Who said , Grace covers all of the law of Moses ?

[firestormx]

On 1/3/2016 at 10:49 PM, SINNERSAVED said:

the Law of Moses which is the first five books , called the Torah, so when was the Torah put away and Grace of Yashua takes over, ?

do we take one covenant and remove it and completely bring in another, and it wipes all from the first completely out ?

I think this is a Big misunderstanding , and many are reading in too hard to make Grace more then it is ,

for do we even know , how many of the different Laws is talked about in acts alone, one is the ,

law of sin and death , and I believe I am saved by grace for my salvation, of sins and death , but all the rest still stands,

how can anyone say we are covered by Grace , and yet remove the law, ?

I know you will say we cannot live under the law for the punishments are with that, that is not what I am talking about , I am talking everything to be of the law of moses ,

and grace, to cover what it needs to cover, I think many are using it to justify every thing, what do you say ?

Sinnersaved,

Hello, and God bless you

This will most likely be a long post.

 I don't post much anymore, but still read and frequent the forums quite often. I have been seeing you post a lot on similar issues such as this one and had it pressed upon me to try to post my understanding of this that we might both be drawn closer to Jesus. I think the problem with this post is the same problem we have in most churches and with most Christians. A lack of understanding of the crucifixion and the new testament and a lack of ability to explain it. I am not expert by any means in explaining this. But I will try to address your statement as I understand it. I hope we will both be drawn closer to God and Jesus as a result.

 

 We should start this post with salvation. Believe it or not understanding salvation is very important to understanding this issue. Salvation = A right standing with God. That is the simplest meaning I know to give of salvation. We have a right standing with God because of Jesus Christ. We keep a right standing with God because of Jesus Christ. Period. That's the end of it. We as christians have and keep a right standing with God because of Jesus. Nothing I say or do on my own will ever place me in a right standing with God. Likewise, nothing I ever say or do will maintain or keep me in a right standing with God. If I do something to achieve or maintain a right standing with God, then I can take credit for part of it. My works or actions can never achieve or maintain a right standing with God. A right standing with God is only achieved and maintained by faith through grace in Jesus Christ. 

 But what about our works you may ask. Well that is actually really simple to. When Jesus and Jesus alone puts us in and keeps us in a right standing with God, then Jesus is placing in a position of being righteous or holy in him. See being Holy = being set apart by God for God. It really is that simple. That is also why we can't achieve being Holy apart from God. God and God alone has to place us in that position of Holiness. That is accomplished only in Jesus. What does this have to do with works? Simple, When we are placed in and maintained in a right standing with God by Jesus Christ, then We are made Holy or righteous by him. We are set apart by God for God. When that happens in someone's life, their will always be evidence of it. There words and actions should start changing and conforming over time to be more and more like Jesus. To use a biblical analogy. Jesus is the gardener, we are the tree. If we have been planted by Jesus in God's garden then we will produce the fruit that a tree in God's garden should produce. When we start producing fruit, what kind of fruit we produce or anything else about the fruit we produce, doesn't change that it was the gardener that planted us in God's garden and keeps us there. Likewise, It is Jesus who places us in and keeps us in a right standing with God. Once we are in that right standing with God there should be evidence in our words and actions and life. But no matter what change or evidence is produced in our lives of being in a right standing with God, it will never change the fact that it is Jesus who places us in and keeps us in a right standing with God. See, that is the grace you keep hearing about. Jesus places us in a right standing with God and keeps or maintains us in a right standing with God even though we don't deserve it and never will. 

 Now that all that is said I can address the Law of Moses, the Crucifixion and the old and new testaments. Now I am not trying to do anything other than a simple break down of this, nothing fancy. In simple terms, most of the Law of Moses can be broken down into 3 parts. The sacrificial, the ceremonial and the moral law. I will try to simplify each one to address your post one by one to show that most Christians are not just hiding behind grace or picking and choosing what to follow.

 The sacrificial law was everything in the law of Moses about sacrificing to God. Why did we need to sacrifice animals to God? Simply put, because the bible says without the shedding of blood there can be no remission or forgiveness of sin. So the purpose of animal sacrifice was so there could be forgiveness of our sin. In the old testament they had to sacrifice animals over and over again to achieve this. In the new testament the sacrifice of Jesus of the cross achieved the same thing forever. See, Jesus shed blood was enough to fulfill God's never changing requirement for shed blood for the forgiveness of sin, forever. So all the stuff in the old testament Law of Moses about sacrificing was not destroyed or done away with. It is fulfilled in Jesus.

 The ceremonial law is everything in the old testament and law of Moses about being holy and righteous. It covers everything in the old testament and law of Moses about how the priests and people had to prepare to be in God's presence, to ritual baths, not eating pork, not wearing mixed fabric and on and on. See, the simple and never changing requirement of God that was behind all these principles was be Holy for your God in heaven is Holy. In the new testament ( as I have covered above ) we are made holy and put in a right standing with God by Jesus. Nothing we do or say makes us holy. Only Jesus can do that. Remember what Jesus told Peter, what Jesus makes clean is completely and totally clean. So once again, it is not that all the things above in the old testament law of Moses have been destroyed or done away with. Rather it was fulfilled with a better and permanent solution. Jesus Christ. 

 The final of the 3 is the moral law. This is your 10 commandments, homosexuality and things like that. See they taught people in the old testament law of Moses that once you physically committed the sin of like adultery for example then you received the punishment as outlined in the law. But only after you physically committed the sin. See, everything in all 3 main aspects of the Law had this one thing in common, it was about what you did or didn't do. Your works. Whether YOU kept the law. What YOU had or had not done. But when Jesus come he flipped this on them. He taught, that if you looked at someone in lust, just looked. then you had already committed adultery with them. See, this was always God's standard. The heart and the motive is always where God has looked. Want proof? Go look in the the story of Noah and the flood. In that story you will read where God says when he looked at man that he had created that " the thoughts and intents of his HEART were evil continually " . It has always been the standard or requirement of God that he looks at the heart and/or our motive. When he sent the Prophet to Jessie's house to find a king for Israel , what did God tell the Prophet when he looked upon Jessie's sons?  " you look upon the physical but I look inwards at the heart of man'.

 See, Jesus taught us to look beyond just do's and don't and to seek the heart of the matter. It is not about Just, don't commit adultery. But a condition of lust in the heart that only God can deal with. And That is what most here have been trying to say. It is God's grace upon us, whom doesn't deserve it, to be changed and conformed to his image, first inside and then overflowing unto the outside for the whole world to see. We have been placed in a right standing with God , we are being kept in a right standing with God because of Jesus Christ. How is that not Grace? 

 

Firestormx

Joseph

[SINNERSAVED]

5 hours ago, Ezra said:

No one said (or says) "grace covers all of the Law of Moses". Here's what the Bible says (Jn 1:14): For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

What does this mean?  That God gave the Old Covenant to Moses, but Christ replaced it with the grace and truth of the New Covenant.  Does this mean that nothing in the Torah is now valid?  Not at all. The Ten Commandments have been revealed now as the two greatest commandments, which can be distilled into the Law of Christ (which is the Law of Love). So what is now obsolete?  See the epistle to the Hebrews (and other NT Scriptures). Some portions of the laws in the Torah are indeed obsolete, but some are not.  We need to discern what is what in light of the New Testament.

Ezra, I want to thank you for that understanding,  and response to this, that was a great answer and I am looking forward to what is covered by grace , and what is still law, so if you could do me a favor , I would really appreciate if you would start another topic, or add to this one, which ever works, for I think once you have divided what is still valid as law by moses and what was covered by grace, it will get a lot of feed back , and responses , so we can continue here or move to a new one, it don't matter to me, for this is where I was trying to prove my point  or view, for I felt this was not being understood by many , and if I am wrong at least we can try to work this out and study,

thank you brother, and I am awaiting this , I need you to show us what you think this is going to look like,

[Spock]

Joseph,

thank you for this beautifully worded heart felt post. Much appreciated.

i am not Sinnersaved but I think I understand where he is coming from with his threads.

jesus said, "If you love me, you will OBEY my commands." Jesus knows we have free will, and he is challenging us to use our free will to follow God's heart and commands. Of course he even qualifies it by saying, "if you love me...."

in other words, don't just say you love me, SHOW me that you love me.  And of course, the whole book of James is about challenging us to prove our faith through our WORKS!

I think this is what Sinnersaved is trying to accomplish here. He is encouraging people to PROVE their love to God by obeying his commands.  

that takes us to his commands- the 10 commandments and the Mosaic Law in particular. Sinner believes both (to a lesser degree, the mosaic law) are in effect and he is challenging believers to show God the money, and oh, don't forget, there are Ten Commandments, not just nine. 

If I may degress a bit and be more personal, I am not at a place where I feel confident or sure enough to encourage people to don't worry about the 4th commandment, God doesn't care about any particular day, and so on.  Others are at that place, fine. This is why we are here to discuss our reasons why or why not - iron sharpening iron.  At least that is why I am here. Honestly, I have no desire to win anyone over to my way of thinking on issues, but rather just to share what I believe is truth, as his ambassador,  in hopes that this pleases God. 

Anyhow, I love and appreciate both you and Sinnersaved and I'm very proud to have you both as brothers in Christ. 

He is Alive,

spock

[SINNERSAVED]

27 minutes ago, Spock said:

Joseph,

thank you for this beautifully worded heart felt post. Much appreciated.

i am not Sinnersaved but I think I understand where he is coming from with his threads.

jesus said, "If you love me, you will OBEY my commands." Jesus knows we have free will, and he is challenging us to use our free will to follow God's heart and commands. Of course he even qualifies it by saying, "if you love me...."

in other words, don't just say you love me, SHOW me that you love me.  And of course, the whole book of James is about challenging us to prove our faith through our WORKS!

I think this is what Sinnersaved is trying to accomplish here. He is encouraging people to PROVE their love to God by obeying his commands.  

that takes us to his commands- the 10 commandments and the Mosaic Law in particular. Sinner believes both (to a lesser degree, the mosaic law) are in effect and he is challenging believers to show God the money, and oh, don't forget, there are Ten Commandments, not just nine. 

If I may degress a bit and be more personal, I am not at a place where I feel confident or sure enough to encourage people to don't worry about the 4th commandment, God doesn't care about any particular day, and so on.  Others are at that place, fine. This is why we are here to discuss our reasons why or why not - iron sharpening iron.  At least that is why I am here. Honestly, I have no desire to win anyone over to my way of thinking on issues, but rather just to share what I believe is truth, as his ambassador,  in hopes that this pleases God. 

Anyhow, I love and appreciate both you and Sinnersaved and I'm very proud to have you both as brothers in Christ. 

He is Alive,

spock

thank you spock,  and firestormx , for your  responses and devotion , to this thread, I want to tell you firestorm x, that I am with you on this , and I agree with what you sare saying, and spock  you are correct in what my motives and my challenges to all that read this and want to taste the goodness of the lord, we are all placed here to be responsible and accountable for what we say and what we do , Yes we are all covered by grace ,as we have surrendered to the God and His son, that is able to save,

 but what we don't seem to get , is the effort of our selves , to put forth the plow and not look back, I believe we need to learn that if we are focused on Jesus and His finished work , then we need to get to work, we need to help prep the wheat and get it set , and put the hands to the plow , we need to drive through , and meet and exceed the holiness and obedience , more then the Pharisees, for we are as it is mentioned unless we exceed those that were Pharisees, then we have not attained our goal,

we need to set goals, in the holiness and righteousness of work by faith , we need to study hard , and meditate on the word of God , and learn of the scriptures,

for by reading the word the spirit cleanses us , and purifies us , and by abiding in Christ, we are sacrificed with Him, and so we need to act like Christ followers and not just talk a talk, we need to walk the walk , in the spirit , not to fulfill the flesh and the worldly sinful desires that we have , and deal with everyday , we need to crucify the flesh daily , by praying and staying in the word, for then and only then we have renewed our minds and bodies to reflect and share the light that is with in us , to a dying and evil dark world,

 like spock , said, its time to be doing and stop hanging around to hear, for the harvest is plentiful but the labors are few  we need to be following God first, and in all we do , have God or Christ Jesus in our minds and first on our foreheads , and when we start acting like believers other will take noticed and see it coming from us,  so I am not saying we are not saved by grace,  and we work for our way to heaven , we need to have faith to produce fruit, we have been saved , and we need to share the good news with others, and having the fruits of the spirit , and many are spiritually famine, and not any good to another, so we need to be re fired up , for the world is falling away and the evil one is barreling down ,and we may not have the chance to have this freedom much longer, so we need to take full advantage and be about Gods business and His will first , and He will provide and make things happen,

we are the hands and feet , how else would we reach people if we do not commit to what we have confessed , let us go out there , and believe....

[SINNERSAVED]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 1:10 PM, Ezra said:

No one said (or says) "grace covers all of the Law of Moses". Here's what the Bible says (Jn 1:14): For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

What does this mean?  That God gave the Old Covenant to Moses, but Christ replaced it with the grace and truth of the New Covenant.  Does this mean that nothing in the Torah is now valid?  Not at all. The Ten Commandments have been revealed now as the two greatest commandments, which can be distilled into the Law of Christ (which is the Law of Love). So what is now obsolete?  See the epistle to the Hebrews (and other NT Scriptures).

Ezra tell us of what laws if any are not done away with , for you mentioned it , and now I need to know what you come up with , but yet you say I am preaching false teachings for holding the dietary law, so tell me what you believe is still valid in the moses law now , even though we are covered by grace, this should be good, thank you brother

Ezra said

Some portions of the laws in the Torah are indeed obsolete, but some are not.  We need to discern what is what in light of the New Testament.

[MorningGlory]

On 1/4/2016 at 0:43 AM, other one said:

No I would tell you that the ten commandments are not in effect because Jesus replaced them with two.    And if you follow the two you will not break any of the ten, but the ten won't get you to heaven.    None of the old covenant pertained to eternity.  Only this physical life.

But if the ten were still in effect, then i would say that we are doomed for Jesus plead guilty to working on the Sabbath.

 

When you say that they are avoided by grace, that is misleading....  unless you have allowed Jesus to come into your life and let him be your Lord, and follow the commandments that He Jesus gave us, I say you do not have grace.

But if you do follow Jesus's commandments you will not have any trouble with the ten commandments....    if you lead of life of holiness, you are keeping the sabbath holy, and every other day.

What day did Jesus take off????     Even at age 14 he was in the synagogue doing the work of his Father.

 

What you guys are doing going back to the old law  is dangerous to believers.

I SO agree, O.O.  If we were still under the old laws, then Jesus birth, death and Resurrection would never have happened. 

[MorningGlory]

Romans 3:20-24 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it — the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

[rjp34652]

On January 3, 2016 at 10:49 PM, SINNERSAVED said:

the Law of Moses which is the first five books , called the Torah, so when was the Torah put away and Grace of Yashua takes over, ?

do we take one covenant and remove it and completely bring in another, and it wipes all from the first completely out ?

I think this is a Big misunderstanding , and many are reading in too hard to make Grace more then it is ,

for do we even know , how many of the different Laws is talked about in acts alone, one is the ,

law of sin and death , and I believe I am saved by grace for my salvation, of sins and death , but all the rest still stands,

how can anyone say we are covered by Grace , and yet remove the law, ?

I know you will say we cannot live under the law for the punishments are with that, that is not what I am talking about , I am talking everything to be of the law of moses ,

and grace, to cover what it needs to cover, I think many are using it to justify every thing, what do you say ?

 Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to remove it.   Messiah Yeshuah died upon the cross that righteousness might be fulfilled, not that it might be replaced by laciviousness.   The argument that Christians do not live under the law is demonic and unBiblical for we are certainly STILL bound by its precepts and ordinances.   

Shall the reader now take up a weapon and rob a bank to put food on his table or should he earn his money by honest labor?  The answer ought to be obvious to anyone except those who wish to justify their pet sins.  Salvation by grace enables the Torah in our lives.   It does not provide a license to sin.

Sin and its horrible meaning both in law and in our flesh is not taught in churches today.   The false gospel of licentious grace is taught or implied instead.  As a result the church today is no different from any other secular institution.  Pulpit messages are tainted with humanism and secularism and lightly sprinkled with religious buzz words for false legitimacy in the ears of the listeners.  I have sat through too many of this type of propaganda from one end of America to the other.  The lies of the devil are everywhere and the church is a religion in name only.

"For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" - 1 Peter 4:17

What is this passage saying to us?  It is based solidly upon obedience and judgment.  When obedience discipline and duty to Christ are tossed aside (and private sins and fetishes secretly or openly enjoyed instead) there is no longer a joy in God or His ordinances.   There is only disobedience and impending doom.

Thus has the spirit been demonstrating to the church in America, "You came to me for help with your sins, but you have repeatedly ignored my wise counsel and commands.  Therefore our business is concluded."

The spirit has departed from the organized church.  Only fools and their self-justified wickedness remain.   Judgment has already arrived upon our shores and those who once covered their evil in religious clothing will wail and lament.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Spock]

This topic seems to get muddled if you ask me. We seem to debate Mosaic Law vs. New Covenant.

Personally, I think this is not the issue. The bible did say god gave these laws to the Israelites. I know some believe all believers are grafted into Israel, and some do not feel this should Be interpreted as such. I'm in the latter camp, but I respect those who see it differently.  Those who strongly believe god does not want them to eat porky, then don't. Just don't bully others into thinking they have to agree with you on this one.  If you are right, then the pig eaters will hear about it at our judgment day, so move on. So, we may just have to agree to disagree and move on. 

Then, The issue should be the 10 commandments vs. the new covenant.  I think most Christians would agree that at least 9 commandments are still in effect. So, if we are honoring these 9/10 commandments, I think we are on the straight and narrow course. Even the one dude asked Jesus what must I do to inherit eternal life and didn't Jesus tell him to keep the commandments (10 commandments)?  

Now, for those who think even the 9/10 commandments are also not in effect because Jesus "fulfilled" the law, well, you have to agree at least to follow the two great commandments: 1. Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself. If you strive to follow this, I'm sure God will be pretty pleased with your life. If you don't, that is another judgment day issue between you and God. 

So, for me, this should not be a massive black and white tug of war battle between the Mosaic Law is in effect advocates vs. the New covenant has replaced Moses advocates.  We each have free will to decide what course we shall take on this and know that it is personal. We should express out thoughts and support it with scripture, but we should not judge the one from the other camp, and that goes both ways. I don't believe I need to eat porky, but I should respect someone who does believe the opposite. And this works the other way as well.

i hope we all can find enough common ground and tolerance regarding this issue. Heaven knows, imo, we have enough other issues much bigger to overcome. 

Spock out

[other one]

On 1/4/2016 at 2:16 PM, 1to3 said:

If we look at all the people God used and transformed, they were all at fist sinners. The difference with those sinners was that with all their sins, they still came to God and asked God for His Mercy and Grace.

Even in their imperfections, God worked in them and helped to transform them into the the men/women of God they slowly became.

Abraham, Isaac , Jacob, Moses, all sinned and made mistakes, yet God kept helping them and transformed them into men of God.

It is a process.

 

the difference between then and now is the New covenant that was fulfilled on the cross by Christ Jesus.

Christ Jesus said,  that He has to go so that the Helper, could come into our heart and work in pour heart to teach us and lead us from within to all who called for Gods plan of Mercy and Grace.

John 14: 15,16,17, (Christ Jesus promises the Holy Spirit of god to come make a home in their hearts)

John 16:7

…6"But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;…

 

Christ Jesus said
15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.…

 

The laws and man made religious add on laws, we the laws no more in effect, such as having to sacrifice animals for our sins.

At the time of Christ Jesus crucifixion, the temple of the holy of hollies was torn in two, that was a place where they would go and place a sacrificed animal for redemption of their sins.

That place of Hollies, was ripped in half at the time of Christs crucifixion.

after Christ Jesus fulfilled Gods plan of Mercy and Grace  on the cross at Calvary,

we were no longer in meed of being circumcised outwardly  as belonging to Christ Jesus, our hearts have been inwardly circumcised, Romans 2 : 15

"who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness and between themselves their thoughts accusing them or excusing them,"

 

 

Christ Jesus came so that the Law of God be fulfilled for the Jew first and then the Gentile=all that is not Jewish.

Romans 1: 16

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

 

 

if you follow the two laws that Jesus gave us to live by, which of the commandments could a person break....   with the exception of the fourth.   Let me ask you this::::

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Matt 25:31-46

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink? 38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 'And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
NASB

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is red in my Bibles because it's Jesus himself talking.....       read this very carefully and tell me what of the ten commandments did this group of people that Jesus says he's sending to hell broke.

This is the danger of pushing the ten commandments instead of getting inside the Two we are supposed to be living by.   You can live by the ten commandments and still go to hell by not getting involved and preaching what is inside the two.