A fence-sitter finally jumps off

[hmbld]

25 minutes ago, Ezra said:

1. Enoch trusted God -- his faith is commended

2. Enoch walked with God

3. Enoch pleased God

3. Enoch was translated/raptured by God

4. Enoch was not a ritualist but a man of faith

5. Enoch was a prophet

6. Enoch was not subjected to tribulation

6. Enoch is a type of the Church

I like your numbered, short points.  The second point number 6 caused me to pause, I am used to thinking of "types" as pertaining to Christ.  I don't know if it is correct to refer to a type in relation to  the Church, but that isn't the point I am thinking on.  Many thought when Christ came, He would be a King as we think of men being kings, to rule this earth.  Instead, He laid His life down, and suffered much.  I am not sure pointing to Enoch can be a valid reason to say pre-trib is correct.  

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Endtime_Survivors said:

This has also been my experience.  I don't think anyone looks forward to suffering.  Jesus asked for some kind of alternative, but he also had a resolve to move forward with what God wanted for him.

I think we can be like that, too.  Jesus said that we should pray that the trib won't be in winter or at a time when we're resting etc. The 144k are given at least some miraculous protection (i.e. they are immune from the stinging locust creatures). They get that protection because they are specially marked by God and they get that special marking because they "follow the lamb withersoever he goeth".  I think there is an important lesson there. Our best protection is to be willing to follow God where ever he may lead, even if he's leading us into a fiery furnace (i.e. like Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego).

Immediately after describing how Christians would be betrayed by their friends and family, how we'd be handed over to authorities, hunted down and killed, he says, "but not a hair of your head will be harmed".  Obviously he's talking about a different kind of "harm" than just what happens to our physical bodies.  The spirit is infinitely more important than the physical, so while our bodies may suffer and die, our spirit will be protected.

The pre-trib theory seems to miss all this; that it is a willingness to forsake everything, including our lives, which gives us power over this world. The Revelation says the saints overcome the Beast by the word of their testimony and by not loving their lives even unto death. Jesus said that no one took his life from him; he chose to lay it down. Look at the impact that choice has had on the world. That choice communicates something powerful that speaks to us deep down inside; integrity, courage, and backbone.

The pre-trib theory seems to communicate the opposite to the world; when the going gets rough, the Christians will run away.  If God chooses to spare us from the Tribulation, I'll be thrilled, but being spared from trouble isn't the message I see Jesus preaching.  God won't give us more than we can take, which means that at an individual level he is intimately involved in what each of us goes through, but concerning the bigger picture of being a witness to the world Jesus' message is one of confronting our fears and showing the world that we really do have something worth dying for.

Excellent points. And exemplary of the conditions we endure.

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Ezra said:

This is another Pre-Trib Bashing thread.  When the Scriptures are presented in context, they are not accepted or another interpretation is given to avoid the significance. Emotion and fear? Bah! Humbug!

No. This is another defense of the scriptures of truth. 

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Ezra said:

Well since the Rapture is a supernatural event, Christians don't run away from anything.  Enoch was not running away either.

This brings up an interesting point. Not much is said about Enoch. The greatest significance of the mention of Enoch is:

Genesis 5:23:24 "And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

The major point here is Enoch's translation. Both OT and NT cite this translation and the reason for it; He pleased God and did not see death as God took him. This has no correlation with a Pre Trib rapture.

Pre Trib suggests an early exit before a difficult time, Enoch was taken because he pleased God(as was Elijah, no doubt). If the church was to be taken in the same manner one would think the same reason for translation would apply. But it doesn't. If the scriptures record a translation before death of Enoch and Elijah, why does the scripture omit the future translation before death of millions of people from all over the world? 

 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Ezra said:

This is another Pre-Trib Bashing thread.  When the Scriptures are presented in context, they are not accepted or another interpretation is given to avoid the significance. Emotion and fear? Bah! Humbug!

Pre Trib ideology presents little in context. I studied and adhered to Pre Trib for decades. The problem I had was making sense of what writers like Lindsey, LaHaye, Missler, Lalonde and Marrs, etc. were advancing in light of what the scriptures actually say. Further, major biblical concepts that would apply in every other situation are ignored in favor Pre Trib ideology. One of these is Hebrews 12. This goes along with the suffering and death of the apostles, prophets, Jesus and the ongoing persecution, at this very moment, of believers all over the world. I bet none of them buy into a Pre Trib doctrine. How is it that believers the world over can suffer and die for their testimony but Western Christians are immune? Where is the Pre Trib salvation for them?

 

[Last Daze]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Pre Trib ideology presents little in context. I studied and adhered to Pre Trib for decades. The problem I had was making sense of what writers like Lindsey, LaHaye, Missler, Lalonde and Marrs, etc. were advancing in light of what the scriptures actually say. Further, major biblical concepts that would apply in every other situation are ignored in favor Pre Trib ideology. One of these is Hebrews 12. This goes along with the suffering and death of the apostles, prophets, Jesus and the ongoing persecution, at this very moment, of believers all over the world. I bet none of them buy into a Pre Trib doctrine. How is it that believers the world over can suffer and die for their testimony but Western Christians are immune? Where is the Pre Trib salvation for them?

 

Good points.  The question for Western Christians is do they know the Bridegroom well enough to know how much oil to bring to the watch party?

[Sister]

On 30/06/2016 at 2:26 AM, Endtime_Survivors said:

This has also been my experience.  I don't think anyone looks forward to suffering.  Jesus asked for some kind of alternative, but he also had a resolve to move forward with what God wanted for him.

I think we can be like that, too.  Jesus said that we should pray that the trib won't be in winter or at a time when we're resting etc. The 144k are given at least some miraculous protection (i.e. they are immune from the stinging locust creatures). They get that protection because they are specially marked by God and they get that special marking because they "follow the lamb withersoever he goeth".  I think there is an important lesson there. Our best protection is to be willing to follow God where ever he may lead, even if he's leading us into a fiery furnace (i.e. like Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego).

Immediately after describing how Christians would be betrayed by their friends and family, how we'd be handed over to authorities, hunted down and killed, he says, "but not a hair of your head will be harmed".  Obviously he's talking about a different kind of "harm" than just what happens to our physical bodies.  The spirit is infinitely more important than the physical, so while our bodies may suffer and die, our spirit will be protected.

The pre-trib theory seems to miss all this; that it is a willingness to forsake everything, including our lives, which gives us power over this world. The Revelation says the saints overcome the Beast by the word of their testimony and by not loving their lives even unto death. Jesus said that no one took his life from him; he chose to lay it down. Look at the impact that choice has had on the world. That choice communicates something powerful that speaks to us deep down inside; integrity, courage, and backbone.

The pre-trib theory seems to communicate the opposite to the world; when the going gets rough, the Christians will run away.  If God chooses to spare us from the Tribulation, I'll be thrilled, but being spared from trouble isn't the message I see Jesus preaching.  God won't give us more than we can take, which means that at an individual level he is intimately involved in what each of us goes through, but concerning the bigger picture of being a witness to the world Jesus' message is one of confronting our fears and showing the world that we really do have something worth dying for.

Endtime_Survivors

Your words here are very powerful.  Thank you for sharing.

[Sister]

22 hours ago, Endtime_Survivors said:

I suppose so much depends on personal perspective and conviction.  That's part of what makes Jesus so appealing to me; he's not interested in the formulae of faith.  Over and over again he stresses the need for a deep, personal conviction irrespective of theology.  Was Enoch taken up because he performed the correct religious rituals that others had not?  What was it about him that God chose to deal with him differently to how he dealt with other humans? 

So very little is said about him so I am curious as to how others interpret his situation.

Jude 1:14   And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

After reading this scripture and searching the scriptures to find where Enoch said this, I did not find this prophecy in the old testament.  However, I obtained a copy of Enoch's writings and found it in there.  After much wrestling with trying to discern whether this book was in fact true because things were mentioned that I had never heard of before, I weighed it out with the prophesies that were 100% accurate concerning end times, the 1000 year millennial reign, and even up until the earth is melted and renewed.  Having the prophesies harmonise with scripture accurately without flaw, I realised the things mentioned that I did not understand were there to be understood for the last generation.  The information contained within this book is so valuable, and although it mentions Enoch alot, even the fine details about Enoch are not mentioned.

 

 Joshua 10:13   And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

I obtained a copy of Jasher last week and started delving into it to find fault.  I am only up to chapter 20, and so far intrigued with the historical accounts given.  There are details in here that the book of Enoch did not mention about Enoch.  Enoch was chosen by God and did a lot of preaching.  Many who wanted to hear truth came to Enoch and even kings and princes made Enoch ruler over them.  Whilst Enoch preached there was peace upon the earth and he prophesied of the evil that would escalate amongst all flesh before the flood.  Enoch was hand picked by God for that world back then, in that time for the saving of souls as a mediator between man and God in teaching the people righteousness because Jesus was not yet born into the world.  I think you will find your answers in the book of Jasher concerning Enoch, and hope you find it as interesting as I am so far.

 

[Sister]

22 hours ago, Endtime_Survivors said:

I suppose so much depends on personal perspective and conviction.  That's part of what makes Jesus so appealing to me; he's not interested in the formulae of faith.  Over and over again he stresses the need for a deep, personal conviction irrespective of theology.  Was Enoch taken up because he performed the correct religious rituals that others had not?  What was it about him that God chose to deal with him differently to how he dealt with other humans? 

So very little is said about him so I am curious as to how others interpret his situation.

Jude 1:14   And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

After reading this scripture and searching the scriptures to find where Enoch said this, I did not find this prophecy in the old testament.  However, I obtained a copy of Enoch's writings and found it in there.  After much wrestling with trying to discern whether this book was in fact true because things were mentioned that I had never heard of before, I weighed it out with the prophesies that were 100% accurate concerning end times, the 1000 year millennial reign, and even up until the earth is melted and renewed.  Having the prophesies harmonise with scripture accurately without flaw, I realised the things mentioned that I did not understand were there to be understood for the last generation.  The information contained within this book is so valuable, and although it mentions Enoch alot, even the fine details about Enoch are not mentioned.

 

 Joshua 10:13   And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

I obtained a copy of Jasher last week and started delving into it to find fault.  I am only up to chapter 20, and so far intrigued with the historical accounts given.  There are details in here that the book of Enoch did not mention about Enoch.  Enoch was chosen by God and did a lot of preaching.  Many who wanted to hear truth came to Enoch and even kings and princes made Enoch ruler over them.  Whilst Enoch preached there was peace upon the earth and he prophesied of the evil that would escalate amongst all flesh before the flood.  Enoch was hand picked by God for that world back then, in that time for the saving of souls as a mediator between man and God in teaching the people righteousness because Jesus was not yet born into the world.  I think you will find your answers in the book of Jasher concerning Enoch, and hope you find it as interesting as I am so far.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

59 minutes ago, Sister said:

However, I obtained a copy of Enoch's writings and found it in there.  

Was this the Hebrew or Ethiopian version?

I'm very interested in obtaining a copy of the Hebrew sourced version.  What was your source for the book you found?