Where is the 3rd Heaven?

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Thank you for your input, God promish the land to Abraham, but Abraham did not get to build a house in that Land, he was a sojourner living in tents, and he also promish Him that Lot is not going to be a co-heir with him in this Land.

And you know what happen to Lot who build a house in that land that time.

Abraham had to buy land, just a cave from someone else, just to burry his wife. And perhaps to have a burial place for him self. He knew that he will die in this Land as a sojourner living in tents from place to place.

Later we see that no one bought any real estate from anyone living there. 

The Lord divided the Land to discentans of Jacob, and he told them the land is mine and I give it to you and your family to live in it and you can not treat your portion like is your own real estate and you can do anything you want with that.

And we see that Essau who was a discendant of Jacob was excluded from that promise. Only Jacob and his children of all his wife's and the children of all the maids were included.

A reverse situation in reference to Abraham, who His all other children were excluded.

Why this reverse of sircumstanses, that will be interesting if I can relate too. 

And I remember what Moses said;

God sent me to lead you out of this bondage and in to a new Land he has promish to Abraham and Isaak and Jacob, but later on he will sent someone else to lead you to a another place, ( that time forget about me and follow him), who God has sent to lead you to your heavenly inheritance. him you should follow.

And Jesus told us that Abraham had seen this day also, the day of Jesus Christ, who will lead the people in to heavenly inheritance.

"Abraham has seen my day and rejoys", yes Abraham had seen and had been promise both promise lands, the earthly with Moses, and the heavenly with Jesus Christ.

I think what is interesting is....Esau and lot were given  land by God also before The children of Israel.

ESAU......

De 2:4  And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:
De 2:5  Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.
De 2:12  The Horims also dwelt in Seir beforetime; but the children of Esau succeeded them, when they had destroyed them from before them, and dwelt in their stead; as Israel did unto the land of his possession, which the LORD gave unto them.
De 2:22  As he did to the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, when he destroyed the Horims from before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead even unto this day:
Jos 24:4  And I gave unto Isaac Jacob and Esau: and I gave unto Esau mount Seir, to possess it; but Jacob and his children went down into Egypt.

LOT,,,,,,

De 2:19  And when thou comest nigh over against the children of Ammon, distress them not, nor meddle with them: for I will not give thee of the land of the children of Ammon any possession; because I have given it unto the children of Lot for a possession.
 

They lost their inheritance to be sure, but Israel maintained a distinct covenant which I believe sustained them in the promises. The covenant of circumcision. God really did increase Grace in all these things with Israel. As rebellion and sin increased, so too did his grace. For God is and always was faithful to keep his promises made to Abraham in the second covenant.

It keeps them today, and that is why the circumcision continued among the jews. It was vital to them.

20  And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21  And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
 

 

Edited February 13, 2016 by Joline
additional comments

[Your closest friendnt]

3 minutes ago, Joline said:

I think what is interesting is....Esau and lot were given  land by God also before The children of Israel.

ESAU......

De 2:4  And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:
De 2:5  Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.
De 2:12  The Horims also dwelt in Seir beforetime; but the children of Esau succeeded them, when they had destroyed them from before them, and dwelt in their stead; as Israel did unto the land of his possession, which the LORD gave unto them.
De 2:22  As he did to the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, when he destroyed the Horims from before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead even unto this day:
Jos 24:4  And I gave unto Isaac Jacob and Esau: and I gave unto Esau mount Seir, to possess it; but Jacob and his children went down into Egypt.

LOT,,,,,,

De 2:19  And when thou comest nigh over against the children of Ammon, distress them not, nor meddle with them: for I will not give thee of the land of the children of Ammon any possession; because I have given it unto the children of Lot for a possession.
 

They lost their inheritance to be sure, but Israel maintained a distinct covenant which I believe sustained them in the promises. The covenant of circumcision. God really did increase Grace in all these things with Israel. As rebellion and sin increased, so too did his grace. For God is and always was faithful to keep his promises made to Abraham in the second covenant.

 

 

Thank you, that was an eye opener. 

and hope that you continiun in your good work.

I have spent some time to study paralell shadow pictures.

Hope that we Cross our paths again.

[FresnoJoe]

On 1/30/2016 at 6:52 PM, OldSchool2 said:

How "narrow minded" is the Nicene Creed?

"... We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified...."

Other than the Apostles' Creed, it's likely "the most universally accepted and recognized statements of the Christian faith".

Even

And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:17-18

If Holy Script

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

Clearly States Who Our God Is

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3:16-17

There Are Some Who

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. John 11:25-27

Will Not Believe

I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 1 John 2:21-23

Love, Your Brother Joe

[enoob57]

It's right next to the second one  

[other one]

7 hours ago, enoob57 said:

It's right next to the second one  

and we refer to it as being up so it must be on top of the second heaven.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

No I see the progression of  same covenant made with Abraham and his seed to possess the promise land of Israel. As explained Abraham is a joint heir to that land and for Abraham personally that will be fullfilled when he is resurrected as with other fathers Israel and Moses.

Concerning the illustration of Hagar and Sarah

Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 

[The Law covenant- OT]

But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and she is our mother.

[Christ covenant - NT]

 

Paul teaches 2 covenants.

The sons of Hagar are the children given to Abraham by the natural means. This was the earthly worldly covenant made at Sinai

The second of Sarai are the children given to Abraham by promise. These are the children born again of God's spirit. given birth by supernatural means.

We all must be born again of the spirit, as children of promise.

Therefore how do you see the concept of progression? They are two distinct covenants.

Edited February 14, 2016 by Joline

[Guest]

23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, to all.

It is often difficult to "see the forest for the trees"; that is, it's hard to see the governing principle - the "law" - behind all the instances. We can induce much, but when "a tree doesn't seem to fit in," we must adjust our "view of the forest." That is, when the induced "law" encounters "outliers" that don't seem to fit into the set of instances governed by that principle, we must broaden our principle to include the outliers, as well. It seems to be an ever-changing "governing principle," and we seem to NEVER arrive at a true law by "pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps."

However, God was gracious to us by giving us several universal governing principles that apply to ALL instances in our lives and those of others, both in the present, in the past, and in the future, too. These principles, too, are often hard for us to perceive, but once we get them down, we will continue to surprise ourselves with how often they may be applied to instances we had never considered before to be so governed.

One of the lesser, but eternal truths is that "Yeshua` (Jesus) was and STILL IS a Jew!" That means that His mother, Miryam (Mary), was also a Jewess!

Furthermore, we learn that "Yeshua` was and STILL IS a Son of David," both genetically through Miryam and in the kingly lineage through adoption to His earthly father, Yosef (Joseph).

Therefore, it should come as no surprise that the Magi came from the east looking for He who was "born King of the Jews."

Now, let's just carry the lineage back: He was and still is the Heir to the Throne of David, He was and still is the Son of David, He was and still is the Son of Y'hudah (Judah, which makes Him a "Jew"), He was and still is the Son of Isra'el (Israel, which makes him an "Israelite," one of "the children of Israel"), He was and still is a Son of Yits'chaq (Isaac), and He was and still is a Son of Avraham (Abraham). (Of course, we're told as much through two lineages recorded in Matthew 1 and Luke 3.)

Now, let's change tracks just a little: Were these ancestors in the Messiah, the Christ? No, but did they expect a Resurrection of their bodies? YES! Avraham fully expected his son, Yits'chaq to be raised from the dead if he plunged that knife into his son's throat, cutting the jugular vein! Iyov (Job, whom some feel was a contemporary of Avraham) said,

Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV

So, were they in the Messiah? NO! Ha! Ha! The Messiah was IN THEM! So, shall they be in the Resurrection? YOU CAN BET ON IT! IT'S A SURE THING! (And, it's NOT gambling if it's a sure thing!)

Hmmmm interesting post.

Mt 22:32  I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mr 12:26  And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Mr 12:27  He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

"I will give all the land you see to you and your offspring forever" (Gen. 13:15).

The whole land of Canaan where you are now an alien, I will give to you and your descendants after you: and I will be their God" (Gen. 17:8).

May God give you and your descendants the blessing given to Abraham so that you may take possession of the land where you now live as an alien, the land God gave to Abraham" (Gen. 28:4).

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. (Heb 11:8)

Abraham is also included in the promise of possessing the land. You can not ignore nor twist this...this is plan truth of the matter. Confirmed in the OT and NT Abraham inherits the land.

The only reason why Abraham could not possess it in his life time was due to God's plan of passing judgememt and evicting the canaanites, and of cause growing in the womb of Egypt a nation called Israel in order to conduct the judgement and eviction. 

Thats why two thousand years later, when the New Testament was written, Stephen, shortly before he was martyred, explained that "God gave Abraham no inheritance here, not even a foot of ground. But God promised him that he and his descendants after him would possess the land" (Acts 7:5).

Abraham is still an inheritor of the land which he will occupy when he is resurrected....in other words what God promised to Abraham all the way back in Genesis finds it's fullment when Christ returns  

It is a "heavenly" land since it is divinely ordained by the God of Heaven and will be blessed with the presence of the Messiah himself.

It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. Roms 4:13

Not ONLY is Abraham to inherit the land of Israel but the entire world with the messiah....global domination. Through Abraham being righteous.

Now we look at what Paul is trying to illustrate with Sarah and Hagar...this has NOTHING to do with trying to disprove that Abraham does not inherit the land of Israel but has everything to do with the trying to be justified through the law [OT - Law] and justified through righteousness [NT - righteousness], ratified by Jesus Christ.

The progression of all of this to the NT is throwing away the yoke of the law and circumcising your heart with the law. 

Because that is what the lesson is with Galatians of what Paul is teaching

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (Gal 5:1)

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (Gal 5 : 4)

So what must you do to be justified in righteousness like Abraham was?

Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."

Again what is this all about?

 

Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? (Gal 4:21)

 

You have confused this in some weird way to show Abraham does not inherit the land of Israel? When that's not even the case to begin with on what Paul is teaching, which is about the law and trying to be justified by the law and not through righteousness and grace.

 

Shalom, inChrist.

In these matters, I agree with you 100%! Couldn't have said it better!

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, enoob57 said:

It's right next to the second one  

Shalom, enoob57.

It's right next to the second one SEQUENTIALLY! It follows AFTER the second one! It's only "right next to the second one" on a TIME LINE!

[*Zion*]

14 hours ago, enoob57 said:

It's right next to the second one  

You don't say, sir!