Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Salty]

 

 

And this is why the discussion cannot progress, because we have to examine the events as they are given. So rather than stepping away, we hone in closer to make sure we don't miss important information.

We are indeed speaking about the resurrection seen in Revelation 20, now our task is to properly identify it. In the larger focus is the Rapture of the Church, and the resurrection here is said by some to deny that the Church is raptured prior to this time...because it is the "first" resurrection.

But we know it is not, because we already have Christ's resurrection, as well as the Two Witnesses, who cannot be said to be resurrected and raptured after Christ's Return (and this occurs in Revelation 19) because their resurrection takes place during the Second Woe, or, the Sixth Trumpet Judgment. This also denies a correlation to the Seventh Trumpet being the "last trump" spoken of by Paul.

 

 

Hello again Ranger,

 

Sorry for the delay in response, my schedule has been pretty full, and yesterday I sat down to reply but discovered I didn't feel too well, so I will give this another shot today.  I didn't mean step away from the first discussion altogether, I meant just for a moment to see if we can resolve the chronology issue.  However, if you wish to continue with it then that is okay with me.  So I'll start there and present you with your own scenario you used in a response to another member, which I agree with your methodology, but don't see you applying it consistently.

 

To paraphrase you, what you illustrated was that you have to learn lesson 1 before you advance to the next.  Once you get to lesson 10, you already know what you covered to get there.  The resurrection of Jesus was a given already, Revelation was the last book written and it deals with a very specific period of time.  Paul covers this in I Corinthians 15, everything we need to know about the resurrection to a glorified body is spoken of in that chapter.  Beginning with the resurrection of Jesus (verses 1-11), then the resurrection of the dead (verses 12-34), concluding with the resurrection body (verses 35-58).

 

In the section concerning the resurrection of the dead is a very important passage.

 

I Corinthians 15:²⁰ But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. ²¹ For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. ²² For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. ²³ But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

 

Apply what we have learned from scripture to this passage.  Who belongs to Him?  His sheep.  And He will gather them when He comes.  There was the resurrection of Christ, and there will be this resurrection spoken of here.  You only have one choice, Christ is the firstfruits, and when He comes it will be the turn for His sheep.  This doesn't allow for your extra two resurrections.

 

In the final section of the chapter, Paul makes it clear that this resurrection he has been discussing, is to a glorified body.

 

I Corinthians 15:⁴² So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; ⁴³ it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; ⁴⁴ it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. ⁴⁵ So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. ⁴⁶ The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

 

So again, we already know that everyone dies a natural death.  Therefore, when I say that those three groups of people in Revelation 20 are dead, I am referring to the natural death that we all must face.  The first two groups are both dead, or they wouldn't be in heaven, and group three is called "the rest of the dead", so obviously they are dead.  Believers do not face spiritual death, we are covered by the blood of Jesus.  Our sins are removed as far as the east is from the west, we are not subject to the judgement of the dead, or to the second death.  We will come to life and reign with Him during the millenium.  All of these attributes are given to the first two groups John discusses in Revelation 20.

 

Paul goes on to make it clear, only those clothed in the imperishable (glorified body) can inherit the eternal promise.

 

I Corinthians 15:⁵⁰ I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. ⁵¹ Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— ⁵² in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

Paul also makes it clear that we will all be changed at the same time to this glorified body.  Not everyone will sleep, but all will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.  All means those sleeping, and those awake, or, those dead and those alive.  This is the first resurrection John speaks of.  There are only two turns according to Paul, 1) Jesus Christ;  2) when He comes, His sheep.

 

So before we get to Revelation, we are supposed to know all these things.  In other words, lesson 1 in the New Testament is the gospel of Jesus Christ.  If you don't know that, Revelation will never be understandable.  All of scripture factors into this, everything we have learned from whenever we first heard the message.  This principle has to be applied consistently in order to arrive at the truth, not just when it supports a theory.

 

Does the church and scripture not teach that we will reign with Him during the millenium?  For me the answer is yes, if it is the same for you then that places you in one of those two groups John sees in Revelation 20 at the first resurrection.  Those with the authority to judge, and those who had been beheaded.  They come to life (receive their glorified bodies) and reign with Him.  Believers will judge the angels, Paul says that in I Corinthians as well.  Both of those groups are believers, they reign with Him.  And His rule is done with an iron scepter.

 

The group referred to as the rest of the dead will face judgement, they are not covered by His grace.  They will not wake until after the millenium.  They represent the first parable in Matthew 25, and I believe the second parable is in regards to the angels being judged.  Once the sheep and goats are divided following these two judgements, we usher in the eternal age.

 

Secondly, we see the resurrection of the dead which is specifically and undeniably stated to follow a thousand year reign of Christ. This is not called the Second Resurrection...but the Second Death.

 

 

Scripture does not call it the second resurrection, I agree.  However, you just correctly acknowledged in your statement that it is a resurrection.  Since it follows the first in sequence, that would make it the second.  It is notably different though, which is because not all of these people will receive a glorified body as depicted in the parable from Matthew 25.

 

Which again also causes us to understand that there is not just one general resurrection which takes place which we call the First Resurrection, but that the First Resurrection is a reference to the resurrection unto life. Only tribulation Martyrs are said to be raised at this time.

 

 

Paul clearly says that there is only one event like this that follows the resurrection of Christ, and he makes it clear that it is when He comes.  There is nothing in scripture about Him stopping, going back, and coming at a later time.

 

John clearly distinguishes between two different groups in Revelation 20.  He saw those with the authority to judge, and those who had been beheaded.  And is the key word there, that is basic English, we all learned this in grade school.  I think we all agree that the second group comes out of the tribulation based on what the passage says.  And in this same letter to the Corinthian church, Paul indicated in the form of a question that believers would judge the angels.  There is no mystery to the identity of these two groups, and as Paul clearly wrote in the passage we already looked at, there is only one resurrection involving the dead and living receiving their glorified bodies together.  Then there will be one for "the rest of the dead" after the millenium.

 

In regards to the scripture I posted from chapter 11, following the seventh trumpet.  It appears you are trying to explain this away by downplaying the importance of what was said, because it was something John heard as opposed to something he saw.  There are no mistakes in scripture, it is there because God instructed John to put it there.  Everything he heard was as a result of the 7th trumpet sounding, this is why they are speaking.

 

Revelation 11:¹⁵ The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become

    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

¹⁶ And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, ¹⁷ saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,

    the One who is and who was,

because you have taken your great power

    and have begun to reign.

¹⁸ The nations were angry,

    and your wrath has come.

The time has come for judging the dead,

    and for rewarding your servants the prophets

and your people who revere your name,

    both great and small—

and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

¹⁹ Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

 

The very first thing said is that His reign has come.  That means His coming, and the first resurrection have occurred.  Those who take part in the first resurrection come to life and reign with Him, so these are established facts right there, following the 7th trumpet being sounded.  Then the 24 elders confirm the above when they begin speaking.

 

1.  His reign has come.

2.  His wrath has come.

3.  The time to judge the dead has come.  (post millenium, this is "the rest of the dead" John speaks of in Rev. 20.

4.  The time has come to reward the prophets.  (post millenium, and note that the prophets are rewarded before the church, those would be Jews, just as Paul wrote in Romans several times; first for the Jew, then for the Gentile).

5.  The time has come to reward everyone else.

6.  Then comes the unfortunate conclusion for many.  (also post millenium, this is when the weeping and gnashing of teeth takes place.)

 

None of this can be downplayed in importance because it was spoken rather than seen.  This is what follows the sounding of the 7th trumpet, and all those major catastrophes that look the same, are the same, because this happens very quickly, just as Isaiah prophesied.  And Revelation is simply not chronological, this one trumpet judgement alone makes that clear.  This style is not unique, I already illustrated that we have seen this in Genesis.  We see a general story, and then we get more detailed accounts of certain events within that same story.  You see the same thing based on your response, but still argue chronology.  When both male and female exist in chapter 1, but at the start of chapter 2 there is only male, that is not chronological.  It is a detailed account of a larger story.

 

This is also clearly illustrated by the opening of the 6th seal, which occurs in Rev. 6.  The sun goes black, the moon blood red, and no more stars.  First off, this is precisely the conditions Zechariah describes in chapter 14, which is also discussing the very end.  So to accept this as chronological, you have to explain how the sun can be black from chapter 6 until the very end, along with all the stars having fallen, and the moon blood red, and these events follow.

 

Revelation 8:¹⁰ The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water—

 

The stars fell from the sky two chapters ago, and since all stars are in the sky, that means they all fell two chapters ago, this one doesn't exist chronologically.

 

Revelation 8:¹² The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.

 

The sun went black, the moon went blood red, and all the stars fell from the sky 2 chapters ago, none of this can happen chronologically.

 

Revelation 9:9 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.

 

Again, all the stars fell 3 chapters ago, so this can't happen chronologically.

 

Revelation 16:⁸ The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire.

 

The sun went black ten chapters ago, so this can't happen chronologically.

 

Revelation 16:¹⁰ The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness.

 

Again, the sun went black, the moon blood red, and all the stars fell from the sky ten chapters ago, the whole world was in darkness from this point on, so this can't happen chronologically.

 

What you will notice about all of these examples, is that they occur in a number less than 6, and it is the opening of the 6th seal in which the sun is blackened, the moon turns blood red, and all the stars in the sky fall.  The reason the measurement of one-third comes up so often, is to illustrate that you are seeing one-third of what is occurring.  7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls.....three separate viewpoints, each representing one-third of the total picture.

 

We are only given a specific length of time during the fifth trumpet, where we are told this judgement lasts 5 months.  The exact sequence and the timing allotted will vary on the others, all according to His plan.  But we do know one part of that plan is a fast finish according to Isaiah.  This is what the 6th and 7th judgements display.  This is all much simpler than the mess men have created with this.  Your arguments are ultimately based on debating words like "first", and taking something spoken as slightly diminished.  It isn't that it was spoken, it is why it was spoken.  The sounding of the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet in the book.

 

There are many things throughout scripture that hold both a literal and symbolic meaning, this is displayed throughout Revelation.  I think everything is clarified when you examine who represents the characters within some of the more detailed stories.  When it comes to Revelation 20, John distinguishes between two groups of people in that first resurrection.  Another way to say what he says in that verse is this,

 

I rode by a farm and saw some horses in the pasture, and then I saw some horses without heads. 

 

There is a difference between those two groups that is obvious.  The enemy wages war against the saints right after he rises from the fatal head wound, this is how he desecrates the temple.  The abomination that makes desolate is the mockery of Jesus and what was done at the cross, and three days after it.  Satan's unholy alliance is the mockery of the trinity, he places himself as the father, the beast as the son, and the false prophet as his unholy spirit.  This is why they don't face judgement, they all three go immediately into the lake of fire when God is finished with them.

 

Keep in mind also what the prophets Hosea and Isaiah foretold, clearly pointing to a time in the future that the Jews would be taken aside.  Revelation 12 establishes that the woman is protected from Satan, all of this indicates the Jews who will accept Jesus are not exposed to what happens those last three and a half years.  We also know that Jerusalem is given over to the Gentiles for the last three and a half years, more confirmation that they do as the prophets said they would.  The qualifications to be the offspring eliminates all unbelievers from representing this group.  There is only one choice here as well.  The church represents the believers, we are the only ones who hold to the New Testament.

 

It is in the days of the Seventh Angel, the Seventh Trumpet, that the mystery in view is finished. The mystery in view is the will of God revealed by His Prophets. In the last half of the Tribulation we see those that are saved and those that are not. No longer will there be doubt as to what is going on, but it will be known that the prophecies are being fulfilled.

 

 

This is the same mystery Paul refers to in I Corinthians 15, what is the number one question being asked in the OP, when is He coming?  Everything we have been discussing all revolves around this mystery.  And don't forget, Revelation is a prophecy, it would be included in that declaration from chapter 10.  What follows the sounding of the 7th trumpet confirms it.

 

Also we can look to chapter 18 of Revelation, which deals with the Fall of Babylon.  Look how it begins.

 

Revelation 18:⁴ Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“‘Come out of her, my people,’

    so that you will not share in her sins,

    so that you will not receive any of her plagues;"

 

This is at the beginning of a very specific day and hour, which is precisely what Jesus responded with to the disciples asking about His coming.  We see this throughout the chapter.  And also note that in verse 6 John heard that Babylon was to receive a double portion, and throughout the chapter you always see, "Woe, woe."  A double portion, or two woes.

 

Revelation 18:⁸ Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:

    death, mourning and famine.

She will be consumed by fire,

    for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

 

Revelation 18:¹⁰ Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,

    you mighty city of Babylon!

In one hour your doom has come!’

 

Revelation 18:¹⁷ In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’

 

Revelation 18:¹⁹ They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,

    where all who had ships on the sea

    became rich through her wealth!

In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’

 

It begins discussing this very specific day, and then emphasizes this very specific hour.  It is not a subtle point being made here.  What follows in chapter 19 is the conclusion of chapter 18, and says the wedding has come.  This also points directly to New Jerusalem, which John attaches to the bride in Revelation 21.  All roads lead to the same place, and they indicate a much different scenario than what the pre-trib doctrine teaches.  It really begins with letting go of the chronology issue, I simply cannot accept the suggestion that I disregard what is said after the 7th trumpet, or what Jesus said Himself.

 

As always, I am not wanting to attribute anything to you personally, I am just responding to the scenario you are presenting to me, and why I take issue with it as I understand it.  And as far as chronology goes, I have never accepted this book as chronological, and I never will.  It is abundantly clear to me that it is not.  I did not accept it as chronological when I believed the pre-trib theory, that is just not something I can forget.  I understand this is not well received, it is not the way I prefer, but it is not up to us.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

 

 

Jesus said...

 

John 5

²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

²⁹ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

That destroys any idea that the wicked dead are not resurrected on that day of Christ's coming also.

[wingnut-]

 

Jesus said...

 

John 5

²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

²⁹ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

That destroys any idea that the wicked dead are not resurrected on that day of Christ's coming also.

 

 

Exactly salty   This is precisely what Daniel saw as well, and speaks to the millenium only being a day.  A resurrection of the living at the start of the day, and a resurrection of the dead at the conclusion of the day.

[Marilyn C]

 

Hi wingnut,

 

Yes `living waters` are in Zech. & Rev. however they speak of different times. In Zech. we see that when the Lord descends upon Mt. of Olives that it splits in two & living waters flow out across the land to the sea. This is in the Millennium & helps heal the land & the waters. In Rev. we see that this is referring to after the Millennium, when there is the New heavens & New Earth & note, there is NO SEA. (Rev. 21: 1)

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

You are a blessing, and your knowledge of scripture is as well.  What I want to point out to you, is that you have the correct pieces, but you are not putting them together.  First, I just want to clarify that I do not see this as judgement, sorry if I gave you that impression.  The feast of trumpets and the day of atonement is what I see as judgement, the three festivals go together.

 

Now as to the Feast of Tabernacles, that is a celebration of God with us. It is not of judgment that you had thought in another post but means `God with us.` So all the nations gathering to celebrate this, is a time of rejoicing.

 

 

Above we see a time of rejoicing for all people, kinda like a wedding supper?

We see God with us.  When does this happen?

 

Revelation 21:² I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. ³ And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ⁴ ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

 

Zechariah is pointing to the very end, he uses symbolism to do so.  The red letters above tell you precisely when this happens.  You see the same thing I do, you are just not connecting them.  This is the same reason horses and kitchen pottery are said to be sacred, these are things that will not take place until it is done.  Everything that enters into God the Father's presence must be imperishable.  I am not picking and choosing these symbols, they are apparent when you understand the purpose.

 

What was the purpose of Jesus?  When we understand the purpose, we should know that animal sacrifice is not coming back, correct?  The unchanging purpose of God ultimately includes no more death, animals as well as people.  When the Jews rebuild the temple and start their sacrifices again, are they saved?  No.  You know these things as well as I do.

 

God bless you sister.

 

Hi wingnut,

 

Thank you for your kind words, & it`s a blessing to speak to brothers too in our discussions with gentleness & respect. And thank you for saying you see I have the pieces but not in the right order. That would be helpful except I would say that to you.  Only the Lord can sort us out, ay, wingnut.

 

Well the `Feast of Tabernacles` is part of the trilogy of Feasts as you so rightly said - Trumpets & Day of Atonement coming first which we can see is in the 70th week, & most necessary for Israel to receive their Messiah. Now comes our differences. I see the `wife` of the Lamb & the subsequent marriage as a symbol of God being reunited with His former `wife` Israel as God says in Hosea - `And it shall be in that day, says the Lord, that you will call me "My husband," ....I will betroth you to me for ever:` (Hosea 2: 16 & 19) `Let us be glad & rejoice & give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, & His wife has made herself ready.` (Rev. 19: 7) This is then the reason for the Feast of Tabernacles - God with us - in the Millennium.

 

The symbol of the `Bride` is again used in the New Heavens & New earth to show the uniting of God with His creation through the medium of Christ`s rulership through the New Jerusalem & the people there. Two different times for two different purposes - time & eternity.

 

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Salty]

 

 

Jesus said...

 

John 5

²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

²⁹ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

That destroys any idea that the wicked dead are not resurrected on that day of Christ's coming also.

 

 

Exactly salty   This is precisely what Daniel saw as well, and speaks to the millenium only being a day.  A resurrection of the living at the start of the day, and a resurrection of the dead at the conclusion of the day.

 

 

Um... might want to look again, that John 5:28-29 Scripture by our Lord Jesus is not revealing a resurrection of the wicked at the end of Christ's "thousand years" reign. He is declaring that "resurrection of damnation" on the day of His return, which is also the day He gathers His Church. If you hold to man's pre-trib rapture theory, I suspect you'll probably continue to disregard that John 5:28-29 Scripture as others do here.

[wingnut-]

 

Hi wingnut,

 

Thank you for your kind words, & it`s a blessing to speak to brothers too in our discussions with gentleness & respect. And thank you for saying you see I have the pieces but not in the right order. That would be helpful except I would say that to you.  Only the Lord can sort us out, ay, wingnut.

 

Well the `Feast of Tabernacles` is part of the trilogy of Feasts as you so rightly said - Trumpets & Day of Atonement coming first which we can see is in the 70th week, & most necessary for Israel to receive their Messiah. Now comes our differences. I see the `wife` of the Lamb & the subsequent marriage as a symbol of God being reunited with His former `wife` Israel as God says in Hosea - `And it shall be in that day, says the Lord, that you will call me "My husband," ....I will betroth you to me for ever:` (Hosea 2: 16 & 19) `Let us be glad & rejoice & give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, & His wife has made herself ready.` (Rev. 19: 7) This is then the reason for the Feast of Tabernacles - God with us - in the Millennium.

 

The symbol of the `Bride` is again used in the New Heavens & New earth to show the uniting of God with His creation through the medium of Christ`s rulership through the New Jerusalem & the people there. Two different times for two different purposes - time & eternity.

 

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

You are welcome, and I meant every word.  However, I didn't say you had the pieces in the wrong order, just that you weren't connecting them   What I mean of course, is that we see specifically in Revelation where God is with us, and we see that exact symbolic reference at the conclusion of Zechariah and you don't want to connect them together.  Along with the the horses and kitchen pottery, plus the living water, all of which point to New Jerusalem per Revelation, this is pretty concrete evidence.

 

Also, John connects New Jerusalem to the bride.  I understand that scripture establishes the church is part of the bride as well, which in no way conflicts with what John says here.  All who enter New Jerusalem are part of the bride.

 

Revelation 21: ⁹ One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” ¹⁰ And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

 

The marriage supper therefore comes at the end, it is the symbol of a marriage supper to us, because we have the New Testament.  It is the symbol of the Feast of Tabernacles to the unbelieving Jews, because they only have the Old Testament.  As of right now, they still wouldn't understand the symbolism and would do the rituals from Numbers, but we know better.  They will still be practicing these things for roughly half of the seven years, we will not.  When the Jewish people that are part of His elect see what Daniel spoke of, and what they were warned of through the prophets, they will flee.  It is through the Old Testament prophets that they will begin to understand.  They will understand that they missed His first coming.  Then they will seek their Messiah.

 

Revelation 12 tells us that the woman is out of the serpent's reach.  The woman represents the Jewish remnant Zechariah speaks of, those who will seek Him, or part of His elect.  They have 3 1/2 years for this, it is during the final 3 1/2 years because we know that during the first 3 1/2 years they will have their temple.  We see them sealed on their foreheads by God, and we see that they are protected from Satan during this time.  We see that Hosea says they will be taken aside and the Lord will speak to them tenderly, and we see this same event in Isaiah 65.  The Jews are not the ones getting beheaded during the mark of the beast.

 

What do we know of the group who is getting beheaded?  They keep God's commandments and hold fast to their testimony in Jesus.  That means this group consists of believers, all of them.  We are the only group that fits the description, the New Testament is in our bible, Jesus is our Lord and Savior.  The letter to the church in Smyrna makes it clear they are going nowhere, and that Satan will put some of them in prison and kill them.  They are told not to be afraid of what they are about to suffer.  Not one grievance mentioned by the Lord in regards to this church, and it is a church.  This church is right in the path of the beast, which means this applies to all of the churches.

 

Revelation 13:⁹ Whoever has ears, let them hear.

¹⁰ “If anyone is to go into captivity,

    into captivity they will go.

If anyone is to be killed with the sword,

    with the sword they will be killed.”

This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

 

The reason we see the Lord illustrate in Hosea that He will take back the Jews as His wife, is because they are part of the bride, part of the body.  There is only one bride He is going to marry, and that bride represents all of His sheep.  We mustn't forget that we were grafted in, not the Jews, what you suggest reverses that order.  If there is more than one wedding supper, then there is more than one bride, and that directly contradicts scripture.  So I cannot accept this for that reason.  The marriage supper is symbolic of eternity, I see this in scripture, it is the very centerpiece of that puzzle analogy we discussed earlier, along with all of those things we see attributed to it through New Jerusalem.  All prophecy is symbolic in nature, why would Zechariah be any different?

 

Earlier you had asked specifically about the rain, and we saw that this was attached to Egypt.  Anyway, as I was reading a passage in Revelation 11, this stood out to me, so I wanted to run this by you as well.

 

Revelation 11:⁵ If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. ⁶ They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. ⁷ Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. ⁸ Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

 

In this passage, we see that the two witnesses control the rain at this time, but what I want you to look at is the reference to Sodom and Egypt.  Both of these are well known to most I suspect, and I am sure they are for you.  Egypt we know on account of the ten plagues, and Sodom for the fire from heaven that God destroyed it with.  Both are symbolic of sin and judgement throughout scripture.  They are also brought together in the book of Jude.

 

Jude 1:³ Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. ⁴ For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

 

First Jude begins by warning us that the enemy slipped in among us, which is why I appeal to everyone that they consider where some of these doctrine's of men need to be examined closely.  Particularly any that suggest going back before the cross.

 

Jude 1:⁵ Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. ⁶ And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. ⁷ In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

 

Jude makes this all very clear here in this passage, Egypt serves as an example because we see the exact same plagues they faced in Exodus happening on a global scale in Revelation.  Sodom serves as an example of the coming judgement by fire, and what happens to all those opposed to God in the end.  And later on, he says this about the wicked.

 

Jude 1:¹² These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. ¹³ They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

 

They are clouds without rain.  It would appear to me that the rain Zechariah spoke of is symbolic of the separation between the sheep and the goats.  This also coincides with the timing established by all the other symbolic references.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

[wingnut-]

 

 

 

Jesus said...

 

John 5

²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

²⁹ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

That destroys any idea that the wicked dead are not resurrected on that day of Christ's coming also.

 

 

Exactly salty   This is precisely what Daniel saw as well, and speaks to the millenium only being a day.  A resurrection of the living at the start of the day, and a resurrection of the dead at the conclusion of the day.

 

 

Um... might want to look again, that John 5:28-29 Scripture by our Lord Jesus is not revealing a resurrection of the wicked at the end of Christ's "thousand years" reign. He is declaring that "resurrection of damnation" on the day of His return, which is also the day He gathers His Church. If you hold to man's pre-trib rapture theory, I suspect you'll probably continue to disregard that John 5:28-29 Scripture as others do here.

 

 

I don't hold to a pre-trib theory, and that scripture aligns with precisely what I see.  If I understood some of your previous posts correctly, where we differ appears to be the length of the millenium, and whether or not there is a new heaven and new earth.  I don't disregard any scripture.

 

I do disagree that this is not at the end of the millenium, in fact, if you look at what it says specifically, you see this is the resurrection of the rest of the dead John speaks of in Revelation 20.  They will be judged on, "what they have done."  These are those who died outside His grace, both groups, which we see illustrated in the parables from Matthew 25.

 

 

God bless you.

[Marilyn C]

Hi wingnut,

Thanks for all the detail.

 

What I mean of course, is that we see specifically in Revelation where God is with us, and we see that exact symbolic reference at the conclusion of Zechariah and you don't want to connect them together. Along with the the horses and kitchen pottery, plus the living water, all of which point to New Jerusalem per Revelation, this is pretty concrete evidence.`

 

I do see the connection, wingnut however I see Zech. 14 as a foretaste in time, Millennium before the New heavens & New Earth with the New Jerusalem. Do you see that Zech. says that the waters flow to the sea. (Zech. 14: 8) However in the New Jerusalem we see that there is NO SEA. (Rev.21: 1) There are other differences also –

 

Zechariah 14.

 

- Waters to the sea. (Zech. 14: 8)
- Plague upon those who do not go up to Jerusalem. (Zech. 14: 17 & 18)
- Sacrifices to learn of what Christ`s sacrifice meant – a life for a life. (Zech. 14: 21)

 

Revelation 21 & 22.

 

- No sea. (Rev. 21: 1)
- No death, pain, sorrow, crying. (Rev. 21: 4)
- No sacrifices as the Lord is the Temple. (Rev. 21: 22)

 

Probably best to deal with those points before we go on. Marilyn.




 

Edited January 6, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Salty]

Hi wingnut,

Thanks for all the detail.

 

What I mean of course, is that we see specifically in Revelation where God is with us, and we see that exact symbolic reference at the conclusion of Zechariah and you don't want to connect them together. Along with the the horses and kitchen pottery, plus the living water, all of which point to New Jerusalem per Revelation, this is pretty concrete evidence.`

 

I do see the connection, wingnut however I see Zech. 14 as a foretaste in time, Millennium before the New heavens & New Earth with the New Jerusalem. Do you see that Zech. says that the waters flow to the sea. (Zech. 14: 8) However in the New Jerusalem we see that there is NO SEA. (Rev.21: 1) There are other differences also –

 

Zechariah 14.

 

- Waters to the sea. (Zech. 14: 8)

- Plague upon those who do not go up to Jerusalem. (Zech. 14: 17 & 18)

- Sacrifices to learn of what Christ`s sacrifice meant – a life for a life. (Zech. 14: 21)

 

Revelation 21 & 22.

 

- No sea. (Rev. 21: 1)

- No death, pain, sorrow, crying. (Rev. 21: 4)

- No sacrifices as the Lord is the Temple. (Rev. 21: 22)

 

Probably best to deal with those points before we go on. Marilyn.

 

 

Within Ezekiel 47 we are shown God's River flowing out from that temple sanctuary on earth, and feeding other waters on the earth, specific locales on earth given with it, and also a description of the tree of life on earth side of that River. That is... the River like was in Genesis 2 that flowed out from His Garden of Eden back then on earth, and then it fed four other rivers on the earth, two of them that can still be found on earth today (Euphrates and Tigris).

 

Thusly, that Ezekiel 47 example reveals a 'temple' on earth (God's House) where Jerusalem is today, with God's River and the tree of life, so we should easily know that is Christ's Millennial reign timing, since there is no more temple with the new heavens and a new earth. I mean, this is really easy.

 

Therefore, your use of Zech.14 and Rev.21 & 22 with completely leaving the Ezekiel 47 matter out shows what??

[wingnut-]

Hi wingnut,

Thanks for all the detail.

 

What I mean of course, is that we see specifically in Revelation where God is with us, and we see that exact symbolic reference at the conclusion of Zechariah and you don't want to connect them together. Along with the the horses and kitchen pottery, plus the living water, all of which point to New Jerusalem per Revelation, this is pretty concrete evidence.`

 

I do see the connection, wingnut however I see Zech. 14 as a foretaste in time, Millennium before the New heavens & New Earth with the New Jerusalem. Do you see that Zech. says that the waters flow to the sea. (Zech. 14: 8) However in the New Jerusalem we see that there is NO SEA. (Rev.21: 1) There are other differences also –

 

Zechariah 14.

 

- Waters to the sea. (Zech. 14: 8)

- Plague upon those who do not go up to Jerusalem. (Zech. 14: 17 & 18)

- Sacrifices to learn of what Christ`s sacrifice meant – a life for a life. (Zech. 14: 21)

 

Revelation 21 & 22.

 

- No sea. (Rev. 21: 1)

- No death, pain, sorrow, crying. (Rev. 21: 4)

- No sacrifices as the Lord is the Temple. (Rev. 21: 22)

 

Probably best to deal with those points before we go on. Marilyn.

 

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

I don't see the sea as being literal in Zechariah, and the reason for that is because I think the detail here is about the division applied in chapter 14, everything is in half.  First, look at what was said at the conclusion of chapter 13.

 

Zechariah 13:⁸ In the whole land,” declares the Lord,

    “two-thirds will be struck down and perish;

    yet one-third will be left in it.

⁹ This third I will put into the fire;

    I will refine them like silver

    and test them like gold.

They will call on my name

    and I will answer them;

I will say, ‘They are my people,’

    and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’”

 

In the above passage, Zechariah says that only one third will be left, this is the remnant spoken of by Isaiah and later recalled by Paul in Romans.  In chapter 14, which follows the above, we see this.

 

Zechariah 14:²   I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

 

Only one of the above can be true, the other is a symbolic reference, and not literal.  The reason I conclude that Zechariah is providing the symbolic reference in regards to the halves.  Zechariah continues to refer to divisions in halves throughout chapter 14, the mountain is split in half, and the living water is split in half.  Everything in chapter 14 is in half, this to me is a clear indication that the half is symbolic in nature.  I have no doubt the mount of Olives is literally going to fall, we see that in Revelation, and I suspect this coincides with the great earthquake that will hit Jerusalem.  I also understand from scripture that this is where Jesus will set down, just as He said, which was confirmation of what Zechariah said.

 

Of course, the Jews don't know what Jesus said, because they don't accept the New Testament, only we do.  I'm not sure what you see when you read Zechariah, so I'll tell you a few things I see, and then you can respond.  Zechariah reveals in the prophetic passages events that are from Revelation, for example, chapter 4 is in regards to the two witnesses.  Chapter 5 is discussing events from Revelation as well, as does chapter 6.  In other words, throughout the entire book, Zechariah includes two basic lines of prophecies.  One that points the Jews to the true identity of their Messiah, and one that discusses the end times and the events John would describe in greater detail.  The key thing to remember is, that the Jews do not recognize who Jesus is, and they do not have the book of Revelation.  The Lord gives them what they need, and when the time comes, they will begin to put this together based on their holy book, not ours.  However, they are given different instructions than we are.  They are told to flee, while we are told to stand.  The reason is simple, they are still seeking Him, we are not.

 

The second thing you pointed to in Zechariah was the plague.  The plague is not that difficult to understand, those who end up as the goats receive an eternal plague, for not coming to Him.

 

The third thing you pointed to in Zechariah, is really at the heart of why I cannot accept what you present, I'll post the comment below and then respond.

 

Sacrifices to learn of what Christ`s sacrifice meant – a life for a life. (Zech. 14: 21)

 

 

First, I would say Christ's sacrifice was not a life for a life, it was His life for all lives.  This was the bridge to connect the divide from God, the defeat of sin, the conquering of death.

Second, I would say I don't need to kill and burn a bunch of animals to learn what His sacrifice meant.  I never have to this point, have you?  Just present this idea to the Holy Spirit within you, ask Him if He feels like killing and burning some animals.  I am certain that the notion will be rejected.

 

This goes hand in hand with the idea that there is any vulnerability in Jesus.  You suggested that the enemy can invade His city, during His reign, and take half of His people.  Your reasoning was because Jesus will be in heaven.  Even if I agreed with you that He was reigning from heaven, does that matter?  He knows all, including the thoughts clattering about in the minds of the wicked.  There is no such thing as a "sneak attack" on the Lord, He knows the end from the beginning.  There is absolutely nothing in scripture to support the idea that the Lord has a vulnerability.  This entire line of thinking is flawed when you apply what you already know, the enemy cannot touch Him.

 

Even when He came as a man, the enemy could not touch Him.  He gave His life willingly, they could not take even His natural life if He had not been willing to lay it down.  No one killed Him, He sacrificed Himself, for everyone.  He told us this Himself.  No plan and no enemy will ever succeed in any assault on Him or His kingdom.  Asking me to believe this is plausible is essentially telling me that everything I believe in is false, and I know better, and I know you do as well.  Again, I want to reiterate that I am responding to how I understand what you are presenting, and the problems I see with it scripturally.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

[wingnut-]

 

Within Ezekiel 47 we are shown God's River flowing out from that temple sanctuary on earth, and feeding other waters on the earth, specific locales on earth given with it, and also a description of the tree of life on earth side of that River. That is... the River like was in Genesis 2 that flowed out from His Garden of Eden back then on earth, and then it fed four other rivers on the earth, two of them that can still be found on earth today (Euphrates and Tigris).

 

Thusly, that Ezekiel 47 example reveals a 'temple' on earth (God's House) where Jerusalem is today, with God's River and the tree of life, so we should easily know that is Christ's Millennial reign timing, since there is no more temple with the new heavens and a new earth. I mean, this is really easy.

 

Therefore, your use of Zech.14 and Rev.21 & 22 with completely leaving the Ezekiel 47 matter out shows what??

 

 

Hello salty,

 

If you were referring to me, I am not leaving this out, it just hadn't entered the discussion Marilyn and I were having.  What Ezekiel writes in chapter 47 is symbolic as well.  First off, we see the symbolic tie to the Garden of Eden and the creation account from Genesis.  This was a time before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.  The illustration here is to show that this is how eternity will be, only what is to come is imperishable.

 

The temple spoken of is clarified in Revelation, the Lord will be our temple, and from Him the living water flows.  What is illustrated is all the life that flourishes because of this living water.  The living water does not come until New Jerusalem, and neither does the tree of life.

 

God bless you.