that he could better serve the homeless. But he says that he gets hate mail from other Believers who condemn him because of his long hair and tattoos. I find this to be rather shocking. So I am simply going to ask you all who are Believers, would you have an issue with a pastor  because they have long hair and tattoos?  I am going to refrain from debating this issue and I will not try to change anyone's point of view. I just want to see what other Believers think about this.

 

Part of this stems from not conforming to God's Word the Bible, but instead designing the faith to fit personal preferences by dressing them up in Church tradition (all they are are the traditions of men). It's more the "us and them" mentality. We do this and we don't do that and thems that doesn't do it this way... ain't one of us... ain't true believer's... ain't saved. I recall some Christians in the past actually saying they cannot believe a person could be a Democrat and be a Christian.

 

Is that stupid or what?!

[JohnD]

The late Pastor Chuck Smith (still hard to believe he is gone since October 2013) started the Calvary Chapel movement (some say denomination) with 25 members in a small traditional Four Square Church that was about to shut its doors for good. This was in the 1960's when what grew into the tattoo craze today was among the outcasts like the hippies and the surfers, and drunks, and bums... wonderful terms used back then to describe those who were considered and treated like the dregs of humanity in those days.

 

I believe it was Cheryl Smith (his daughter) who brought a biker-type home one day and found that Pastor Chuck embraced them with the same sincere love of Jesus he would a man in a three-piece suit from Wall Street. He told his friends and before you know it the Church was cram packed with so many they had to rent and then buy an old circus tent for the crowds as the building was being built (Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, Ca). In 1995 when my beloved and I visited there you could still see whole sections of bikers, tattoos, body piercings perfectly at home in the house of the Lord...

 

Pastor Chuck and that infectious smile of his... had David Hocking as his assistant pastor in those days... a man who Pastor Chuck gave another chance after having fallen into a moral failure and lost a ministry he had built up from the ground. Not many would have given him that second chance. Certainly not in the ministry.

 

There are many who (perhaps even here) have bought into the anti-Calvary Chapel sentiment that grew from the "us and them" mentality of those who thought it should be run differently than the way Pastor Chuck ran the movement (distancing it from factions that rose up including one lead by his namesake son Chuck jr. and the Vineyard movement)... But he set aside even his own denominational dogmas (Four Square Pentecostalism) to preach Jesus unconditionally and to study the Bible (verse by verse) and preaching Jesus unconditionally means to everyone who needs Jesus and that's everyone including surfers, bikers, tattoo artists, body piercing artists, drunks, vagrants,  bums, hippies, black, white, yellow, brown, punk, AND rich, powerful, etc.