Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Guest]

 

 

Omegaman, 

 

 

So, since we know that the rapture follows a resurrection, why isn't it incumbant on pre-tribbers, to demonstrate that there is a Resurrection before the tribulation. Posties can point to a post trib res in Rev 20:

 

This is a very valid argument, and to be honest, I dearly wish there was a single scripture that clearly and distinctly stated that there was a pretrib rapture, but I am honest enough to say that there isn't.  Yes I realize that there can be a strong argument made for the case for a post trib rapture, and if I was to build my doctrine on one or two verses then, yes,I would believe in a post tribulation doctrine.  But I try to the best of my ability to build my doctrine by examining all the scriptures.  By constantly checking my understanding of the scriptures by examining all the verses.  I see scripture like a lock, with only the correct key being able to unlock it.  Now there are many different keys that will 'slide' into the lock, but there is only one key that will line up with all the tumblers that will allow the key to turn and unlock it.

 

Personally, I think there is a logical fallacy here. You have assumed that there are two types of people the saved and the unsaved, and that the saved are raptured, and the unsaved destroyed. I submit that there is another class of people. The book of Isaiah speaks of Jews who survive the tribulation, at least that is how I see it, but I don't want to belabor that point here, after all, I am trying hard to keep the thread focused on looking for scripture specifying a pre-trib coming of Christ, not wanting to make this about defending "there, I ran circles around you with logic" type arguments from pre-tribbers. I don't mind doing that elsewhere, but I want to keep this thread a little purer

 

The reason that I have this 'logical fallacy', as you put it, is because this is exactly what the scripture says.  Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and theGreek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

But, I do not want to derail this thread, and this is not my intention.  I want you to see that I see all of these 'bits' of scripture, as evidence of a pretrib rapture.  For a pretrib rapture is the only key that will turn all the tumblers on the lock.  ( at least that I see ), if you wish to start another thread, I will be more than happy to move to that one. I can't start a thread, as I am still on 'probation' by not having enough posts.   

 

As Iron sharpens Iron,

 

Joshua David

 

Joshua, I really appreciate your honesty and your tone, I like your contributions so far. I like also the key/lock analogy. I think though, that a problem most of us have (and I will not exclude myself) is that we tend to read scripture through filters of prior belief. As a former pre-tribber I never assumed anything other than pre-trib, I did not know there were even other positions. One I heard there were, I took 8 months reading from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21 looking for the groove and bumps that go on that key. Mind you, I only looked for one thing on that project, sequence of events from the destruction of the temple, to the 2nd advent of Christ, I did not at that time, seek to understand the millenium etc. I had a bedroom desk and table, even part of the floor covered in scraps of paper - notes - anything that could be seen as indicating sequence.

 

I took these notes and layed them out on a story board essentially, and tried to arrange them in a way that no verse or passage, contradicted another, or at least so that my understanding of verses, had no contradictions. At that time, 1986-1987, a post-trib sequence was all I could make work. So, what was I to do, continue to believe Hal Lindsay and my pastor? I couldn't, my allegiance was to scripture.

 

If I were to take on that project again, I might come to a different conclusion, but I have had this discussion here on Worthy, since 2004, and have not seen a convincing (to me) reason to go my pre-trib or any other persuasion.

 

It is not that I do not think there are no difficulties in my position, but I personal find them addressable without feeling like I am really having to stretch scripture or add to it to make it work. 

 

One thing that maybe I should have added to the OP, was a request for a convincing argument of the doctrine of Jesus imminent return, but that is addressed in other threads plenty. The reason I am tempted anyway, is that it seems like it is a necessary component to pre-tribism, and I find it equally missing in scripture, but that is another story.

 

- Omegaman 

[Salty]

^^Paul tells you what the mystery is that he is revealing, no need to guess: "That the gentiles should be fellowheirs".

Yes, Paul specifically says the gospel was preached before to Abraham. We can read the gospel in Isa 53. That doesn't change that it's meaning was hidden from OT eyes, since Paul tells us it was.

 

It is a silly mischaracterization to say that pre-trib was invented because someone didn't want to go through the trib. Pre-trib simply solves a lot of inconsistencies that exist in the scripture if the post trib view is held (I listed a bunch back in ). 

 

Here's wikipedia, with an article on the rapture written in either the 3rd century (or 6th but based on a 3rd century writer, hey, wiki is secular and crowdsourced, whaddaya expect), but  either date is significantly before Darby. Again, the "my theory is older" game is a waste of time, since Dan 12:4 says knowledge will increase:

 

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

If knowledge increases at the time of the end, surely we should take advantage to it!

 

The Pre-trib Rapture theory doctrine of man solves only one thing; the fact that God showed some believers will fall away in the last days and be the first one 'taken', but taken as a dead carcase wheresoever the eagles are gathered (Luke 17; Matt.24:28). It had to be invented, for it provides the avenue for those who will fall away into worshipping the pseudo-Christ who comes first.

[Montana Marv]

This is for some of you who think Rev 7:14  is the Church (These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.)  This is all about what they did.  Not what Christ did.

 

If one looks at 1 Cor 6:11 - And this is what some of you were.  But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.  This is all about what Christ did for us.  Christ did all the work,  He washed, sanctified, and justified us.

 

Those who come out of the Great Tribulation are those who did not die at Armageddon.  They have not been resurrected, just moved from one age into another age.

 

There will be a lot of flack over this.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

This is for some of you who think Rev 7:14  is the Church (These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.)  This is all about what they did.  Not what Christ did.

 

If one looks at 1 Cor 6:11 - And this is what some of you were.  But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.  This is all about what Christ did for us.  Christ did all the work,  He washed, sanctified, and justified us.

 

Those who come out of the Great Tribulation are those who did not die at Armageddon.  They have not been resurrected, just moved from one age into another age.

 

There will be a lot of flack over this.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I disagree. There's only one Way to wash one's robes in the Blood of Lamb making them white, and that is only by Faith on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ.

 

If you understand why the locusts of Rev.9 are not allowed to kill anyone not sealed with God's seal, then you should understand the opposite meaning about those with God's seal in that time that will be killed because of their Testimony for Christ they will give by The Holy Spirit. Do you not remember Mark 13 where Jesus foretold His elect they will be delivered up to councils and synagogues to give a Witness by The Holy Spirit, and to not premediate beforehand what they will say, but to speak what The Holy Spirit gives them to say in that 'hour'?

[Montana Marv]

Salty

 

Where is your white robe, what does it look like.  Why did you have to wash it?   The robe is an outer garment.  We have been cleaned from the inside out.

 

Zech 8:20 - 23 - This what the Lord Almighty says;  Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty  I myself am going.  And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.  This is what the Lord Almighty says;  In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.

 

And many say these all have their new resurrected bodies.  It looks like we have two groups, the Jews, and those from other nations.  All in the Mill.

 

A question for all?  Why does Christ need to rule with a rod of iron, if all have received their new resurrected glorified bodies.  We then must have some unproven resurrected saints.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Marilyn C]

Hi Montana Marv,

 

A very insightful question. `Why does Christ need to rule with a rod of iron...`

 

An example of this `rod of iron,` is in Zechariah.

 

`And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.....it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations .....this will be the punishment....` (Zech. 14: 17 - 19)

 

God planned for Israel to rule the nations & rule the nations they will, in the Millennium. God is just & is giving those of the nations an opportunity to turn to Him when Satan is bound up for that time. The `rod of iron` is the consequences of not obeying God as a nation - no rain, leads to famine, plagues etc.

[Montana Marv]

Hi Montana Marv,

 

A very insightful question. `Why does Christ need to rule with a rod of iron...`

 

An example of this `rod of iron,` is in Zechariah.

 

`And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.....it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations .....this will be the punishment....` (Zech. 14: 17 - 19)

 

God planned for Israel to rule the nations & rule the nations they will, in the Millennium. God is just & is giving those of the nations an opportunity to turn to Him when Satan is bound up for that time. The `rod of iron` is the consequences of not obeying God as a nation - no rain, leads to famine, plagues etc.

Marilyn

 

Thanks

 

Oh, but are not all these of the First Resurrection as some believe.  Do they not all have Glorified Bodies as Christs Body.  Are we the Bride  united into the Vine with Israel at this time.   Wow, I see a two tiered society during the Mill, the Jews First, the Gentiles nations Second/Last.  I wonder what the Post Trib crowd will make of this two tiered society during the Mill.  Please let me hold fast to the hem of your Jewish robe as we go to Jerusalem, For we know that God is with you, the Jew.  From Jacob and his descendants, I see a two tiered society, the Jew First, the Gentiles Last.  Then, I see the Church First and Israel, Second and the rest of the World Last.  And then during the 7 years, Israel First, the rest of the World Second.  Then during the Mill I see Israel First again and the Gentiles Second.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

I also wonder, Who, do we as Believers in Christ rule over during the Mill; Since we reign with Him..  I also wonder if we are all of the First Resurrection during the Mill, as some believe, How can Satan deceive anyone at the end of the Mill.  Ponder, Ponder, Ponder on this.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Marilyn C]

Hi Montana Marv,

 

I agree with a lot you have said except `where` we the Body will be in the Millennium & beyond.

 

So can you give your view & scriptures as to `where you think the Body of Christ will be in the Millennium.`

 

I have now started a thread for this topic.

[Floatingaxe]

I also wonder, Who, do we as Believers in Christ rule over during the Mill; Since we reign with Him..  I also wonder if we are all of the First Resurrection during the Mill, as some believe, How can Satan deceive anyone at the end of the Mill.  Ponder, Ponder, Ponder on this.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

We will be ruling and reigning over the nations who come out of the Great Tribulation.

 

As there will be millions upon millions of people born during the Millennium, who will have only heard the stories of Jesus as many of the righteous that came out of the post-cross time have (like us!), but never knew the wars and wickedness that came before, they will be sorely tried by the wickedness that will be unleashed as Satan is let loose for a short time. Their faith will be in the visible King Jesus, and their faith will be sorely tested, not unlike Adam and Eve's ("Did God really say...?"). It will be a rubber-meets-the-road kind of experience for mortal Millennial believers.