Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[wingnut-]

 

Good thoughtful questions there wingnut.

 

Yes the signs we are given.

 

....`exhorting one another, & so much more as you see the day approaching.`  (Heb.10: 25)

 

Here we see that the believers are to come together more (in every day life) & encourage & exhort each other for life will be very difficult, evil getting worse & worse, wars, earthquakes, etc etc. We know those signs for what will (& is) happening in the world, & yet there are signs especially for the Body of Christ. These are -

 

1. The Lukewarm, rich with goods etc form of godliness, so called believers. (Rev. 3: 14 - 19    1 Tim. 4: 1 - 3    2 Tim. 3: 1 - 7)

 

2. The unity of the faith.

 

`....till we all come to the unity of the Faith & the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 13)

 

Another wonderful promise, ay wingnut. Marilyn.

 

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

Yes, all of His promises are wonderful.  However, the scripture you offer above are not symbols, for the most part they are instructions.  I'm not sure that answers my questions though lol.  Now you have accused me of picking and choosing symbols, but it appears you are sidestepping the inconsistency in your approach with regards to this one.  It contains all your requirements, so I am eager to hear an explanation on that one.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

[wingnut-]

 

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

I'll start from the top and work my way down.

 

Salty:  I pretty much agree with that judgment of Satan's angels, but not really on the timing. Right now for me it's a toss-up between the Day of The Lord with Christ's coming or the later Great White Throne Judgment after the "thousand years. Remember that per Rev.12:7 forward, Satan and his angels are to be cast down to this earth with those on earth given a huge 'woe', because the devil knows he has a short time, and then tribulation events given along with it. So I believe his angels with him are going to be here on earth for the tribulation, which might actually be the 7,000 that perish on the 7th trumpet of Rev.11 when Jesus comes.

 

 

The timing is definitely the issue, and I agree with you that Satan and his angels are cast down in Revelation 12.  The question is, are they bound at that time.  It doesn't appear that they are involved much with what is happening, even when the enemy begins to gather the nations for war, it is done by spirits coming from the unholy trinity.  I also would offer this for your consideration regarding the angels perishing in battle.  They are spiritual beings, eternal beings, so there is no natural death for them, which would explain why they are bound.  Basically though, they can only suffer the second death, spiritual death.

 

Salty:  I believe the 1290 and 1335 days are about the cleansing, and your Matt.25 reference that will begin when Jesus takes His reign upon David's throne on earth, His sheep He separates on His right hand being His Church that includes the foundation of Eph.2 and only those who have remained faithful to Him up to that time. Those of His Church that fell away will be joined with the 'goats' on His left hand, and walk spiritually naked in shame (Rev.16:15).

 

 

Obviously we see this differently because of our view on the millenium, but I understand what you are presenting.  You may well be right, but with the scripture we have to this point in regards to the millenium, I am still of the impression that the length of time is more likely a day.

 

Something you wrote there I cannot agree with, and it is that 200 million troops idea of Rev.9. That's actually referring to the locust prophecy from the Book of Joel, the locust army that God called His army that He sends, like for a punishment upon the earth. That timing of the 6th trumpet is actually tribulation timing, not Armageddon. I do not see that as a literal military army because of the Joel prophecy. Instead, I see them as being about Satan's host on earth working to set him up in power as king in Jerusalem during the tribulation timing, which flows all the way to Rev.11:14.

 

 

I'm not clear on what you are saying here exactly.  Do you think the 200 million troops are the enemy?  I agree with you that this is not Armageddon, that battle comes at the end of the millenium.  However, I do see this as the battle where the beast and the false prophet are disposed of, and Satan is bound up.

 

Salty:  I somewhat agree, but within Daniel we are given the formula for interpreting those 70 weeks (or sevens) time period by the event markers, like the restoring of Jerusalem and the time of Christ's first coming. So only when we are given a formula with timelined prophecy like that should we apply things like that. For example, some denominations try to apply Ezekiel's day for a year formula to the 2300 days in Rev.12, when no such formula is given there to interpret it that way. Thus the 2300 days has to mean what it says, 2300 days, not 2300 years.

 

 

I think we are actually in agreement on this, I'm just not explaining myself very well lol.  I agree with what you say above, the key with understanding the timeline comes because of the event markers we see given that were fulfilled.  And I agree that we cannot take timelines established in one place and try to use them in another place where they do not belong.  If they belong, there will always be an indication of that.

 

Salty:  I don't know, there's a whole lot of symbolism and allegory in the OT prophets, and I've found most of the symbols and allegory given in our Lord's Revelation originates from those OT Books.

 

 

 

I agree with you here as well, the Old Testament is full of all sorts of applicable information, and is also rich with symbolism and allegory directly related to the end times.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

[Marilyn C]

 

Hi wingnut,

 

A quick reply before we get on to the solar system.

 

Now you said - `When we are given symbols, they don't change, God does not change.` I agree but only when God tells us what they are. According to you , I think we would have a `lion` only as Jesus, whereas it is used for Satan & earthly powers.

 

Yes the Song of Solomon is a picture, but as you said -  `In verse 11 she is told the fragrance of her garments are like that of Lebanon, is this literal as well? In verse 4 she is told that her neck is like the tower of David, built with elegance and having thousand of shields hung on it, is this literal?` However have you noted the word `like,` for that is the language of a symbol. Something is `like` something else. We do not see those words `as, like` etc in Zech. 14. We cannot just pick & choose what we want to make symbols & that is what you are doing, friend.

 

Seriously, think honestly about this, bro. Marilyn.

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

First in regards to the lion comment.  Jesus is never symbolically referred to as a lion, He is referred to as the Lion of Judah, that is a big difference.  Second, in the very passage of Song of Solomon we are discussing, it is established that Lebanon is symbolic because of the use of the word "like" as you pointed out.  That continues through the entire passage, including the reference in verse 15, because it has already been repeatedly established prior to this point.

 

The living water is the same thing, Jesus clearly defines the meaning of it for us through His own mouth.  We don't have to go back and repeat the earlier lesson, because we have already learned it.  Once a symbol is clearly defined this is not necessary.  So let's take what you are saying and apply it across the board, perhaps you can explain this to me.

 

Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

 

In this verse here, we see your key word, yet you say He already came.  Can you explain that?

 

As I said before, I am not picking and choosing these symbols, they are given to us, and I see them for what they are.  I look forward to your response as always, God bless you.

 

Hi wingnut,

 

Yes we did get side tracked.  Now the word `like` is used specifically for each phrase -

 

`Your hair is like a flock of goats going down from Mount Gilead,`

`Your teeth are like a flock of shorn sheep...`

`Your lips are like a strand of scarlet..`   (S.of S. 4: 1 - 3)

 

Each part of the description has a `like,` so we know what is meant. The word `like` does not cover a whole number of things but just what is mentioned in the phrase.  Thus when we get to the living/fresh waters & streams from Lebanon,` they are all literal in a garden that he is describing, a picture of his beloved. The picture is symbolic but the details of that picture are literal.

 

eg. the flock of goats going down from Mount Gilead, are literal things but Solomon is using them to show something of the hair.

 

When we get to Zech 14. we do not see such descriptions of `like or as or similar to,` etc. Thus it is a literal picture without any reference to being like something else.

 

Marilyn.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Salty]

 

 

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

I'll start from the top and work my way down.

 

Salty:  I pretty much agree with that judgment of Satan's angels, but not really on the timing. Right now for me it's a toss-up between the Day of The Lord with Christ's coming or the later Great White Throne Judgment after the "thousand years. Remember that per Rev.12:7 forward, Satan and his angels are to be cast down to this earth with those on earth given a huge 'woe', because the devil knows he has a short time, and then tribulation events given along with it. So I believe his angels with him are going to be here on earth for the tribulation, which might actually be the 7,000 that perish on the 7th trumpet of Rev.11 when Jesus comes.

 

 

The timing is definitely the issue, and I agree with you that Satan and his angels are cast down in Revelation 12.  The question is, are they bound at that time.  It doesn't appear that they are involved much with what is happening, even when the enemy begins to gather the nations for war, it is done by spirits coming from the unholy trinity.  I also would offer this for your consideration regarding the angels perishing in battle.  They are spiritual beings, eternal beings, so there is no natural death for them, which would explain why they are bound.  Basically though, they can only suffer the second death, spiritual death.

 

Salty:  but recall Rev.20:9-10 when Satan is actually cast into the lake of fire, and those who follow him up against the "camp of saints" are then destroyed too. That event is prior to the "second death" into the "lake of fire" event after God's Great White Throne Judgment.

 

Furthermore, on the Day of The Lord (when our Lord Jesus comes), God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off this earth (2 Pet.3:10), along with some of the wicked (per the "plague" in Zech.14). Thus I believe in a probability of the 7,000 of Rev.11 being about Satan's angels on earth. But I'm not solid on that idea though. I just don't see our Heavenly Father having to wait. Either way, we know they will be destroyed.

 

 

 

Salty:  I believe the 1290 and 1335 days are about the cleansing, and your Matt.25 reference that will begin when Jesus takes His reign upon David's throne on earth, His sheep He separates on His right hand being His Church that includes the foundation of Eph.2 and only those who have remained faithful to Him up to that time. Those of His Church that fell away will be joined with the 'goats' on His left hand, and walk spiritually naked in shame (Rev.16:15).

 

 

Obviously we see this differently because of our view on the millenium, but I understand what you are presenting.  You may well be right, but with the scripture we have to this point in regards to the millenium, I am still of the impression that the length of time is more likely a day.

 

Salty:  you mean the "thousand years" of Rev.20 to you is more like one literal day, instead of a literal thousand year period? If that's what you mean, I cannot agree with that.

 

 

Something you wrote there I cannot agree with, and it is that 200 million troops idea of Rev.9. That's actually referring to the locust prophecy from the Book of Joel, the locust army that God called His army that He sends, like for a punishment upon the earth. That timing of the 6th trumpet is actually tribulation timing, not Armageddon. I do not see that as a literal military army because of the Joel prophecy. Instead, I see them as being about Satan's host on earth working to set him up in power as king in Jerusalem during the tribulation timing, which flows all the way to Rev.11:14.

 

 

I'm not clear on what you are saying here exactly.  Do you think the 200 million troops are the enemy?  I agree with you that this is not Armageddon, that battle comes at the end of the millenium.  However, I do see this as the battle where the beast and the false prophet are disposed of, and Satan is bound up.

 

Salty:  6th trumpet is "great tribulation" timing. That loosing involving Euphrates in Rev.9 is the trib start. The prophecy in Rev.16 that uses Euphrates is a different timing altogether. The specific day, hour, month, year, etc., is about the tribulation period when Antichrist takes literal reign over all the earth from Jerusalem.  This is the high point in the endtime prophecies. The last three trumpet - woe periods are about the prep time (sealing), then tribulation, then our Lord Jesus' coming and our gathering to Him, in that order. That 6th trumpet's events flow all the way up to Rev.11:14 when the 7th trumpet sounds. That's also the 42 months of the dragon's reign, given in parallel to the time when the Gentiles tread the holy city per Rev.11:1-2, and God's two witnesses appear in Jerusalem to prophecy against Satan and his host for 1260 days (equal to that 42 months period).

 

 

 

[wingnut-]

 

Then should you consider the Living Waters reference for His elect actually referring to the eventual new heavens and a new time, because after the thousand years the wicked will not have right to it?

 

I very much believe the waters of Ezek.47 are for the Millennial timing. I do not believe that all waters on the earth will be healed in that Millennial time though:

 

Ezek.47

⁹ And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

¹⁰ And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

¹¹ But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

The living waters is both symbolic and literal.  Symbolically we see it applied to the Holy Spirit, and this is because all believers will inherit this.  At the same time, the river of life is a very literal river that will be part of the New Jerusalem.  This is what believers will inherit, and Jesus is the only way to heaven.  Believers will not face judgement, the living water is already ours in the symbolic sense, and once New Jerusalem comes down we will have it literally.  Non-believers do not have the Holy Spirit, no living water.  They cannot enter the New Jerusalem, no living water.  The only way to get the living water is to believe in Him, it is not for the wicked.  This is why I do not see these things as part of the millenium, but of eternity.  Along with the lack of support for this period being a thousand years.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

[Marilyn C]

Hi wingnut,

 

To understand the Millennium we need to know the purpose of God for that time. I used to think - why doesn`t God just wind everything up after Armageddon, & bring in everlasting peace then. That would be great. But no, God has His purposes & now that I understand them it makes more sense.

 

Marilyn.

[wingnut-]

 

Hi wingnut,

 

Yes we did get side tracked.  Now the word `like` is used specifically for each phrase -

 

`Your hair is like a flock of goats going down from Mount Gilead,`

`Your teeth are like a flock of shorn sheep...`

`Your lips are like a strand of scarlet..`   (S.of S. 4: 1 - 3)

 

Each part of the description has a `like,` so we know what is meant. The word `like` does not cover a whole number of things but just what is mentioned in the phrase.  Thus when we get to the living/fresh waters & streams from Lebanon,` they are all literal in a garden that he is describing, a picture of his beloved. The picture is symbolic but the details of that picture are literal.

 

eg. the flock of goats going down from Mount Gilead, are literal things but Solomon is using them to show something of the hair.

 

When we get to Zech 14. we do not see such descriptions of `like or as or similar to,` etc. Thus it is a literal picture without any reference to being like something else.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

I disagree that all symbols require the use of like, or as, or similar to.  I'll use one of the most obvious examples in scripture, the Lamb of God.  When are we told in scripture that something is like the Lamb of God?  In some cases this is necessary, but not every time we see a symbol.  Maybe if I walk you through how I arrived at my conclusion this will make more sense to you.

 

Let's begin with verse 20.

 

Zechariah 14:²⁰ On that day holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. ²¹ Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty.

 

When do these things become holy?

[Marilyn C]

Hello again Marilyn,

 

I disagree that all symbols require the use of like, or as, or similar to.  I'll use one of the most obvious examples in scripture, the Lamb of God.  When are we told in scripture that something is like the Lamb of God?  In some cases this is necessary, but not every time we see a symbol.  Maybe if I walk you through how I arrived at my conclusion this will make more sense to you.

 

Let's begin with verse 20.

 

Zechariah 14:²⁰ On that day holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. ²¹ Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty.

 

When do these things become holy?

Hi wingnut,

 

Yes it would be good for you to explain how you arrive at your conclusion. Just to answer your question, `When do these things become holy?` These things being  the bells on the horses, the cooking pots in the Lord`s house,& every pot in Jerusalem & Judah. Thus we see that it is only on God`s holy mountain & surrounds that this is. As Isaiah 2  & Micah 4 describe. The time being when the Lord returns in power & great glory to deliver Israel & judge the nations. 

 

Look forward to your comments, wingnut, bro. Marilyn.

[Guest]

I agree, that God has His times to reveal that "mystery" to His people, and actually a lot of the time on an individual basis to those one's called to be an Apostle, and only when they are called (like Apostle Paul's example especially). But that Rev.10 Scripture in relation to His OT prophets and that "mystery" shows us that He gave them to write by The Holy Spirit the events of His Plan of Salvation all the way to the end of this world.

 

So did Apostle Paul give us something new when he was using the word "mystery"? Actually no, because He taught from the OT Scripture when speaking of such matters. The difference is that many were not given to understand what those Scriptures were about yet, especially not until Christ died on the cross. But the info was already written back then, and has been there all along, which is what Rev.10 is revealing (John 5:39). Often now when I study OT Scripture I can see inklings that God made some of His people aware of His Plan early on, especially with Abraham (Heb.11; Gal.3; John 8).

 

 

Hum

 

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

 

Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

 

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Luke 21:24-27

 

Mystery

 

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

 

And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

 

And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

 

And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. Revelation 10:7-8

 

Oh Mystery

 

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:15

 

Who Could Of Guessed?

 

Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel.

 

So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.

 

And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee.

 

Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.

 

And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.

 

For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel;

 

Not to many people of a strange speech and of an hard language, whose words thou canst not understand.

 

Surely, had I sent thee to them, they would have hearkened unto thee.

 

But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me:

 

for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.

 

Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.

 

As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not,

 

neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

 

Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears.

 

And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them,

 

Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear. Ezekiel 3:1-11

 

And All God's Children Cry Out

 

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. Psalms 122:6

 

Save Now LORD, Save Now

 

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;

 

that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,

 

and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:

 

but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:25-29

 

Maranatha~!

[Salty]

 

 

Then should you consider the Living Waters reference for His elect actually referring to the eventual new heavens and a new time, because after the thousand years the wicked will not have right to it?

 

I very much believe the waters of Ezek.47 are for the Millennial timing. I do not believe that all waters on the earth will be healed in that Millennial time though:

 

Ezek.47

⁹ And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

¹⁰ And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

¹¹ But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

The living waters is both symbolic and literal.  Symbolically we see it applied to the Holy Spirit, and this is because all believers will inherit this.  At the same time, the river of life is a very literal river that will be part of the New Jerusalem.  This is what believers will inherit, and Jesus is the only way to heaven.  Believers will not face judgement, the living water is already ours in the symbolic sense, and once New Jerusalem comes down we will have it literally.  Non-believers do not have the Holy Spirit, no living water.  They cannot enter the New Jerusalem, no living water.  The only way to get the living water is to believe in Him, it is not for the wicked.  This is why I do not see these things as part of the millenium, but of eternity.  Along with the lack of support for this period being a thousand years.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

 

 

I actually see that River of the Waters of Life as more literal than symbolic. Christianity has had a long tradition with philosophizing it in symbolism, while Genesis 2 showed us early in God's Word that River was once established upon the ancient earth.

 

I well understand the symbolic principle you're comparing it to, but even with that River manifested on earth during Christ's Millennial reign, I don't see it applying to the wicked that will be in a place of separation outside the beloved city.