Guest shiloh357 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 1 minute ago, BobRyan said: llER Really? -- rats cats dogs bats??? I already stated that we are not eating those things. My point is that so far you have dodged the real issue here. God has not made what we eat a prerequisite for salvation. What you eat or don't eat is not a determining factor as to who will enter the Kingdom of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2017 Just now, enoob57 said: Bob let me encourage you to step back and analyze the whole of Scripture... when God gave us His Law, His Word we had already fallen into sin, True enough. In a sinful world eating diseased meat and rats - certainly a health risk... a "bad thing". Of course as you imply - in a Genesis 1 pre-fall sinless world we would be eating fruits and nuts and the animals would all be vegetarian so no need to tell us not to eat "diseased meat or rats". Just now, enoob57 said: and God has cursed the earth because of that sin... also our bodies are judged 'from dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return'... Now you seem to be trying to reverse the physical realties that these bodies are our new bodies I find your logic "illusive" at that point As you can see in my statement above - I make the exact opposite point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,309 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,512 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted June 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, BobRyan said: True enough. In a sinful world eating diseased meat and rats - certainly a health risk... a "bad thing". Of course as you imply - in a Genesis 1 pre-fall sinless world we would be eating fruits and nuts and the animals would all be vegetarian so no need to tell us not to eat "diseased meat or rats". I find your logic "illusive" at that point As you can see in my statement above - I make the exact opposite point. Do you not know the whole of this creation ceases and all forms of it existence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2017 12 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: I already stated that we are not eating those things. Indeed - the "easy part" is for all of us to admit that we are not eating diseased meat, rats, cats, dogs, bats -- the very things God tells us not to eat in Lev 11. Now then let's finally get to the REAL debate point. After having crossed the bridge that I nickname "glaringly obvious". The real debate is that God is "allowed" to be right on "Some things" in Lev 11 - but not ALL. The REAL debate is over the idea that "YES" it is STILL bad to eat diseased meat, rats, cats, dogs, bats even under the Gospel - but we then add to this our "favorites" our "preferences - and say that under the Gospel God is not "allowed" to restrict what is restricted in scripture in Lev 11 - IF that gets into one of our preferences. Thus we would allow certain restrictions from our doctor - but NOT from the Word of God. There is the "actual debate". ========================= Here is instruction that Christians should not be drug abusers, should not eat diseased meat, should not do themselves harm. 1Cor 6: 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 1 Cor 3: 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. Isaiah 66 - the end of the world And His indignation to His enemies. 15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by His sword The Lord will judge all flesh; And the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord. Quote My point is that so far you have dodged the real issue here. God has not made what we eat a prerequisite for salvation. What you eat or don't eat is not a determining factor as to who will enter the Kingdom of God. Isaiah 66 - the end of the world And His indignation to His enemies. 15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by His sword The Lord will judge all flesh; And the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord. Not at all clear that the Isaiah 66 statement says "consumed but still saved beause this is not a matter of salvation for them". For those who know God's Word -- God's Word matters. God has made obedience to His Word - His Command a sign of the new Birth "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 NEW Covenant. Your argument is that either Jeremiah did not know about Leviticus 11 being in the LAW of God or that God does not mean "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 or that God has no interest in the body of a Christian - EVEN though "Sin against the body" is flatly condemned in the NT and eating rats condemned in both. Not because they are "spiritual rats" and not because the diseased meat is "spiritual diseased meat" but rather because destroying our bodies in rebellion against God's Word. You will argue that not all people know God's Word - and many of those who do have not studied the subject yet - to know right from wrong. I would agree with that and that applies to a great many topics not just this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, enoob57 said: Do you not know the whole of this creation ceases and all forms of it existence? You have free will of course. I on the other hand - live in this creation, have a physical body - and God says not to "sin against the body" - not to eat diseased meat etc. That is the "word of God" in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,309 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,512 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted June 7, 2017 yes we are to strive here to be the sons of The Most High now but our living is not to be of here Col 3.... as it cannot be done by works or manipulations of the things God is not keeping! How can we take the things that are not being kept and make eternal substance from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,227 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,947 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2017 682 posts to answer a simple question.. What's wrong with the world........... just analyze this thread and start to get an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,143 Content Per Day: 4.62 Reputation: 27,833 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2017 Quote The issue here is theological. Where are Christians obligated to refrain from eating non-diseased things like pork, catfish, shellfish, etc.? Blessings Shiloh Exactly....Where are Christians obligated to adhere to the 613 commandments of Mosaic Law ? Quote The commands that God gave them are instructive but not necessarily imperative for us. They are informative but not normative. They are descriptive for ancient Israel, but not prescriptive for Christians. If we want to find out which laws still apply to Christians today, we must rely on the New Testament, and the New Testament tells us that one commandment — the Sabbath — is no longer in force. We cannot preach the Ten Commandments for Christians today, because there is an important exception right in the middle of the Ten, and it is confusing to say Ten when only Nine are meant. Moreover, Christians have a better standard of behavior in the New Testament — a bigger body of literature with better balance. We have the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. We should point people to Christ, not to Moses, for instruction on how to live like a Christian. https://www.gci.org/bible/torah/exodus2a God Bless,Kwik 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 958 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,659 Content Per Day: 5.04 Reputation: 9,086 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) 683 or 684 whichever this one is. I simply have a comment on blood in meat. I have gone through a stage where I followed the koshering process for cleansing meats. I did not have the blessing from a rabbi, but simply followed the process. Without bothering with details, I simply state the meats had what I will call a clean and fresh taste. The processing times are different for poultry as compared to red meats. And though most meats supposedly can be processed like being koshered, I found that not to be true of ground turkey. Ha, that stuff just disappeared leaving a few cells of something behind. Within my own family heritage is the raising of turkeys, about 4000 at any one time, plus chickens, much of which had rabbinic blessing upon the processing. I was very very young, but I never ever can forget the first time I was out at what was then the place and way of processing chicken, bleeding them etc. WOW is all my mind's memory can say even today. I guess it does give me an idea of what being a priest preparing the holy sacrifices must have been like. Geesh what a job keeping a constant supply of proper sacrifice for burnt offering. Talk about blood to their bridles, wow is all I can say even today. Edited June 7, 2017 by Neighbor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2017 1 hour ago, enoob57 said: yes we are to strive here to be the sons of The Most High now but our living is not to be of here Col 3.... as it cannot be done by works or manipulations of the things God is not keeping! How can we take the things that are not being kept and make eternal substance from? What does that mean? Did God "make a mistake" in telling us not to eat diseased meat in Lev 11? Yes? no? healthcare professionals have a hard time claiming that God made a mistake at that point in His text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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