The Gates of Hell

[Your closest friendnt]

17 minutes ago, St_Worm2 said:

Though I am principally a NASB user, I still have a lot of the KJV locked in my head. NASB, NIV, NKJV all use "gates of Hades", while the KJV and ESV both use "gates of Hell" (so it seems to me that either will do). Typically, I use the two words interchangeably to mean a place of flame, torment, etc. the afterlife abode of unbelievers. I also use Hell AND/OR the Lake of Fire to mean to final abode of the reprobate and the devil, normally hoping that context will shed light on the exact place I am talking about.

In contrast, the good place or places I refer to as "Heaven", or "Paradise" or "Abraham's Bosom" (though when I use the latter two I am normally speaking of the temporary abode of the OT "saints").

Hope that helps

--David

 

 

 

Hello brother David, there is more than one reason to make the inquiry. 

When Jesus was saying the above statement that was before the Cross, and Jesus describe the world that existed and he must know why he use " HADES ", and there is a good reason why all the original manuscripts have only use " HADES.

This Hades, is was known to the other Nations, particular to the Greeks and Romans.

Hades was the only Human Inheritance before the Cross, and the world was not without Judgement for they were different places  in Hades the place for the just and the place for the unjust, the point I want to make is, the Greeks and at least the Romans new those things and they were correct. 

 The children of the Lord also they went to Hades but in their own place.

This is the result of the fall of Adam. 

The captivity of the human race, spiritual death. 

I need to ask something so it is very important to clarified this issue. 

Let me know how you see things, so I go forward to your post.

[RustyAngeL]

17 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Those of you who have been participating in this thread, have probably noticed that it has become much shorter and that many of your posts have been deleted. We were getting complaints about one poster in particular here, suggesting that he should be banned, and in fact someone did that him.

I was looking for some of the posts that he had made to see what caused all the fuss. That brought me to this particular thread. I began to see some of the off-the-wall and bizarre non-scriptural ideas this person was promoting and in my judgment some of those should not be here as they could confuse people who are not that sophisticated in their Bible and theological knowledge.

The problem then became that if I deleted a particular post, there's somewhere later in the thread would be someone's reply to that post, and usually a quote of the post. Well, if there is a quote of the post then that person's heretical teachings are still on display. I could have got in to those replies and deleted the quoted parts but then the replies look sort of nonsensical and confusing without the context of what it is that was being replied to.

So it became necessary to delete some of the replies as well as the posts that were being replied to, but there was more to it than that.

The thing is, that this thread actually has a topic. The problem was that it had not stayed on topic. It had gone off into discussions and speculations about what language the New Testament was written in, whether the New Testament was even valid, history of the church, a discussion of communion and even suggestions that participating in communion is a sin. There were personal attacks, attacks against denominations, and other ugly and irrelevant things to the thread topic.

It was so much work trying to undo all of the job that it became obvious to me that the only practical way to deal with this thread was to start at the end of its and work my way back to the beginning of the thread getting rid of all of the posts that have strayed from the topic. It was just the least complicated way to deal with the problem.

I was tempted to just delete the entire thread, certainly that would have been a lot easier, much less work for me. However, the thread as it began was legitimate so I really didn't want to destroy the whole thing, I only wanted it to be restored to something worthwhile.

I am sorry that this means that some posts which were well thought out and written were deleted in the process, and they would have been fine in the context of threads which were actually about the topics that were being discussed in some of the posts.

However, they were so inextricably interwoven with weird topics and bad posts and bickering, that I just had to really severely gut this thread to a large degree.

I am sorry that I had to destroy a lot of hard work that some of you put into this thread, but it was the only way I can see to reading it.

If anyone chooses to continue to participate in this thread, I suggest that you read the original post and see what the thread is about and reply to that topic.

I have spent almost 2 hours cleaning up this thread, is 4:33 in the morning, and I am tired, I need sleep, but I'm not through working on this thread. I expect I will be back after I've had some rest.

Omega you are a true gift from God for this site.  Thank you for all your time and effort.  God Bless brother!

[St_Worm2]

On 5/15/2016 at 2:14 PM, Ezra said:

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω, ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.
King James 2000 Bible
And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.

The word translated as "hell" in many versions is the Greek word "Hades", which changes the common understanding of this verse. Until the resurrection of Christ, the souls and spirits of the Old Testament saints went to Abraham's Bosom, which was a section in Hades reserved for the righteous dead. In one sense they were in prison, awaiting the finished work of Christ. Following His resurrection, all these saints were taken to Heaven by Christ.  Since Christ's resurrection, not a single saint goes to Hades, but goes directly to Heaven. Thus the metaphorical gates of Hades do not, and cannot, prevail against the Church (which is in Heaven).  Even for those Christians who are on earth, Paul tells us that our citizenship is in Heaven.  

 

 

Hi Ezra, that is an interpretation that I have never considered, thanks. That certainly removes any idea of Hell forcefully advancing against us (in this verse, at least .. though I have read a number of commentaries that believe this verse is talking about just such an advancement). One question though, since "Hades" does have two parts (as you mentioned), how do we know that this verse speaks only to Abraham's Bosom?

Thanks!

--David

p.s. - sorry for the delay in replying, but now that the derailment is over, I thought we could get back to the OP.

[Ezra]

40 minutes ago, St_Worm2 said:

One question though, since "Hades" does have two parts (as you mentioned), how do we know that this verse speaks only to Abraham's Bosom?

Christ identified Abraham's Bosom (in the lower parts of the earth or the heart of the earth) as the location of the righteous dead (the OT saints). Those souls and spirits were taken to Heaven at the resurrection of Christ, and are a part of the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body), but called "the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:23). So that is why the Gates of Hades have not prevailed over the saints. 

Christ "led captivity captive" (Eph 4:8-10) after He descended into the lower parts of the earth.  And since the resurrection every believer goes to Heaven. Also, Death and Hades (personified) will be ultimately cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[St_Worm2]

Thanks! That's a great explanation and it makes sense in context. It is amazing how many different interpretations there are of both the 1st and the 2nd half of this verse!

--David

 

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2016 by St_Worm2

[Your closest friendnt]

On 5/23/2016 at 3:54 PM, St_Worm2 said:

Thanks! That's a great explanation and it makes sense in context. It is amazing how many different interpretations there are of both the 1st and the 2nd half of this verse!

--David

 

 

 

 

Since you said "makes sence in context", we are waiting to hear what is the contex and how it makes sence, for it is about time for someone to say those words. 

Please say something for us to understand what is this all about.

From what I understand you are giving a testimony that your understanding has change, from the time when you first posted this subject . if you could elaborate fine, if not that's still it is up to you, to keep this blessing to your self. 

[WilliamL]

On 5/14/2016 at 1:01 AM, St_Worm2 said:

The famous verse in question reads as follows:

I have always believed (because I was always taught) that Hell is waging an ongoing "offensive" against the church, but that it (Hell) will never prevail. But as I've considered it again recently, that doesn't seem to be what it's saying at all. Gates, for instance, especially in the ancient world, were defensive weapons, NOT offensive. And since that is true, does it not make more sense to understand that the church is the one on the offensive and that the "gates of Hell" will not prevail against our forceful advance (or keep the church at bay forever)? 

There are more things to discuss about the second half of this verse, but I wanted to get your thoughts on this first. 

What is your understanding of Matthew 16:18b? Are the, "gates of Hell", an offensive weapon aimed at destroying the church, or a defensive weapon used to try to hold the church at bay?

Or does it mean something else altogether??

If you wouldn't mind, please explain why you believe what you do?

Thanks  

--David

 

On 5/15/2016 at 12:14 PM, Ezra said:

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω, ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.
King James 2000 Bible
And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.

The word translated as "hell" in many versions is the Greek word "Hades", which changes the common understanding of this verse. Until the resurrection of Christ, the souls and spirits of the Old Testament saints went to Abraham's Bosom, which was a section in Hades reserved for the righteous dead. In one sense they were in prison, awaiting the finished work of Christ. Following His resurrection, all these saints were taken to Heaven by Christ.  Since Christ's resurrection, not a single saint goes to Hades, but goes directly to Heaven. Thus the metaphorical gates of Hades do not, and cannot, prevail against the Church (which is in Heaven).  Even for those Christians who are on earth, Paul tells us that our citizenship is in Heaven. 

I was going to bring up this verse/topic, but see that it has been covered. But it is good for a review, since some Pentecostals and others, citing this verse, teach that the Church is to make an assault on Hades/Hell.

Ezra covered most of the answer, but I think a bit more needs to be pointed out. When Christ descended to Hades and "preached unto the spirits in prison," 2 Pet. 3:19, He converted -- and thus brought unto salvation, that is, into the Church -- the souls of the righteous dead. They, becoming part of the Church, "the gates of Hades could not prevail against them" TO KEEP THEM IN PRISON. The Gates of Hades were/are used to keep souls IN, not OUT.

Those gates are no longer to be assaulted by the Church (no reason to release the damned, who the only ones in Hades now), and neither are those gates offensive weapons against the Church, because a gate is not a weapon.

[Denadii]

On 5/14/2016 at 1:01 AM, St_Worm2 said:

The famous verse in question reads as follows:

I have always believed (because I was always taught) that Hell is waging an ongoing "offensive" against the church, but that it (Hell) will never prevail. But as I've considered it again recently, that doesn't seem to be what it's saying at all. Gates, for instance, especially in the ancient world, were defensive weapons, NOT offensive. And since that is true, does it not make more sense to understand that the church is the one on the offensive and that the "gates of Hell" will not prevail against our forceful advance (or keep the church at bay forever)? 

There are more things to discuss about the second half of this verse, but I wanted to get your thoughts on this first. 

What is your understanding of Matthew 16:18b? Are the, "gates of Hell", an offensive weapon aimed at destroying the church, or a defensive weapon used to try to hold the church at bay?

Or does it mean something else altogether??

If you wouldn't mind, please explain why you believe what you do?

Thanks  

--David

 

 

 

Matthew 16:18 (CJB)

¹⁸ I also tell you this: you are Kefa,” [which means ‘Rock,’] “and on this rock I will build my Community, and the gates of Sh’ol will not overcome it.

 

Why don't you do a study on 'gates' and meanings?

Like this.... The gates of a city are the point at which attackers lay siege, the weakest point. The strength of a city is directly related to the strength or power of its gates. Here Hades or hell is represented as a city with its strength in its gates. The gates represent the power of hell, and the Church is stronger.

Let us know what you learn.

[Fidei Defensor]

Some fun facts about this verse. Jesus actually took the Disciples to the Gates of Hell where he taught this. The Gates of Hell was caves on Earth to the underworld that pagans used to consult the dead and the spirits of dead. The god Pan was enshrined above these caves called the Gates of Hell. I think Jesus was saying to His disciples, "you are going to preach to pagans, to Gentiles and those who live in gates of hell spiritually. And neither Rome nor the Greeks or any of pagans will overcome the Gospel" However, I do agree this is also a spiritual reality, that the gates of hell (spiritually) won't prevail against the Church either. As usual, Jesus' words are loaded with layers like an onion, and as you peel you find more and more wisdom because He is wisdom and all knowledge (Colossians 2:2-3).