could man enter heaven before Christ atonement

[JohnD]

Again, the emphasis of the Lord of all truth (the LORD) is Grace through faith. Abraham had it (imputed righteousness) before the Law: which was also to show humanity what righteousness is, what it cost, how we could never afford or achieve it on our own. 

[Larry 2]

 

On the cross the thief said unto Jesus:

Luk 23:42  And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 

Luk 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. 

Was it in heaven?

 

Since Jesus must first descend, and the thief was to be with Him in paradise that day, paradise was in Abraham's bosom. After Jesus was resurrected heaven was open, took those captive in paradise to heaven and now as Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

John 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren (Where were they at?), and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

Captivity in Abraham's Bosom.

Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 

Eph 4:9  Now that He (Jesus) ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

This was the paradise the thief went with Jesus to from the cross. It is now in heaven.

 

Ephesians 4:8–10 (NASB95)

⁸Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.”

⁹(Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?

¹⁰He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

 

1. The indication that Jesus' body was in the tomb (3 days 3 nights) but his Spirit was in Abraham's Bosom / Hades / Sheol for an undisclosed amount of time.

2. Jesus led the captivity (occupants of Abraham's Bosom) captive (from captivity) in his rising to heaven in Spirit in the same condition as the occupants of Abraham's Bosom (spirit).

3. The very same condition all believers henceforth have gone into heaven at the death of their bodies ever since.

 

2 Corinthians 5:1–8 (NASB95)

¹For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

²For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,

³inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

⁴For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

⁵Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

⁶Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—

⁷for we walk by faith, not by sight—

⁸we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

 

4. Ephesians 4:8-10 took place in that 3 hour time frame between the death of Jesus (3PM) and the close of day (sunset / 6PM).

5. Paradise was always heaven / never was anywhere else.

 

Dear Brother JohnD, I agree with most of what you posted except items 1, 4, & 5 above.

 

What makes you think Jesus’ body remained in the sepulcher for those three days? You do realize that Jesus appeared to those that came to the tomb in bodily form before He rose to heaven?

 

#1 answer -  Luk 24:1  Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Luk 24:2  And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

Luk 24:3  And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

 

#2 answer -  I have no idea where you get the idea that Eph 4:8-10  was  only three hours.

John 1:17  Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Mat 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 

 

#3 answer – For Paradise to have been in heaven before Jesus died, and His promise to have the thief with Him there that very day means that what Jesus told those who came to the tomb three days later that He had not yet ascended to His Father in heaven. How did the thief get there?

Joh 20:1  The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Joh 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

Thanks for your response.

[JohnD]

Hello, Larry.

 

I was afraid when I said 3 days 3 nights someone would pick up on the argument was it a literal 72 hours or not?

 

Wasn't the point. Will argue it in another thread if you wish. The point was the tomb was the disposition of his body only.

 

Also Ephesians 4:8-10 did not specify how long it took. Jesus on the cross said that day the thief would be with him and they would be in Paradise. Paradise appears 3 times in scripture. Each points to the third heaven where God is†††. The scriptures tell us Jesus died at 3PM and sunset is the end / beginning of days on the Jewish calendar (also according to scripture). Ego, he had roughly 3 hours in our time to do what the Bible describes as preaching to the condemned spirits in prison (one of Peter's epistles) and leading the captive to heaven. 

 

In John 20, the condition Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father in was his resurrected condition. This does not mean he could not or did not ascend to heaven in his disembodied Spirit.  The entire point of that ascension on the morrow after the sabbath was to fulfill Mosaic Law regarding the firstfruits at the Barley Harvest (prophetic of his resurrection victory over death) to present himself as the wave offering before God (See Exodus 23). This is also why he did not allow one of the women to tough him as she may have had an issue of Levitical uncleanness (menstruation more than likely) as the others clasped his feet and were not forbidden...

 

†††

Paradise (not the TV Show starring Lee Horsley) :

 

Revelation 2:7 (NASB95)

⁷‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

 

2 Corinthians 12:2–4 (NASB95)

²I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

³And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—

⁴was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

 

Luke 23:43 (NASB95)

⁴³And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

[Larry 2]

Hello, Larry.

 

I was afraid when I said 3 days 3 nights someone would pick up on the argument was it a literal 72 hours or not?

 

Wasn't the point. Will argue it in another thread if you wish. The point was the tomb was the disposition of his body only.

 

Also Ephesians 4:8-10 did not specify how long it took. Jesus on the cross said that day the thief would be with him and they would be in Paradise. Paradise appears 3 times in scripture. Each points to the third heaven where God is†††. The scriptures tell us Jesus died at 3PM and sunset is the end / beginning of days on the Jewish calendar (also according to scripture). Ego, he had roughly 3 hours in our time to do what the Bible describes as preaching to the condemned spirits in prison (one of Peter's epistles) and leading the captive to heaven. 

 

In John 20, the condition Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father in was his resurrected condition. This does not mean he could not or did not ascend to heaven in his disembodied Spirit.  The entire point of that ascension on the morrow after the sabbath was to fulfill Mosaic Law regarding the firstfruits at the Barley Harvest (prophetic of his resurrection victory over death) to present himself as the wave offering before God (See Exodus 23). This is also why he did not allow one of the women to tough him as she may have had an issue of Levitical uncleanness (menstruation more than likely) as the others clasped his feet and were not forbidden...

 

†††

Paradise (not the TV Show starring Lee Horsley) :

 

Revelation 2:7 (NASB95)

⁷‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

 

2 Corinthians 12:2–4 (NASB95)

²I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

³And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—

⁴was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

 

Luke 23:43 (NASB95)

⁴³And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

JohnD, I do agree that paradise is in heaven today since Jesus died and opened the door. I do not agree that paradise was anywhere but in the lower parts of the earth prior to that according to Luk 16:25  that Lazarus was comforted there as part of the elect until Jesus died for them.

 

Regardless how  we look at it, after three days Jesus had still not ascended unto the Father, and neither did the thief in my opinion.

Joh 20:17  . .  I am not yet ascended to my Father:

 

Thanks JohnD.

[Your closest friendnt]

Jesus said: the devil is coming and he had nothing in me:

Jesus did not descended in the depts of the earth, voluntarily , no, he follow the human inheritance which it was only one, and that was not up, but only down, so Jesus had no choice but to surenter him self to the devil to go down for three days not 72 hours. But the devil had a problem, the one he took this time had the life in him, he was diferent from the rest of the people. Did Jesus fall on the cross or not? How would you know? Jesus was also a prisoner down there a prisoner of the devil a prisoner of his humans inheritance. Then we have the testimony of God, on the third day God called him to come out , he declare that he did not fall, that he belongs to him he had the life in him, he was the only one, God raise him from the dead, and gave him a new inheritance the heavens not only for him but also for his children, his was the first to go to this new heavenly inheritance he open the way for us.those he redeem and he gives also his life,what did he do down there for three days we don't say 72 hours we say three days, what do you think? Was he praying or crying to God, don't forget me here, I don't want to be here , or ,,,,

Do you think he did not know his mission to set the captives free, to open the prisons doors? Dont you know what Jesus show us in philipies with the earthquake and the bonds of the prisoners falling off including Paul and the disciples with him can you see everyones bonds fall off but only the beleiver with the life walk out of their sells to freedom, Jesus preach the Gospel to all down there beginning from his children who were inform from Jonh the Baptis who went before him to proclaim his coming to his children and he went to all till the first man who died Abel, and the scripture was fullfield the revence id mine, ( another I. D. Who jesus was before he empty him self from every thing to be born from Mary, Every one must here the Gospel those who died before Jesus the heard the Gospel from Jesus and out of the body and received the eternal life by faith, jesus died for all and if the thief was there and he must be he also beleive and receive the eternal life and the other theif also heard the gospel he was invited to neleive also. At the end of the three days God raise Jesus from the dead and gave him the heavenly prish Land for him and everyone with the life, Jesus is alive, James said do you want to know something Jesus is available.

[vic66]

The reward of heaven / paradise / the better country is at the first resurrection not before.

 

all the righteous dead must to weight in Abraham bosom / asleep in Christ until the first resurrection take's place

 

Job 14:13-15, O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou would appoint me a set time, and remember me. If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait till my change come. Thou shall call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have desire to the work of thine hands.

 

As for where Christ soul went while his body was in the tomb.?   

 

1 peter3:19-20 By the which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.(hell/sheol/Hades)

 

which sometimes were disobedient when the longsuffering od God waited in the days of noah, while the ark was preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water

 

Acts2:Because thou will not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

 

Jonan:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

 

David a type of Christ writes: whither shall I go from thy spirit or whither shall I flee from thy presence? if I ascend up to heaven thou [art] there if I make my bed in hell thou [art there]

 

Christ went to hell for us the just for the unjust, but because Christ was faultless, sinless hell/death and the grave could not hold him captive.

 

My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit praise his name,

even death could not hold him captive even he the grave he his lord

even death could not hold him captive even in the grave he his Lord!.

Edited July 13, 2015 by vic66

[JohnD]

JohnD, I do agree that paradise is in heaven today since Jesus died and opened the door. I do not agree that paradise was anywhere but in the lower parts of the earth prior to that according to Luk 16:25  that Lazarus was comforted there as part of the elect until Jesus died for them.

 

Regardless how  we look at it, after three days Jesus had still not ascended unto the Father, and neither did the thief in my opinion.

Joh 20:17  . .  I am not yet ascended to my Father:

 

Thanks JohnD.

 

 

1. Paradise is not defined in scripture as being anywhere but the third heaven where God is. Only through extra biblical (human) reason does one come up with a mobile Paradise.

 

2. Jesus said I am not yet ascended to my Father... which he could only say in bodily form since he was not a created being in Spirit, and the Father is not the Father of his Spirit but only of his Body:

 

Hebrews 10:5 (NASB95)

⁵Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;

 

Hebrews 1:5 (NASB95)

⁵For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me”?

 

John 1:14 (NASB95)

¹⁴And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

Footnote:

I am unable or unwilling to police each posting to answer every subsequent point brought up by opponents.

So sometimes they will appear to have the "last word."

But notice the difference is I have cited and quoted scriptures as opposed to the mere opinion / belief of my opponent. 

[Larry 2]

 

JohnD, I do agree that paradise is in heaven today since Jesus died and opened the door. I do not agree that paradise was anywhere but in the lower parts of the earth prior to that according to Luk 16:25  that Lazarus was comforted there as part of the elect until Jesus died for them.

 

Regardless how  we look at it, after three days Jesus had still not ascended unto the Father, and neither did the thief in my opinion.

Joh 20:17  . .  I am not yet ascended to my Father:

 

Thanks JohnD.

 

 

1. Paradise is not defined in scripture as being anywhere but the third heaven where God is. Only through extra biblical (human) reason does one come up with a mobile Paradise.

 

2. Jesus said I am not yet ascended to my Father... which he could only say in bodily form since he was not a created being in Spirit, and the Father is not the Father of his Spirit but only of his Body:

 

Hebrews 10:5 (NASB95)

⁵Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;

 

Hebrews 1:5 (NASB95)

⁵For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me”?

 

John 1:14 (NASB95)

¹⁴And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

Footnote:

I am unable or unwilling to police each posting to answer every subsequent point brought up by opponents.

So sometimes they will appear to have the "last word."

But notice the difference is I have cited and quoted scriptures as opposed to the mere opinion / belief of my opponent. 

 

Dear Brother JohnD, I reckon we'll just have to have differing opinions on where paradise was, and is. It will not change the hope we have in Christ. Thanks for your replies, and may God continue to bless you in Jesus' name.

[Riverwalker]

On the cross the thief said unto Jesus:

Luk 23:42  And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 

Luk 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. 

Was it in heaven?

 

Since Jesus must first descend, and the thief was to be with Him in paradise that day, paradise was in Abraham's bosom. After Jesus was resurrected heaven was open, took those captive in paradise to heaven and now as Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

John 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren (Where were they at?), and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

Captivity in Abraham's Bosom.

Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 

Eph 4:9  Now that He (Jesus) ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

This was the paradise the thief went with Jesus to from the cross. It is now in heaven.

Yes very good

 

The faith the old testament saints and the new testament saints was the same

 

Faith in the saving Messiah.  the only difference was time

 

and since the Jesus had not yet paid the price and shed the blood that washes away our sin.....they could not stand before God

 

 

So paradise was their place of waiting

 

 

It is empty now.....for now we are seated in Heavenly places with Christ and to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord

Edited July 13, 2015 by Riverwalker

[MorningGlory]

Jesus said: the devil is coming and he had nothing in me:

Jesus did not descended in the depts of the earth, voluntarily , no, he follow the human inheritance which it was only one, and that was not up, but only down, so Jesus had no choice but to surenter him self to the devil to go down for three days not 72 hours. But the devil had a problem, the one he took this time had the life in him, he was diferent from the rest of the people. Did Jesus fall on the cross or not? How would you know? Jesus was also a prisoner down there a prisoner of the devil a prisoner of his humans inheritance. Then we have the testimony of God, on the third day God called him to come out , he declare that he did not fall, that he belongs to him he had the life in him, he was the only one, God raise him from the dead, and gave him a new inheritance the heavens not only for him but also for his children, his was the first to go to this new heavenly inheritance he open the way for us.those he redeem and he gives also his life,what did he do down there for three days we don't say 72 hours we say three days, what do you think? Was he praying or crying to God, don't forget me here, I don't want to be here , or ,,,,

Do you think he did not know his mission to set the captives free, to open the prisons doors? Dont you know what Jesus show us in philipies with the earthquake and the bonds of the prisoners falling off including Paul and the disciples with him can you see everyones bonds fall off but only the beleiver with the life walk out of their sells to freedom, Jesus preach the Gospel to all down there beginning from his children who were inform from Jonh the Baptis who went before him to proclaim his coming to his children and he went to all till the first man who died Abel, and the scripture was fullfield the revence id mine, ( another I. D. Who jesus was before he empty him self from every thing to be born from Mary, Every one must here the Gospel those who died before Jesus the heard the Gospel from Jesus and out of the body and received the eternal life by faith, jesus died for all and if the thief was there and he must be he also beleive and receive the eternal life and the other theif also heard the gospel he was invited to neleive also. At the end of the three days God raise Jesus from the dead and gave him the heavenly prish Land for him and everyone with the life, Jesus is alive, James said do you want to know something Jesus is available.

 

Satan, a.k.a. 'the devil' has NO power over Jesus, who is God.  Jesus went into Hades of His own volition.  I honestly don't know where you get some of the stuff you post, nt.  Are you reading from the Bible or is someone telling you these things?  As for the underlined, above, He was, is and always will be GOD.