Soaking Sessions

[thereselittleflower]

7 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Ok, so you believe that a person must be engaged in self denial, or they can not be His disciples?

Do you believe if a person does not believe in self denial, they are not saved as all saved people are His disciples? 

I think they walk a dangerous path and could depart from the path of salvation if they do not put to death the passions of the flesh a commanded by scripture.  The cross is the only way they can do this, and denying one's self is the only way to carry the cross.

Please understand that this is not possible without the power of God.  Only God can enable us to do so.

 

Let me ask you this -  do you ever struggle with some particular sin?

 

How do you deal with it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Qnts2]

6 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

I think they walk a dangerous path and could depart from the path of salvation if they do not put to death the passions of the flesh a commanded by scripture.  The cross is the only way they can do this, and denying one's self is the only way to carry the cross.

Please understand that this is not possible without the power of God.  Only God can enable us to do so.

 

Let me ask you this -  do you ever struggle with some particular sin?

 

How do you deal with it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good

I would say that while we are new creations, our minds were not erased. All of the old habits and ways we used to achieve what it is we wanted are still in our minds. Those wants, and the ways to achieve are the only way that we know, so our minds need to be renewed to see it God's way. How is that accomplished? By reading scripture, and by prayer. Letting God change us and the way we have operated before we were saved.

At one point, I was struggling with something. I would try to act the way I should, but kept stumbling. I would repent and pull myself up by my 'boot straps' and try harder. I would once again fail, kick myself for being a failure, determine once again to try harder, pull myself up by my bootstraps and do ok for a while. The problem was, I was still thinking in my old way but as a new creation desired to do as God wanted. It is a horrible cycle. 

And then one day, I stopped, and asked God for help. I prayed and prayed. And God changed my mind in that area, so I stopped my fight and now God renewed my mind in that area so that I saw things differently. The struggle ended. I did not do it by self denial, but by having a renewed mind in that area. 

[Pamelasv]

38 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Self denial is about self. Christianity is about being a new creation which means new desires. It is not something that we do. The new desire gives Jesus a higher priority. It does not come by denying self, but by becoming new by the work of Jesus.

In religion, a person wants to act as they suppose they should. It is by works, which usually include self denial. Self denial would be denying the old nature, or the old man, to do what a person believes God requires of them. In Christianity, a person is a new creation. The old man is dead. Desires have changed.

Now, if a person is called into a ministry, like Paul, the desire is based on the ministry. Paul cared deeply for the churches/assemblies and desired that they grow into the fullness of Jesus. It is that God given desire which drove Paul. Is it self denial, to go after a God given desire? Well, given a choice between say sleep, and doing what a person desires (given by God), sleep comes second.   

 

I have to disagree that self denial is not something we do.  In my experience, it is partially God given desires, but who can claim suddenly the flesh disappeared and we no longer have desires and thoughts of the flesh we have to put away and take our thoughts captive?  I personally really have no idea what you are arguing about. 

[angels4u]

 My desire is to do what Jesus wants me too but that does not mean I don't fail Him, I do sin every day .

When we become born again we become a new creation and God will change our desire to please Him and to live for Him.

I will never make it to heaven by works nor self denial , we serve a might God who saves by grace and not by anything we can add to it .

 

Eph 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith 1 John 5:4

Romans 9:32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone

[thereselittleflower]

14 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good

I would say that while we are new creations, our minds were not erased. All of the old habits and ways we used to achieve what it is we wanted are still in our minds. Those wants, and the ways to achieve are the only way that we know, so our minds need to be renewed to see it God's way. How is that accomplished? By reading scripture, and by prayer. Letting God change us and the way we have operated before we were saved.

At one point, I was struggling with something. I would try to act the way I should, but kept stumbling. I would repent and pull myself up by my 'boot straps' and try harder. I would once again fail, kick myself for being a failure, determine once again to try harder, pull myself up by my bootstraps and do ok for a while. The problem was, I was still thinking in my old way but as a new creation desired to do as God wanted. It is a horrible cycle. 

And then one day, I stopped, and asked God for help. I prayed and prayed. And God changed my mind in that area, so I stopped my fight and now God renewed my mind in that area so that I saw things differently. The struggle ended. I did not do it by self denial, but by having a renewed mind in that area. 

So are you saying that you stopped resisting the temptation and then started indulging in it until God changed your mind?

I'm asking because I am really unclear as to what exactly you are saying happened.

What I am unclear about is what happened at  point "B" below:

 

• A)   trying to pull  yourself up by your bootstraps -  temptation, stumble, temptation, stumble, temptation stumble

  B)

  C)  A changed, renewed mind

Point B would be the transition from A to C and I simply don't understand what you said happened.  I don't understand what happened between the time you "stopped" trying to pull yourself up by your  bootstraps and when God changed your mind.

 

 

 

[Qnts2]

No, I am not saying 'So are you saying that you stopped resisting the temptation and then started indulging in it until God changed your mind?'

I stopped trying to deal with it under my own power and ability. That did not work. 

I have seen people go up for alter call after alter call, for the same thing for years. They were trying to do it on their own, self denial, or pulling up their boot straps, determining to do better next time, resist harder, etc. And fail again and again, beat themselves up for being a failure, go up for prayer, and determine to try harder and do better. 

God changed my mind, or renewed my mind. I would say I entered rest rather then fighting under my own strength. 

My biggest struggle was probably learning how to rest. I thought to get approval and to please God meant I had to be always doing something for God. I heard or felt God tell me to stop. It drove me 'nuts' as I viewed if I was to stop, I was not pleasing God. But, I wanted to be obedient. I told friends about this and many were very upset saying, you can't just stop doing things for God. It took months, reading scripture and praying, until I realized that you can not please God anymore then what Jesus did was what pleased God. I was pleasing to God because of what Jesus did. Nothing I did would make me more pleasing to God. It was when my mind was renewed, when I really understood, that I also fully understood what works were. At that point, I also understood what scripture meant by rest. Rest does not mean doing nothing, but rest is resting in what Jesus did and from there not working, but serving with joy, not for my gain, but to glorify Jesus. 

[thereselittleflower]

1 minute ago, Qnts2 said:

No, I am not saying 'So are you saying that you stopped resisting the temptation and then started indulging in it until God changed your mind?'

I stopped trying to deal with it under my own power and ability. That did not work. 

I have seen people go up for alter call after alter call, for the same thing for years. They were trying to do it on their own, self denial, or pulling up their boot straps, determining to do better next time, resist harder, etc. And fail again and again, beat themselves up for being a failure, go up for prayer, and determine to try harder and do better. 

God changed my mind, or renewed my mind. I would say I entered rest rather then fighting under my own strength. 

My biggest struggle was probably learning how to rest. I thought to get approval and to please God meant I had to be always doing something for God. I heard or felt God tell me to stop. It drove me 'nuts' as I viewed if I was to stop, I was not pleasing God. But, I wanted to be obedient. I told friends about this and many were very upset saying, you can't just stop doing things for God. It took months, reading scripture and praying, until I realized that you can not please God anymore then what Jesus did was what pleased God. I was pleasing to God because of what Jesus did. Nothing I did would make me more pleasing to God. It was when my mind was renewed, when I really understood, that I also fully understood what works were. At that point, I also understood what scripture meant by rest. Rest does not mean doing nothing, but rest is resting in what Jesus did and from there not working, but serving with joy, not for my gain, but to glorify Jesus. 

Did that change in mind happen instantly?

 

[other one]

you people should do some research on this before you try and discuss it...  It's not that difficult to find.

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

If Christianity is not about self denial, then that would logically mean Jesus got it wrong.

But Jesus said:

 

• Matthew 16

  Take Up Your Cross
  24Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.…

 

Self denial is central to the Christian faith.

Yes, self denial does focus us on ourselves to a certain extent.  One has to be aware of self in order to be able to deny self, but that is no more than we must be aware of self in our everyday life.

There is a difference of being having our thoughts be on ourselves and being self indulgent.    And even in self denial we must be careful not to think too much of ourselves or we can get off balance in that direction too.

But to say Christianity is not about self denial when Jesus puts it front and center as such a promiment and necessary requirement for following Him is to make a very grave error about what Christianity is.  

 

Without self denial there is no following Jesus, so logically speaking without self denial there is no Christianity.

 

 

 

Shalom, thereselittleflower.

Timing is everything. Not everything that was said in the Gospels, even by Yeshua` Himself, is for everyone in every time. The statements of Yeshua` that were recorded in Matthew 16:24-25 is NOT for our time period. It was not a universalism, nor was it a command for all future followers. It was said as a way to say that the open enrollment for class had come to a close. They had reached the cut-off point. One could no longer even sign up to audit the class, unless he or she was so dedicated to the task of learning what the Master was teaching that nothing would stand in his or her way.

Look at the context:

Matthew 16:13-17:2
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ (the Messiah), the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. (Why not?)
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan (Hebrew: Enemy): thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
KJV

His time was admittedly growing short. He had no time for those who weren't serious about learning what He had to teach.

 

[thereselittleflower]

12 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, thereselittleflower.

Timing is everything. Not everything that was said in the Gospels, even by Yeshua` Himself, is for everyone in every time. The statements of Yeshua` that were recorded in Matthew 16:24-25 is NOT for our time period. It was not a universalism, nor was it a command for all future followers. It was said as a way to say that the open enrollment for class had come to a close. They had reached the cut-off point. One could no longer even sign up to audit the class, unless he or she was so dedicated to the task of learning what the Master was teaching that nothing would stand in his or her way.

Look at the context:

Matthew 16:13-17:2
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ (the Messiah), the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. (Why not?)
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan (Hebrew: Enemy): thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
KJV

His time was admittedly growing short. He had no time for those who weren't serious about learning what He had to teach.

 

I'm sorry, but I see no evidence for your view his words in Luke 16:24-25 are not for us to heed today as well.  The context is ANY MAN.

I'm just really a bit amazed that people are denying a very basic and fundamental aspect of the Christian faith.

 

I think Ayn Rand has had too great an affect on people in our culture.  Her philosophy is so insidious.