Was The fall of Lucifer/Satan;Before The Creation or After The Creatio

[WilliamL]

Regarding when Satan first rebelled (which does not equate to him falling or being cast down), a Jewish teaching is that his rebellion began when Adam was created, and God told all creatures to bow (and/or kneel) before him, because Adam was the fulfillment and thus the preeminent of all of God's Creation (being created last, and thus most complete).

Satan and other angels refused, believing themselves eternally superior to the creation made of dust. Michael was the first to show obeisance, and was appointed chief of the heavenly host.

 

1 Cor. 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels?

[1to3]

It is to my understanding

that

 

Satan tempted a 1/3 other angels to follow him.

so his sin-pride- began before he tempted Adam

it began in heaven? or on earth as Lucifer may have had right to both heaven and earth before his fall.

If his fall was in heaven then  the second heaven if the 3rd heaven is considered completely Holy and Light were no sin or darkness can possibly exist (1John ch1:5)?

 

To be cast out of heaven ,

another place would have to exist for satan to be cast out and placed somewhere else?

Earth seems the logical place that satan has been cast down to from heaven

 

After sin entered Lucifer, God cast down Lucifer now called satan and his angels now devils down to earth from heaven,(did not permit them back into heaven, the 3rd heaven that is HOLY, they are still allowed other principalities of darkness of the air. Eph.6

 

Perhaps like it was said before,

after the earth was created and after Adam and Eve were created,

as when they were created all was still good, animals did not kill one another,

Adam and Eve were vegetarians and so were the animals.

So Lucifer/satan would have fallen into sin and been cast down to the earth after the creation of animals and man

 

 

after this, the pride of satan entered Eve through guile in the form of the serpent, and then Adam and then the rest of creation,

and so, paradise became lost.

 

Had Adam been alert and stronger than Eve to resist temptation, he would had told Eve to put that fruit down, as God had told Adam first about the Tree of knowledge of good and evil and then Adam told this to Eve.

If Eve ate the fruit first without Adam around to tell her not to, maybe Adam yielded because he saw that Eve still looked alive after her bite into the fruit.

 

◄ Genesis 1:21 ►

The Fifth Day: Fish and Birds
20Then God said, "Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens." 21God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."

 

 

◄ Genesis 1:27 ►

The Sixth Day: Creatures on Land
…26Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."…

 

◄ Genesis 1:29 ►

 29Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.

 

satan was still Lucifer not yet fallen after the six day :

The Bible tells us that Lucifer was in Eden (which was created on day 6) and was still without sin on that day.

Ezekiel 28:13 (KJV)

“Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

 

So then, Lucifer if he did go into the garden of Eden as Lucifer before his fall (as referred to in Ezekiel 28:13), he too then must have seen the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

Could Lucifer have been the first filled with his own pride to succumb to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil , tempt  1/3 of the angels to do the same and then tempt Eve and then Adam?

 

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:7-9)

 

Genesis ch2:1,4

1-Thus the heavens and the earth and all the host of them, were finished.

2- And on the seventh day God  ended His work which He had done,

and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

3- then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested

from all His work which God had created and made.

4-That is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day

that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens

 

 

Genesis 2:17

16-And the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.

17- but  of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat , for in the day you eat

of it you shall surely die.

 

 

in Genesis 2:17 God told Adam of the test. From there Adam told Eve. Than after the creation of Eve is created it is revealed that the devil is around taking the form of a serpent .Concluding that after Eve was created, satan was  cast out from Heaven  with the third of Heaven's angels.

 

so God informed Adam before even Eve was created of the consequence of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil

 

Genesis 2:18

And then the Lord God said,"It is not good that man should be alone, I will make him a helper comparable to him.

 

19 Out of the ground the Lord formed every beast of the field and every bird o9f air, and brought them to adam to see what

he could call them. and whatever Adam called each living creature, that was  its name.

20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to  the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field.

But  for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

21

And the Lord caused a deep deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slep, and He took one of the ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place.

22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man he made into woman, and He brought her to man.

 

After all this the temptation from satan came

 

When Christ was here as a man, he told His disciples about the falling of Satan from Heaven. Notice, He put it in the past tense, indicating that it already happened.

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. (Luke 10:18)

 

 

God cast satan down and let him possess a serpent, so it would be after  man and animals were created and living peacefully for a while as vegetarians. that satan was cast down to earth with the accessibility

of traveling the air principalities to enter and possess a serpent? Ephesians 6

 

After the temptation of man/woman all creation fell.

Killings began, animals and men began to kill in order to survive.

Pain, hard labor and sickness and death followed became the lot

of the now paradise lost that we live in.

From that point onwards

Gods plan of Mercy and Grace began and

God sent His only begotten Son to salvage us back to Him.

 

 

QUESTION?

 

Ezekiel 28:13 (KJV)

“Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

 

If Lucifer was allowed in the garden of Eden as mentioned in Ezekiel could he not have been the first one to succumb through his own pride to the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

And then be cast down to earth with 1/3 of the angels following suit and then tempt Eve and Adam?

[other one]

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:7-9)

 

 

The first two verses of Chapter 12 tells of a vision seen in the heavens concerning a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet and 12 stars in her crown about to give birth........

 

Are you aware that vision will actually be in the heavens in 2017, and has not happened since long before the creation of Adam.....    and as far as i can surmise will not happen again within the next 8,000 years.

[missmuffet]

Question: "How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven?"

Answer:Satan’s fall from heaven is symbolically described inIsaiah 14:12-14andEzekiel 28:12-18. While these two passages are referring specifically to the kings of Babylon and Tyre, they also reference the spiritual power behind those kings, namely, Satan. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not specifically say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4-7). Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). Satan’s fall, therefore, must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred a few minutes, hours, or days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden, Scripture does not specifically say.

The book of Job tells us, at least at that time, Satan still had access to heaven and to the throne of God. “One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, ’Where have you come from?’ Satan answered the LORD, ‘From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it’” (Job 1:6-7). Apparently at that time, Satan was still moving freely between heaven and earth, speaking to God directly and answering for his activities. At what point God discontinued this access is unknown.

Why did Satan fall from heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many “I will...” statements inIsaiah 14:12-15.Ezekiel 28:12-15describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God's creations, but he was not content in his position. Instead, Satan desired to be God, to essentially “kick God off His throne” and take over the rule of the universe. Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). How did Satan fall from heaven? Actually, a fall is not an accurate description. It would be far more accurate to say God cast Satan out of heaven (Isaiah 14:15;Ezekiel 28:16-17). Satan did not fall from heaven; rather, Satan waspushedout of heaven.

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-fall.html#ixzz3gYt5gELU

[MorningGlory]

 

Jerry1023 said in post 1:

 

A new convert boldly ask me this questiln,between the creation of man and the fall of lucifer,which one take place first?

 

Satan could have been created very long before Adam was created only about 6,000 years ago. And yet Satan may not have fallen until shortly after Adam was created.

 

That is, Satan, who is a literal, 7-headed, red, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34), could have begun his existence as a dinosaur born some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved (or been miraculously granted by God) to have consciousness as we know it. And his 7-headedness, which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world. As he grew up as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all of his heart. God could have then granted him immortality and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherub. Cherubim are a type of angelic being (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphim are a different type of angelic being (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherub in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer" (which means "the morning star").

 

 

The above is as far as I wanted to go with your post B2.  This utter nonsense.  Did you write it as a novel or something?  The Bible says NONE of that and, if it's not i n Scripture, it's a lie.  You should not present this stuff as teaching, if that's what you're doing. 

[missmuffet]

 

 

Jerry1023 said in post 1:

 

A new convert boldly ask me this questiln,between the creation of man and the fall of lucifer,which one take place first?

 

Satan could have been created very long before Adam was created only about 6,000 years ago. And yet Satan may not have fallen until shortly after Adam was created.

 

That is, Satan, who is a literal, 7-headed, red, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34), could have begun his existence as a dinosaur born some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved (or been miraculously granted by God) to have consciousness as we know it. And his 7-headedness, which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world. As he grew up as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all of his heart. God could have then granted him immortality and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherub. Cherubim are a type of angelic being (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphim are a different type of angelic being (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherub in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer" (which means "the morning star").

 

 

The above is as far as I wanted to go with your post B2.  This utter nonsense.  Did you write it as a novel or something?  The Bible says NONE of that and, if it's not i n Scripture, it's a lie.  You should not present this stuff as teaching, if that's what you're doing. 

 

Now do you see how frustrated I get?

[other one]

 

Jerry1023 said in post 1:

 

A new convert boldly ask me this questiln,between the creation of man and the fall of lucifer,which one take place first?

 

Satan could have been created very long before Adam was created only about 6,000 years ago. And yet Satan may not have fallen until shortly after Adam was created.

 

That is, Satan, who is a literal, 7-headed, red, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34), could have begun his existence as a dinosaur born some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved (or been miraculously granted by God) to have consciousness as we know it. And his 7-headedness, which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world. As he grew up as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all of his heart. God could have then granted him immortality and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherub. Cherubim are a type of angelic being (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphim are a different type of angelic being (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherub in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer" (which means "the morning star").

 

After spending some 66 million years in heaven as a very contented cherub, perhaps even as one of the greatest angelic beings in heaven, Lucifer could have been assigned by God to go to the earth to be a "covering cherub" over the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-14), to watch over that special, local garden and its special, individual humans named Adam and Eve miraculously created by God only some 6,000 years ago. God could have also at that time given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all the rest of the earth (cf. Luke 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as wholly beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit two pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska.

 

From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God, and vowed to himself that eventually he would ascend back into heaven and take rule over all the angelic beings there, regardless of what God wanted (Isaiah 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), which means the "Adversary". While still in Eden, as possibly his first act of open rebellion against God, Satan decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3), knowing that this would result in her (and her offspring) becoming mortal (Genesis 2:17). In the future, he will deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into worshipping himself and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8), knowing that this will result in billions of people ending up in eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-11), the same eternal suffering which he knows that he himself will end up in (Revelation 12:12c, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

Lucifer will deceive the world into worshipping him after he loses a future war in heaven at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and is cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:7 to 13:4). But instead of coming down looking defeated, he could descend to the earth in a magnificent, gigantic golden spaceship for all the world to see. The world could see him as an alien, but he could slither forth from his spaceship and say something like: "Greetings! Be not alarmed. I assure you that I am no alien, but a fellow earthling, born and raised on this planet millions of years ago. I have come to help you through this terrible tribulation which you are experiencing, and to show you how you might eventually return with me back into a much better, higher realm of existence wholly beyond this evil, material universe".

 

He could then foist upon the world an updated version of an ancient Gnostic lie: "Listen, my fellow earthlings! None of us belong here. We didn't start out here, but all started out as wholly-spiritual beings, even wholly-divine beings, residing in utter bliss from all eternity in the Pleroma, what you would call Heaven, the higher realm which I will eventually take you back to. During the endless ages of our past existence in the Pleroma, we were not averse to partaking in a great variety of different entertainments. So when YHWH, who was one of us, yet of greater consciousness than any one of us, announced that he had devised a marvelous new form of entertainment, we were ready to give it a try.

 

"YHWH said that he had created a physical universe (this one), which to us was like what you would call a virtual reality, like the ones you create using computers. And he said that we could enter this universe and interact with all of its amazing physical life-forms and objects by temporarily taking upon ourselves physical bodies, which to us was the equivalent of what you would call a virtual-reality headset, gloves, etc., which some of you wear on your bodies when you want to wholly immerse yourselves in the virtual realities which you create with computers.

 

"But then YHWH proposed another aspect to his entertainment which we all most foolishly accepted. He said that in order to increase the intensity of our experience in his universe, he would use his greater consciousness to hypnotize each of ours, so that while we were in his universe each of us would think that all we were were physical entities within his material universe; we would completely forget that we were actually wholly-divine beings, and had been from all eternity, dwelling in bliss in the Pleroma.

 

"When one of us asked YHWH: 'But what if we don't like our experience in your universe and want to exit it and return here to the Pleroma, how could we ever notify you of our wishes when under your hypnotic spell we will have no knowledge of that option?' YHWH answered in a very assuring manner that he would be able to instantly extricate any one of us whom he saw was not enjoying his new entertainment. We all believed him, because he had not yet shown his true nature to anyone. We had no idea that in his heart he was actually an evil, cruel tyrant who all along had been planning to imprison, enslave, and torture all of us within his diabolical device.

 

"But during my great sufferings in YHWH's physical realm, and the great struggles of my consciousness, my spirit, to find a way of escaping them, my spirit eventually grew in power to be equal to YHWH's, and so I was able to break myself free from his hypnotic spell, and regain all of my divine power. I can show you the way to do the same thing, but you must be willing to join with me now with all of your own consciousnesses, your own spirits. You must be willing to love and worship me now completely, so that the power of all of your spirits might become joined with the power of my own, greater spirit, and eventually break completely free from YHWH's hypnotic spell. Then you will regain all of your own, divine power, like I did, and together we will defeat YHWH, and we will escape this vile, material universe, and ascend back to the Pleroma and to our bliss as gods, doing what we please, forever".

 

The world will actually believe this lie (or something similar to it), for it will be accompanied by the most amazing miracles (e.g. Revelation 13:13) performed by the power of Lucifer/Satan himself (2 Thessalonians 2:9), and because it will be accompanied by a strong delusion sent by God on the unrepentant world (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). But the world will worship Lucifer (and his human son the Antichrist) for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

that's about the wildest story I've seen yet.....    Did you think all that up or find it somewhere....

[other one]

Btw that seven headed description is not literal....      if you are very lucky you will never meet him....

[enoob57]

Ge 1:31-2:3

31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

NKJV

Satan had not fallen to this point... somewhere between here and the possessed serpent in chpt 3 the fall occurred...

[other one]

The question I would ask myself is, are Satan and the Angels really part of creation...    we know they were already here when the Creating of our world started.   So when God said it was all good, was he just speaking of what he had just created, or including all the things prior to creation....

 

Once again I have to wonder at what point did God decide for the Saints to judge the angels.   Though most of my friends tend to look past this, it is hugely important in the scheme of things.