Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[wingnut-]

Hi wingnut,

 

A quick reply before we get on to the solar system.

 

Now you said - `When we are given symbols, they don't change, God does not change.` I agree but only when God tells us what they are. According to you , I think we would have a `lion` only as Jesus, whereas it is used for Satan & earthly powers.

 

Yes the Song of Solomon is a picture, but as you said -  `In verse 11 she is told the fragrance of her garments are like that of Lebanon, is this literal as well? In verse 4 she is told that her neck is like the tower of David, built with elegance and having thousand of shields hung on it, is this literal?` However have you noted the word `like,` for that is the language of a symbol. Something is `like` something else. We do not see those words `as, like` etc in Zech. 14. We cannot just pick & choose what we want to make symbols & that is what you are doing, friend.

 

Seriously, think honestly about this, bro. Marilyn.

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

First in regards to the lion comment.  Jesus is never symbolically referred to as a lion, He is referred to as the Lion of Judah, that is a big difference.  Second, in the very passage of Song of Solomon we are discussing, it is established that Lebanon is symbolic because of the use of the word "like" as you pointed out.  That continues through the entire passage, including the reference in verse 15, because it has already been repeatedly established prior to this point.

 

The living water is the same thing, Jesus clearly defines the meaning of it for us through His own mouth.  We don't have to go back and repeat the earlier lesson, because we have already learned it.  Once a symbol is clearly defined this is not necessary.  So let's take what you are saying and apply it across the board, perhaps you can explain this to me.

 

Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

 

In this verse here, we see your key word, yet you say He already came.  Can you explain that?

 

As I said before, I am not picking and choosing these symbols, they are given to us, and I see them for what they are.  I look forward to your response as always, God bless you.

[Marilyn C]

Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

 

In this verse here, we see your key word, yet you say He already came.  Can you explain that?

Hi wingnut,

 

Not sure what you mean here. Could you explain a bit more, please. `Yet you say He already came?` I`m not understanding your point, bro.

 

 

Marilyn.

[wingnut-]

 

Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

 

In this verse here, we see your key word, yet you say He already came.  Can you explain that?

Hi wingnut,

 

Not sure what you mean here. Could you explain a bit more, please. `Yet you say He already came?` I`m not understanding your point, bro.

 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

This verse appears after the 6th bowl is poured out.  The symbol of the thief is given, the very symbol Jesus uses with the imagery of two being in the field, one taken and the other left.  The word like is in there as well, clarifying the use of the symbol.  This is just before the kings are gathered together for the final battle.  Using your own criteria, you would have to place the rapture here, correct?

[Marilyn C]

 

 

Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

 

In this verse here, we see your key word, yet you say He already came.  Can you explain that?

Hi wingnut,

 

Not sure what you mean here. Could you explain a bit more, please. `Yet you say He already came?` I`m not understanding your point, bro.

 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

This verse appears after the 6th bowl is poured out.  The symbol of the thief is given, the very symbol Jesus uses with the imagery of two being in the field, one taken and the other left.  The word like is in there as well, clarifying the use of the symbol.  This is just before the kings are gathered together for the final battle.  Using your own criteria, you would have to place the rapture here, correct?

 

 

Hi wingnut,

 

Good connecting there, bro. Those scriptures do show `like a thief` & `one taken ` etc. However that is not for the Body of Christ for the Lord does not come to us as a thief.

 

`Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, & you will not know what hour I will come upon you.` (Rev. 3: 3)

 

`But you, brethren are not in darkness, so that this day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

 

 

Isn`t that a wonderful promise there, wingnut. Marilyn.

[wingnut-]

Wingnut and Marilyn

Regarding your discussions on living waters you both are actually correct on it being literal water flowing out and symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

To help i would suggest research in Simkhat Beit Hashoavah which was a ceremony within the feast of tabernacles. Secondly there is biblical and historical eyewitnesses who can attest to there being water flowing out of the Temple and out of Jerusalem at the time. Further I would suggest research on the spring of Siloam. After all flowing water was a necessity for sacrifices.

@wingnut

Regarding the 1000yrs...If you don't mind me asking your question with a question, what do you know about the feast of tabernacles?

If a 1000 yrs is a day, what's a day or a 1000 days to someone who is immortal?

 

Hello InChrist,

 

No, I don't mind you asking me questions.  I know what scripture says about the feast of tabernacles, and then of course when I went to Liberty we studied all sorts of things.

 

As for a day or a thousand years, either would be a blink to the eternal.

 

God bless you.

[wingnut-]

 

 

 

Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

 

In this verse here, we see your key word, yet you say He already came.  Can you explain that?

Hi wingnut,

 

Not sure what you mean here. Could you explain a bit more, please. `Yet you say He already came?` I`m not understanding your point, bro.

 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

This verse appears after the 6th bowl is poured out.  The symbol of the thief is given, the very symbol Jesus uses with the imagery of two being in the field, one taken and the other left.  The word like is in there as well, clarifying the use of the symbol.  This is just before the kings are gathered together for the final battle.  Using your own criteria, you would have to place the rapture here, correct?

 

 

Hi wingnut,

 

Good connecting there, bro. Those scriptures do show `like a thief` & `one taken ` etc. However that is not for the Body of Christ for the Lord does not come to us as a thief.

 

`Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, & you will not know what hour I will come upon you.` (Rev. 3: 3)

 

`But you, brethren are not in darkness, so that this day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

 

 

Isn`t that a wonderful promise there, wingnut. Marilyn.

 

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

Considering the imagery is of the rapture, how do you deduce this doesn't involve the church?

 

I think what Paul is saying there is to recognize the signs given, so we are not surprised.  Keeping in mind that this letter is to the church, He says, If you won't watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you won't recognize it.  So how do we recognize when He is coming?  By the signs He gave us, correct?  Which is why Paul goes on to write, but you are not in darkness, so you won't be surprised.  They won't be surprised because he tells them the signs to look for, the thief is one of those signs.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

[Marilyn C]

Wingnut and Marilyn

Regarding your discussions on living waters you both are actually correct on it being literal water flowing out and symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

To help i would suggest research in Simkhat Beit Hashoavah which was a ceremony within the feast of tabernacles. Secondly there is biblical and historical eyewitnesses who can attest to there being water flowing out of the Temple and out of Jerusalem at the time. Further I would suggest research on the spring of Siloam. After all flowing water was a necessity for sacrifices.

Hi inchrist,

 

Yes I believe that the `living waters` are fresh waters on earth (Zech. 14:8) but are symbolic `living waters` in heaven, from the throne. (Rev. 22: 1) And yes I remember that the feast of tabernacles was when the Lord spoke of this `living water` the Holy Spirit, to the people. That feast lasts quite a few days, ay - 7 days in makeshift shelters, reminding them of their journey in the wilderness, & looking forward to the time when God would again dwell with His people.

 

We, howevera are a blessed people now, the Body of Christ as we already have the Holy Spirit within us, guiding us  & making us like Christ.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

 

 

 

 

Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

 

In this verse here, we see your key word, yet you say He already came.  Can you explain that?

Hi wingnut,

 

Not sure what you mean here. Could you explain a bit more, please. `Yet you say He already came?` I`m not understanding your point, bro.

 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

This verse appears after the 6th bowl is poured out.  The symbol of the thief is given, the very symbol Jesus uses with the imagery of two being in the field, one taken and the other left.  The word like is in there as well, clarifying the use of the symbol.  This is just before the kings are gathered together for the final battle.  Using your own criteria, you would have to place the rapture here, correct?

 

 

Hi wingnut,

 

Good connecting there, bro. Those scriptures do show `like a thief` & `one taken ` etc. However that is not for the Body of Christ for the Lord does not come to us as a thief.

 

`Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, & you will not know what hour I will come upon you.` (Rev. 3: 3)

 

`But you, brethren are not in darkness, so that this day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

 

 

Isn`t that a wonderful promise there, wingnut. Marilyn.

 

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

Considering the imagery is of the rapture, how do you deduce this doesn't involve the church?

 

I think what Paul is saying there is to recognize the signs given, so we are not surprised.  Keeping in mind that this letter is to the church, He says, If you won't watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you won't recognize it.  So how do we recognize when He is coming?  By the signs He gave us, correct?  Which is why Paul goes on to write, but you are not in darkness, so you won't be surprised.  They won't be surprised because he tells them the signs to look for, the thief is one of those signs.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

 

Good thoughtful questions there wingnut.

 

Yes the signs we are given.

 

....`exhorting one another, & so much more as you see the day approaching.`  (Heb.10: 25)

 

Here we see that the believers are to come together more (in every day life) & encourage & exhort each other for life will be very difficult, evil getting worse & worse, wars, earthquakes, etc etc. We know those signs for what will (& is) happening in the world, & yet there are signs especially for the Body of Christ. These are -

 

1. The Lukewarm, rich with goods etc form of godliness, so called believers. (Rev. 3: 14 - 19    1 Tim. 4: 1 - 3    2 Tim. 3: 1 - 7)

 

2. The unity of the faith.

 

`....till we all come to the unity of the Faith & the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 13)

 

Another wonderful promise, ay wingnut. Marilyn.

[Salty]

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

Thank you for the scripture, it is a nice piece to the puzzle.  If you or anyone else can think of any others, it would be most helpful.  I am beginning to review all of the prophecies again with this in mind, I think there is another piece or two to be found.  Obviously, Daniel mentions additional days being added, so the question really becomes when that will take place.  The passage from Isaiah 24 appears to speak toward this, but from the way I understand it this would appear to be in regards to the judgement of the angels, and the judgement of the dead.  Keep in mind what Jude said regarding the fallen angels.

 

Jude 1:⁶ And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

 

Jude seems to indicate here that the fallen angels are already bound, which would speak to the passing of time before they face judgement.  We already know from scripture that people outside of His grace go to a place where they still have concerns for the living.  I think this is what we see referred to as Hades.  The point is, many people have been waiting there for some time now, and it appears the fallen angels other than Satan have been waiting as well.

 

Salty:  I pretty much agree with that judgment of Satan's angels, but not really on the timing. Right now for me it's a toss-up between the Day of The Lord with Christ's coming or the later Great White Throne Judgment after the "thousand years. Remember that per Rev.12:7 forward, Satan and his angels are to be cast down to this earth with those on earth given a huge 'woe', because the devil knows he has a short time, and then tribulation events given along with it. So I believe his angels with him are going to be here on earth for the tribulation, which might actually be the 7,000 that perish on the 7th trumpet of Rev.11 when Jesus comes.

 

However, when we look at all of Matthew 25 alongside all the other scripture which speaks of the judging, it appears to me that this, along with the rewarding of the prophets and then the saints would appear to account for the additional time in Daniel.  In the 6th trumpet judgement, we see 200 million mounted troops carrying it out, that is a lot of angels, and still not all of them.  Originally one third of the angels went with Satan, so we are talking about a large number.  We are also talking about a large number of people outside His grace, before Jesus, and since.  We also see that the group who will be rewarded is a large multitude.

 

Salty:  I believe the 1290 and 1335 days are about the cleansing, and your Matt.25 reference that will begin when Jesus takes His reign upon David's throne on earth, His sheep He separates on His right hand being His Church that includes the foundation of Eph.2 and only those who have remained faithful to Him up to that time. Those of His Church that fell away will be joined with the 'goats' on His left hand, and walk spiritually naked in shame (Rev.16:15).

 

Something you wrote there I cannot agree with, and it is that 200 million troops idea of Rev.9. That's actually referring to the locust prophecy from the Book of Joel, the locust army that God called His army that He sends, like for a punishment upon the earth. That timing of the 6th trumpet is actually tribulation timing, not Armageddon. I do not see that as a literal military army because of the Joel prophecy. Instead, I see them as being about Satan's host on earth working to set him up in power as king in Jerusalem during the tribulation timing, which flows all the way to Rev.11:14.

 

The other thing is that even in heavily symbolic sections of God's Word, when a specific time amount is given, and no instruction to go with it to show that it is symbolic, then it is to be taken literally; and that whether it's written in Revelation or any other Book. Ezekiel 4:5 is clear that the days he was given to show were symbolic of years. Doesn't mean to apply that formula in Ezek.4 anywhere else unless specifically mentioned. In Daniel 9 even the sevens represent literal time periods.

 

 

I agree with you in a sense, but then there are clear circumstances that this is not the case as well.  Take Daniel's seventy weeks as one example, the clarification of the time frame comes from understanding that 483 years of this were fulfilled when Jesus rode into Jerusalem.  Without that, we would not understand that the reference in Daniel was to years instead of weeks.  So I have to disagree that the time is always specified, just like when we read from the prophets they consistently use the phrase, "in that day" or "on that day", and are not always speaking to a literal day, but to a general time frame, like the end times as one example.  Most of the time frames we do understand is not because it was specified literally, but because we understand the prophecy as being fulfilled.

 

Salty:  I somewhat agree, but within Daniel we are given the formula for interpreting those 70 weeks (or sevens) time period by the event markers, like the restoring of Jerusalem and the time of Christ's first coming. So only when we are given a formula with timelined prophecy like that should we apply things like that. For example, some denominations try to apply Ezekiel's day for a year formula to the 2300 days in Rev.12, when no such formula is given there to interpret it that way. Thus the 2300 days has to mean what it says, 2300 days, not 2300 years.

 

 

I agree with you that Revelation is not the only book written symbolically, all prophecy is symbolic in nature.  What makes Revelation unique is that it is much thicker with symbolism, in most of the stories every character is a symbolic reference, and is broken into more details than other prophecies.  I think it is this way because of the circumstances under which it was written.  I actually have the companion bible you are referring to, it was originally my dad's, and after his passing it came to me.  It continues to get a lot of use.

 

Salty:  I don't know, there's a whole lot of symbolism and allegory in the OT prophets, and I've found most of the symbols and allegory given in our Lord's Revelation originates from those OT Books.

 

[Salty]

 

Hi wingnut,

Let`s see if we can work through some of this. This scripture actually says `God`s dwelling place is now among the people.` It is a `dwelling place.` it is not God the Father who has left His eternal abode in the highest heavens, but a dwelling place that has been made holy for His presence to be there. Remember the `Holy of Holies,` where God`s presence dwelt with Israel. Also from King Solomon -

`But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven & the heaven of heavens cannot contain you. How much less this temple which I have built!` (1 Kings 8: 27)

 

 

 

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

I would say that it is not just a dwelling place, it is God's dwelling place, and that comes straight from His mouth.  He also says that this dwelling place is coming down, with Him, at the ushering in of a new age.  In this instance, we see what the intent was all along, referring to the Holy of Holies.

 

Now to the `living water` in the New Jerusalem. We know that this `dwelling place` comes down from heaven. It has been made in heaven of things eternal, & not of the earth where things are transient. We see, gold, precious stones, trees, water, etc so all these are symbolic of what is eternal. I will just focus on the `living water.` Jesus Himself tells us what this water is that will quench all our thirst.

 

`Jesus answered & said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water (in the well) will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.` (John 4: 14)

 

`Jesus stood & cried out, saying, “If anyone thirst, let him come to me & drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.` (John 8: 38 & 39)

 

And as you so rightly said that the living water cannot be available to those who suffer the second death. The everlasting life of Christ by the Holy Spirit is available to those in God`s dwelling place with man that will come down from heaven.

 

 

Ok, so here is the problem with the living water in conjunction with what you present.  For starters, we see that the water on this earth will be struck and become undrinkable, turned to blood.  Zechariah says that in this time he is speaking about, living water will come.  As you present it, this living water will cleanse the bad water, and provide the earth with drinkable water again for this thousand year period.  This means that everyone who resides on this planet for your thousand year period will be drinking that living water.  God says they cannot.  Living water is only for believers, and we know that at the end of the millenium there are wicked people that rise up for one last stand.  They could not survive a thousand years without water, and they cannot drink the living water.

 

However in Zechariah 14 we also see living waters, but these are not symbolic but are fresh, renewing waters from Jerusalem flowing out to the eastern & western seas. This is to renew the earth after it has become polluted. This is in the Millennium from the earthly Jerusalem which will be raised up & inhabited again after the war.

 

 

The symbolism of the living water is consistent throughout scripture, including the passages you bring into the discussion.  We both agree that it is only for believers, so what you present is not possible.  If Zechariah was referring to fresh water, he would have said fresh water, but he does not, he says living water, and that is symbolic.  There are no mistakes in scripture.  Essentially, your argument here is no different than if I were to say, the Lamb of God is a symbolic reference to Jesus any time you see it in scripture, except for this one place.  That is inconsistent, and it is done to support a doctrine that is clearly flawed.  If the symbols are being changed, then the truth is lost, so I cannot accept what you present for this reason.

 

I also think it is odd that an entire belief of a literal thousand year period comes from one single book of the bible, not at all taking into account that the only place a thousand years is mentioned is in that one book.  The prophets do not speak of it in this light at all, their writings refer to it as a day, yet this seems to be irrelevant, and people want to run with a thousand years.  For this to be true, scripture would reveal this thousand years in some other book or prophecy, we would find that confirmation elsewhere, but we do not.

 

I look forward to your response as always, God bless you.

 

 

Then should you consider the Living Waters reference for His elect actually referring to the eventual new heavens and a new time, because after the thousand years the wicked will not have right to it?

 

I very much believe the waters of Ezek.47 are for the Millennial timing. I do not believe that all waters on the earth will be healed in that Millennial time though:

 

Ezek.47

⁹ And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

¹⁰ And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

¹¹ But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.