Jesus returns twice in Matthew?

[WilliamL]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

... the Rev. 7 Great Multitude.

THE GREAT MULTITUDE.

`After these things I looked & behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all the nations, tribes, peoples & tongues, standing before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, & crying with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne & to the Lamb!”......

“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, & washed their robes & made them white in the blood of the Lamb....` (Rev. 7: 9, 10 & 14)

The Holy Spirit gives us the details of these people to show us who they are.

 

All the nations – tribes, peoples & tongues.

White Robes – righteousness through Christ. (saved)

Palm Branches – representing the `Feast of Tabernacles.` (God with us.)

 

`you shall celebrate the feast of Tabernacles.....& you shall take for yourselves...branches of palm trees...& you shall rejoice before the Lord..` (Lev. 23: 39 & 40)

 

This is fulfilled with the `Feast` of Tabernacles when the Tabernacle of God comes down (Rev. 21: 3) & the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light,..` (Rev. 21: 24)

It seems like you are saying that the Rev. 7 saints come after the Millennium, when the Rev. 21 New Jerusalem descends to earth??

[Marilyn C]

Hi WilliamL,

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

It seems like you are saying that the Rev. 7 saints come after the Millennium, when the Rev. 21 New Jerusalem descends to earth??

What God`s word says is that the Great Multitude come our of the great tribulation & are shown with `palm branches,` which is representative of the `feast of Tabernacles.` The fulfilment of that is in the New Heavens & new Earth when the Tabernacle of God comes down out of heaven from God. Tabernacle, means to dwell. Thus God is dwelling with His people in the New Jerusalem & with those on the earth - the nations of the saved walk in its light. Obviously these people will have to `wait` till that time for their `reward `- life on earth.

Marilyn.

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

16 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

What God`s word says is that the Great Multitude come our of the great tribulation & are shown with `palm branches,` which is representative of the `feast of Tabernacles.` The fulfilment of that is in the New Heavens & new Earth when the Tabernacle of God comes down out of heaven from God. Tabernacle, means to dwell. Thus God is dwelling with His people in the New Jerusalem & with those on the earth - the nations of the saved walk in its light. Obviously these people will have to `wait` till that time for their `reward `- life on earth.

Kudos to you, Marilyn, because you are bringing up and nailing down some issues that have rarely been addressed. Complicated issues. Let's sort them out, because I see you getting the essence right, but not all of the timing.

On 1/14/2016 at 5:07 PM, Marilyn C said:

THE GREAT MULTITUDE.

`After these things I looked & behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all the nations, tribes, peoples & tongues, standing before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, & crying with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne & to the Lamb!”......

“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, & washed their robes & made them white in the blood of the Lamb....` (Rev. 7: 9, 10 & 14)

The Holy Spirit gives us the details of these people to show us who they are.

All the nations – tribes, peoples & tongues.

White Robes – righteousness through Christ. (saved)

Palm Branches – representing the `Feast of Tabernacles.` (God with us.)

`you shall celebrate the feast of Tabernacles.....& you shall take for yourselves...branches of palm trees...& you shall rejoice before the Lord..` (Lev. 23: 39 & 40)

This is fulfilled with the `Feast` of Tabernacles when the Tabernacle of God comes down (Rev. 21: 3) & the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light,..` (Rev. 21: 24)

 

Here is the problem with this timing: you are placing the Rev. 7 saints in the 8th Millennium, which totally blows the sequence of the narration of Revelation; which, up unto chapter 21, is all about the end of the 6th Millennium and the beginning through the end of the 7th. You've skipped a whole step in this process.

From what I've read, most people on this board believe the Fall Feasts will be played out at the Second Coming of the Lord. The Spring Feasts were played out both during the Exodus and at His First Coming. The Feast of Tabernacles likewise will be played out both during the Rev. 7 era and at the Coming of the New Jerusalem in the 8th Millennium. You have skipped one step in the process.

 

THE BODY OF CHRIST.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, even as I overcame & sat down with My Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

We see here that these people will be `overcomers,` & `sit with Christ on His throne` (with His authority). Then we are shown these people sitting with Christ around His throne.

`Around the throne were 24 thrones, & on the thrones I saw 24 elders sitting, clothed in white robes; & they had crowns of gold on their heads.` (Rev. 4: 4)

 

 

24 Elders – (2 x 12) Highest Government.

On Thrones – Kingpriests.

Around Jesus` Throne – Body of Christ.

Clothed in white robes – Made holy through Christ`s blood.

With Golden Crowns – Victor`s,  overcomers.

 

They sing the new song –

“You...have redeemed us to God out of every tribe & tongue & people & nation, & have made us kings & priests to our God,..` (Rev. 5: 9)

 

There are more than 24 tribes, tongues etc, so the 24 elders are representative of the whole Body of Christ. They have come out of the nations, but are shown in great detail as kingpriests, with golden crowns around Christ`s throne. This is their promised inheritance, to rule & reign with Christ on His throne,(seat of power & authority) far above all.

 

These overcomers are at Christ`s investiture seeing Him receive all `power & riches & wisdom & strength & honour & glory & blessings.` (Rev. 5: 12) This amazing sight is also recorded in Daniel ch. 7. There we see Christ as the Ancient of days & thrones being set up. This is the heavenly court that will judge the world system.

 

`I watched till thrones were put in place, & the Ancient of days was seated;....The court was seated.....& they shall take away his (A/C) dominion, to consume & destroy it forever.` (Dan. 7: 9 & 10,  & 26)

 

The Body of Christ has been told that they will judge the world system.

 

`Do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system)? (1 Cor. 6: 2)

Once again you've correctly nailed down a lot of things, but also missed some things. Here are the key passages you've missed:

Rev. 12:1-2 ...a Woman...being with child ... cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Rev. 2:26 “And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— 27 "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to pieces:" even as I received of my Father.

This Manchild of Rev. 12 are the highest ministry of the coming Messianic Age, and correspond to Christ's Apostles of the Church Age. They are therefore accorded ruling authority, as you correctly state above. But others will also ascend to the Lord in the Rapture who are of servant-in-the-heavenly-Temple authority, the saints of Revelation 7. Not everyone of the Church who will ascend will have equal authority, for the Lord will reward each one according to his fruits.

Here is an excerpt from my article Job Openings in the Kingdom Age on my website that explains these things, and how they relate to the pattern established in earlier ages:

    Priesthood  All of Aaron's unblemished male descendants of age became priests. They were the only ones authorized to offer the sacraments of the Mosaic Covenant.
    In the Church Age, this role was established in Christ's Apostles, his spiritual offspring; and in their unblemished spiritual descendants.
    In the Kingdom Age, the priesthood office is allotted to the Manchild of Revelation 12.
    Aaron's descendants bore rule over all Israelites; the apostolic office has authority over all the Church, both Jew and Gentile; the Manchild is to "rule all nations."  Rev. 12:5; 2:26-27

Servants of the Priesthood  God gave "the Levites as a gift to Aaron and his sons...to do the service...in the Tabernacle..." Num. 8:15-19  Before entering this work, they "washed their clothes; then [high priest] Aaron presented them like a wave offering before the LORD." Num. 8:21  The Levites were accepted by God as Israel's "firstborn." Num. 8:16, 18  The job of the Levites was to serve in God's Tabernacle, but not to administer the sacraments or approach the holy things. Num. 18:2-3
    In the Church Age, the corresponding role fell to the office of the deacon. Acts 6:1-6; 1 Tim. 3:8-13  This office was established to serve the Apostles, by relieving them of many details of the Church's material affairs: the same service of the Levites for their priests. (Unlike the Levites, deacons can progress to a priesthood role.)
    In the Kingdom Age, the Rapture brings the "Church of the Firstborn" to "the heavenly Jerusalem," "to Jesus the Mediator [and High Priest] of the New Covenant;" there he "will shepherd them." Heb. 12:22-24; 8:1-2; Rev. 7:17  These firstborn "come out of the Great Tribulation and wash their robes," then "[wave] palm branches" before God. Rev. 7:14, 9 Their job/role is thenceforth to "serve [God and the Lamb] day and night in his temple." Rev. 7:15  In sum, these people are to be the servants of the High Priest of the heavenly tabernacle. Their work is to be "before the throne" (Rev. 7:9, 15), not on or from it: they will not have rulership authority, such as Christ and the Manchild have.  Rev. 2:26-27; 3:21; 12:5

[Marilyn C]

Hi WilliamL,

Great to talk with you on these interesting topics.

1. The Feast of Tabernacles.

    

Yes you are right that it is celebrated in the Millennium - `the nations ...shall go up from year to year ....to keep the feast of Tabernacles.` (Zech. 14: 16)

 

However this is not the final fulfilment. This is still a `holy convocation` (Lev. 23: 2), a preparation of looking forward to the final fulfilment. The great multitude still have to wait till the New heavens & New Earth for their reward – life on earth.

 

 

       2. The different Priesthoods.

 

I see you are attempting to categorise the different groups, which is great, however there needs some adjustment I believe.

 

The Aaronic Priesthood.

 

You said - `Aaron`s descendents bore rule over all Israelites;...`

This is not true as it was the kings who ruled over Israel while the Priests attended to the temple. The Aaronic Priesthood was temporary in relation to the law, till Christ came.

 

Christ`s Priesthood – KingPriest.

 

We are told of this order of Priesthood, kingpriest in the book of Hebrews. It is called the order of Melchizedek. Melchizedek is a type of Christ as King & a priest.   

 

`...Jesus, having become high priest for ever according to the order of Melchizedek. For this Melchizedek, king......priest.....` (Heb. 6: 20  & 7: 1)

 

Now the Lord Jesus Christ, the firstborn of many sons, has made them to be king priests with Him. He is the High priest & they are priests under Him. The type of priest is a royal, a king priest.

 

`...Jesus Christ the first-born from the dead,...has made us kings & priests to His God & Father..` (Rev. 1: 5 & 6)

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on My throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)

`..around the throne were 24 thrones, & on the thrones I saw 24 elders sitting...` (Rev. 4: 4)

`...and they sang a new song, “ You....have made us kings & priests to our God...` (Rev. 5: 10)

 

This clearly shows that the overcomers, the Body of Christ are the kingpriests with Christ on His throne. The 24 elders being representative of the whole group. This is the `high, on top calling` that Paul spoke of & for us to not let anyone rob us of. (Col. 2: 6 – 23)

 

`I press towards the goal for the prize of the upward (high, on top) call of God in Christ Jesus.` (Phil. 3: 14) 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi WilliamL,

 

Now to another of your points – the manchild.

 

In Revelation 12, Christ is unveiled to us as the Mighty Victor. We are shown His scriptural identity as the one foretold that would come & overthrow the enemy.

 

Christ`s Scriptural Identity.

 

`Now a great sign appeared in heaven:  a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, & on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labour & in pain to give birth.`(Rev. 12: 1 & 2)

 

 

1. Christ is the seed of a woman, & He bruises the serpent`s head. (Gen. 3: 15)

    

2. Christ would be born from the nation of Israel. (Gen. 37: 9) (sun, moon & 12 stars represent Abraham & Sarah & the 12 sons – Israel)

    

    

   3. Christ is the `child` promised. (Isa. 9: 6) (`unto us a child is born. Unto us a Son is given.`)

 

Thus God foretold that the `seed` of woman would crush the serpent. The deliverer would come as a seed, not a tree, meaning not fully grown & He would come from the woman & not from the man, (not Adam`s sinful blood line but the Holy Spirit`s implanted `blood.`) He would also come through God`s special nation of Israel

 

 

Satan`s Scriptural Identity.

 

Next we see read of Satan`s origins. He came from the heavens to the area of the earth.

He had aspired to be as God but was cast down & with him a third of the angelic hosts.

 

 `And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a fiery red dragon having 7 heads & ten horns, & seven diadems on his head. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven & threw them to the earth.` (Rev. 12: 3 & 4)

 

This description of Satan reveals him as one who masquerades as an angel of light & then shows his authority over the kingdoms of this world. Note the word `seven,` in Heb. means to be complete. He has complete control over the kingdoms of the world. 

 

 Satan said, `All these things (kingdoms) I will give you.......`(Matt. 4: 8 & 9)

 

Red – fire like – flame coloured,  fig. lightning. (2 Cor. 11: 14   Luke 10: 18)

Dragon –  a fabulous kind of serpent ,  to fascinate.  (2 Thess. 2: 9)

 

7 heads –  Complete authority.  (1 John 5: 19)

7 diadems –  Complete rulership. (Matt. 4: 8 & 9)

10 horns -  Lawlessness,  power.  (Eph. 2: 2.     2 Thess. 2: 8 & 9)

 

`the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.` (John 5: 19)

Next we are given a summary of the attempts of Satan to destroy -

 

 Jesus the Promised Child.  

 

Jesus is the promised Son, the Child that Israel would bring forth to be the ruler of Israel & the kingdoms of the world.

 

 `For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; & the government will be upon His shoulder.....upon the throne of David & over His kingdom,..... from that time forward, even forever.` (Isaiah 9; 6 & 7)

 

Satan, through King Herod tried to kill Jesus when He was born.  (Matt. 2: 16)

 

 `Then being with child, she cried out in labour & in pain to give birth...... And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.`  (Rev. 12: 2 & 3))

 

Jesus was born of David`s line, in the nation of Israel. He is their Messiah but they did not receive Him. After His crucifixion & resurrection, He ascended into heaven & is seated at the right hand of the Father on His throne ready to `rule the nations with a rod of iron.`(Ps. 2: 9     Rev. 2: 27)

 

 `She bore a male Child who was to rule the nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God & His throne.`(Rev. 12: 5)

 

 Israel, the Woman.

 

We now move in time from where Jesus was taken into heaven, to the time where He told Israel to `flee to the mountains.`   (Matt. 24: 15 – 21)

 

`Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there 1260 days.` (Rev. 12: 6)

 

The archangel Michael, Israel`s `great Prince who stands guard` over them, is now brought into the battle to protect the nation from Satan & his evil angels.  (Dan. 12: 1)

 

 

 `And war broke out in heaven: Michael & his angels fought with the dragon; & the dragon & his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.`(Rev. 12: 7 & 8)

 

 

 `So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil & Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast out to the earth,  & his angels were cast out with him.` (Rev. 12: 9)

 

Marilyn.

 

[WilliamL]

On 1/15/2016 at 4:42 PM, Marilyn C said:

 

1. The Feast of Tabernacles.

 

Yes you are right that it is celebrated in the Millennium - `the nations ...shall go up from year to year ....to keep the feast of Tabernacles.` (Zech. 14: 16)

 

However this is not the final fulfilment. This is still a `holy convocation` (Lev. 23: 2), a preparation of looking forward to the final fulfilment. The great multitude still have to wait till the New heavens & New Earth for their reward – life on earth.

Rev. 7:15 “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His naos/sanctuary; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them."

This great multitude is celebrating a continuing Feast of Tabernacles in the New Jerusalem in heaven (Heb. 12:22): they are the Raptured saints, the Bride of Christ. True, they will ultimately descend to earth when the New Jerusalem does also in the 8th Day. But this is speaking of the 7th Day, not the 8th.

On 1/15/2016 at 4:42 PM, Marilyn C said:

 2. The different Priesthoods.

 

I see you are attempting to categorise the different groups, which is great, however there needs some adjustment I believe.

 

The Aaronic Priesthood.

 

You said - `Aaron`s descendents bore rule over all Israelites;...`

This is not true as it was the kings who ruled over Israel while the Priests attended to the temple. The Aaronic Priesthood was temporary in relation to the law, till Christ came.

 

 

Inaccurate. Israel was originally designated to be "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." Ex. 19:6 But they fell as a nation, and the Aaronic priests were accorded sole rule by God.
Then hundreds of years later in the days of Samuel, the people demanded a king, having fallen further from God's plan. But that was never God's original plan.

 

On 1/15/2016 at 4:42 PM, Marilyn C said:

       2. The different Priesthoods.

 

Christ`s Priesthood – KingPriest.

 

`...Jesus Christ the first-born from the dead,...has made us kings & priests to His God & Father..` (Rev. 1: 5 & 6)

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on My throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)

`..around the throne were 24 thrones, & on the thrones I saw 24 elders sitting...` (Rev. 4: 4)

`...and they sang a new song, “ You....have made us kings & priests to our God...` (Rev. 5: 10)

 

This clearly shows that the overcomers, the Body of Christ are the kingpriests with Christ on His throne. The 24 elders being representative of the whole group. This is the `high, on top calling` that Paul spoke of & for us to not let anyone rob us of. (Col. 2: 6 – 23)

 

 

The overcomers are the Manchild of Rev. 12:5 caught up "to God and his throne." Possibly included in the 24 elders, although they may be from the elect who were raised soon after Christ. The great multitude saints "before the throne" are only servants, not rulers: a lower level of authority, due to a lower level of spiritual works while in the flesh.

 

On 1/15/2016 at 4:44 PM, Marilyn C said:

 Now to another of your points – the manchild.

In Revelation 12, Christ is unveiled to us as the Mighty Victor. ...

False. In Rev. 4:1, the angel tells John, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after these [things of the John's-era letters to the 7 Churches]."

Everything post-Rev. 4:1 is future from John's era, the angel says. NO FLASHBACKS, or you deny the Word, and add your own to replace it.

Rev. 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death."

Who is the "they" who overcame? The only antecedent for them is the manchild group caught up to the God and his throne. They, not the angels, overcome by the blood of the Lamb. They are the ones having lives to put on the line, not angels.

They are the ones begotten from the Woman/Church, not Woman/Israel. The Woman Church who has 12 stars of Apostolic authority upon her head, and is clothed with the light of the one "whose countenance is like the sun shining in its strength" (1:16), and who stands upon the roots of the lunar Jewish covenant, below and beneath her in authority, even as the Apostles are above.

[Marilyn C]

Hi WilliamL,

Thank you for the details of your view. As you can see we think quite differently on these matters. Thus I just pray that the Holy Spirit will lead us both into the truth of Christ & His purposes.

Blessings, Marilyn.

[WilliamL]

The early Church developed solely out of Hebrew/Israelite roots. But after only a short while, when there came to be more Gentile than Israelite believers, a new church began to develop, which progressively and deliberately began cutting itself off from its Hebrew roots; and it began replacing them with worldly gnostic roots. Knowledge progressively rejected wisdom, which wisdom is very often concealed within images/types/forms, not words and rational arguments.

Every plant derives its form from the plan encoded in its seed. That plan keeps repeating its form: generation after generation, the same form appears. Although each new plant is shaped by its own unique environment, the basic form is repeated.

But this gnostic church rejected the ancient wisdom of the Hebrew race, that which is encoded in the repeating forms of its history. Therefore, the pattern portrayed in the time of "testing" (Ex. 15:9, 20:20) of the Israelite assembly -- from their flight in haste, up unto 'every eye seeing' God descend in fire and clouds and the sound of a shofar upon the holy mount -- all of this wisdom-in-form was cut off from the knowledge-church.

This is why one of the top Rapture passages of the New Testament, Heb. 12:18-28, is so soundly ignored by those who follow in the ways of this alternate church. (In over a year of working this board, I have never seen any other than myself quote this passage in their teachings, unless in response to a post of mine. That is telling.)

This ancient Hebrew-root pattern of the descent of the Holy One from above, to call up his elect to the holy mountain, will be fulfilled again in the Church, because the true Church springs from the same ancient root. Those who reject or ignore this ancient wisdom-in-form, and follow after the rationalizations of "so-called knowledge," will have their lamps become dark in that Day. Because they have cut themselves off from this archetypal root of wisdom.

[WilliamL]

3 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

so William,  with the Hebrews and the gentiles practically if not actually all gone off in error , in hypocrisy, and in apostasy, culminating finally according to all Scripture  as in the days of Noah, when only 8 were saved,  what is the lowly reed to do , or the lost sheep where are they to turn ? ((if they even have any options))   After all, what can any sheep do for itself ? 

 

Get to know and to hear the Shepherd very, very well. And then do what he says as soon as he says it. Starting now, not sometime down the road, when things suddenly get dicey. Because

"that Day ... will come as a snare [i.e., will spring quickly] on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth." Luke 21:35

[Ezra]

On 13/01/2016 at 4:34 AM, Spock said:

Where is Revelation do you see the rapture mentioned?

You don't, and that in itself is a clue. Some try to squeeze the Rapture out of Revelation 14:14-20, but that is totally incorrect and misleading.  That section deals with wrath ("the great winepress of the wrath of God").