Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[S.T. Ranger]

Why won't it let me use the functions (i.e., bold, italics, size, et cetera) when I am in the quote box? I hit the function above "B" but it disables the functions, and when I hit it within the quote and they become functional again, when I highlight what I want to emphasize or change the size on, my highlight disappears.

Any helpful tips on this will be greatly appreciated.

[S.T. Ranger]

You say that it is at this time that Antichrist makes the covenant, and I would agree with that, because the covenant Antichrist effects is broken at the mid-point of the Tribulation

Not @ the "mid-point" of Tribulation.

Well, that is what we will have to work out.

 

Daniel 9:27 King James Version (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This "covenant" is confirmed for one week, or...seven years. In the middle of the seven years we see Antichrist shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease (which makes it impossible that he is defiling the Temple during this time), and for the overspreading of abominations he make it...desolate.

Now we consult Chapter 12:

Daniel 12 King James Version (KJV)

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

When the daily sacrifice is taken away (and clearly this would not be something effected by Antichrist, but by Jews) and the abomination which makes desolate set up there shall be two thousand two hundred and ninety days. Keep in mind that the "end of these things is in view, and the total period from the mid-point of the Tribulation is set at roughly 3 1/2 years. While Antichrist himself only gets 1260 days, the end in view speaks of the culmination of events which then begin the Millennial Kingdom.

The point is this: Daniel makes it clear when the Abomination of Desolation begins, and how long events unfold after that. We know that Daniel's Seventieth Week is a seven year period, which places the Abomination of Desolation, as Daniel makes clear, at the mid-point, or, 3 1/2 years into the Tribulation.

For the first half, we see the judgments begin to unfold, and while I believe that Antichrist begins his career at the start of this, we also have to follow the events as described in Revelation, which begin with the Seal Judgments, which are unleashed as these Seals are opened. Antichrist plays a part in some these events, I believe, but it is not until the mid-point of the Tribulation that he is unveiled as Antichrist. It is then that whatever covenant is in view which allows for daily sacrifice...is broken. At that time the Abomination of Desolation takes place, and it is just my view that it will be similar to Antiochus Epiphanes' desecration of the Temple. Antichrist's career begins, I believe, in the midst of worldwide tribulation, and just speculation on my part, but I believe he will be received by the world similarly as we saw the world "rejoice" when Obama was elected the first time. Some things I wish I could erase from my memory, lol, and seeing Japanese people singing "Obama is the bomb-uh" is one of those.

 

There is no "Tribulation" only the "Great Tribulation"

Semantics. "Tribulation" is certainly a proper designation for Daniel's Seventieth Week, just as "Rapture" is an acceptable term for the "Catching Away." Just as "Communion" is an acceptable term for Communion, and "Christmas" is an acceptable term to speak of the Lord's birth.

The distinction between Tribulation and Great Tribulation has been used to distinguish between the first and second halves of Daniel's Seventieth Week. To say there is no first half of Daniel's Seventieth Week is not a statement anyone will take seriously. At least...I won't.

and it begins with the Abomination of Desolation and last for 3.5 years.

I would agree, "The Great Tribulation begins with the Abomination of Desolation and lasts for 3 1/2 years."

Just because the last half of Daniel's 70th Week is the "Great Tribulation" doesn't Ipso Facto make the first half (3.5 years) "Tribulation",

I agree, it is the Daniel, the Lord, Paul, and John's teaching that makes the first half of the Tribulation tribulation.

You think the Seal Judgments are not tribulation? Or do you think the Seal Judgments begin in the last half of the Tribulation? I can understand why you might think the latter, and to be honest, while I don't agree, it is a reasonable view. However, when we see that Antichrist, according to Daniel, is active in the first half, bringing about a covenant which allows for daily sacrifice, which is balanced with the fact that we cannot logically make the Antichrist's reign and the Two Witnesses' ministry run concurrent...

...leads me to believe the Tribulation is a seven year period which begins with the Seal Judgments, which give rise to Antichrist as there will be much death, destruction, famine, disease, and in general...tribulation such as this world has never seen, nor will ever see again.

But that's just me.

especially when that week starts out of some kind of Peace Treaty. Whoever started the "Tribulation" nonsense has really complicated precision and "Gummed up the works" with an already complex subject.

It's not that complicated, in my view. Following the timeline of events bolstered by what we are told elsewhere in Scripture simplifies understanding of these events.

The worse advice someone can give to another who wants to understand Revelation is "Revelation is not sequential" and "Revelation is only symbolic."

Revelation is sequential and while it uses symbology, metaphor, and figurative language, that doesn't negate what that symbology, metaphor, and figurative language teaches, which is the events of the Tribulation which God gave to us, not that we be confused about what is going to happen, but so we can know what is going to happen and teach others.

The problem you have here is that "Christians that have read Daniel" will not be able to mark their calendars, because when the Rapture takes place and the Tribulation begins...there are no Christians in the world.

It's not my problem,

I may go back and address the original posts, as not being able to quote, or not knowing how, leaves things less clear.

for I believe and so stated that the Rapture must take place before Daniel's 70th Week.

You said...

Moreover....

If any "Christians" that have read Daniel Chapter 9:27 (Every "Christian" {other than newly converted} that I ever met is somewhat to Overtly aware of it) Observe or Hear of the Covenant with the Many or the Abomination of Desolation....They can more or less Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches for Christ's Return....Whereby Scuttling the below Passages along with another 8-10 that I didn't post.

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

(2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Either the above passages are True/Correct...... OR..... Mid/Post Great-Trib Rapture is True. They are clearly Mutually Exclusive....BOTH can't be TRUE.

...which tries to argue that Christians will be able to set their watches for Christ's Return, when the fact is, at this time there will be no Christians present to set their watches. When the Church is raptured, all that are left are natural men who will, at the beginning, have no clue as to what is going on.

There will be those who had been involved in Churchianity, who will be able to put the puzzle together, but what you are not thinking about is that once the Tribulation starts..."no man knowing the day or the hour" becomes a moot point. That is significant to our day, not the Tribulation.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

AND:

1. We already discussed the "Tribulation" issue.

We have hardly begun, lol.

Just because you post something that you think is true does not either make it true or...end the discussion. "I have spoken!" may work with some antagonists, my friend, but if you want to get into this in seriousness, be prepared and be expected to present a biblical support for what you are teaching.

2. I caution you here, there is nothing that states that Daniel's 70th Week "Immediately" follows The Rapture.....you are Presuming.

The presumption is not mine, as I have not said that Daniel's Seventieth Week immediately follows the Rapture. I do think it likely, but quote me where I said this.

It is my view that the Two Witnesses minister in the first half, are killed, resurrected, and caught up to Heaven, and then Antichrist's reign of terror truly begins.

Can't be.

Not only can it be, but because we cannot have the Two Witnesses impervious to Antichrist and Antichrist desolating the Temple as concurrent events, it is the only tenable position to take.

Your view makes it necessary that the Abomination of Desolation take place at the end of the Tribulation, rather than in the middle as you already know it takes place.

Understand?

And I'm assuming you're still considering the "First Half" something that it's not.

Take a look at the Lord's description:

Matthew 24:4-8 King James Version (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Compare that with the Seal Judgments.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Now go back and look at what some call "Tribulation" and then distinguish that from the "Great Tribulation" the Lord speaks of here. The Abomination of Desolation divides the two halves and it is at that time they are to flee. Then we will see the Satan and Antichrist begin a full onslaught of persecution against Israel. That is when things get as bad as it can or ever will get.

As mentioned, The "Great Tribulation" begins in the Midst of the Week

That is not in question, but it seems that you deny a first half which Christ clearly states will be a time of trouble. Read vv.4-8 again.

with the Abomination of Desolation and lasts for...

"Time and Times, and a Dividing of Time": Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; "1260 Days": Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6 ; "42 Months": Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5.

This is not in question.

You are creating false arguments.

The Two Witnesses are here...

(Revelation 11:3) "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

Right: 3 1/2 years.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

They come on the seen @ the same time as The Abomination of Desolation....in the midst of Daniel's 70th Week.

Not possible. This would place the Abomination of Desolation at the end of the Tribulation, rather than in the middle. How can you have the Two Witnesses impervious to anyone and at the same time have them killed?

Your argument again imposes something that Paul states dogmatically is not impossible in a number of passages, which is they will not be spiritually discerning of spiritual events.

I haven't the first clue what you're talking about.

Again, an argument that "no man knows the day or the hour" in regards to the Day of the Lord is a moot issue for both believers and unbelievers in the Tribulation itself.

For believers because they will know they are in the Tribulation. This is why the Lord tells them when they see these things...understand what is happening.

For unbelievers because they will be under strong delusion so we wouldn't argue whether they will understand spiritual truth or not. They will have been deceived by Antichrist and under strong delusion sent by God so whether they know the day or the hour is, again...a moot point.

And you are forgetting that Paul wrote that this day will not come upon us as a thief in the night.

I didn't forget it...and again @ a loss on how this impacts my argument.

You said...

If any "Christians" that have read Daniel Chapter 9:27 (Every "Christian" {other than newly converted} that I ever met is somewhat to Overtly aware of it) Observe or Hear of the Covenant with the Many or the Abomination of Desolation....They can more or less Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches for Christ's Return....Whereby Scuttling the below Passages along with another 8-10 that I didn't post.

Which I took to be an argument that the "scuttled verses" would not be true if Christians could set their watches based on understanding the events. If that is not what you meant, fine, but, again, it is a moot point.

There will not be any Christians when the Tribulation starts, because the Church will have been caught up to Heaven.

Understand?

So this point too does not negate a Pre-trib Rapture. You say "Either the above passages are true/correct" and I can stop you right there...they are. The problem is not that they are not correct, the problem is making those in view...Christians.

We seem to have gone done some dark alley.

After the Church is Raptured, the only ones able to identify events will be those that are saved after the tribulation begins. We would not consider those under strong delusion to understand and set their watches.

Those who are saved will be Christians, and the passages you quoted will not apply to them, because those passages refer to our day, before the Rapture.

Understand?

Of course, the Christians will be gone...That's my point.

Then why try to say that those passages are scuttled if someone understands to the point where they can in fact know the day and the hour of Christ's return...during the Tribulation.

Of course they will be able to set their watches, lol.

If they weren't gone, by the "Covenant with the Many" (Beginning of Daniel's 70th Week)

I think my inability to quote has created more confusion than necessary. Hopefully we can correct that from this point on.

then it would render the passages and Doctrine False.

I would agree with that, but that is not what I took from your statement.

"If any "Christians" that have read Daniel Chapter 9:27 (Every "Christian" {other than newly converted} that I ever met is somewhat to Overtly aware of it) Observe or Hear of the Covenant with the Many or the Abomination of Desolation....They can more or less Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches for Christ's Return....Whereby Scuttling the below Passages along with another 8-10 that I didn't post."

You have in view here the beginning of the Tribulation, correct? Are you not saying that the passages quoted would be scuttled if "Christians hear about the covenant?"

They won't be, because first there are no Christians at the beginning of the Tribulation...they have all been raptured. Secondly, understanding and being able to know the day of the Lord's Return within the tribulation is a moot point. They will be able to know how long before the Lord's Return.

Consider:

Revelation 12:6 King James Version (KJV)

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Will not those that flee into the place prepared be able to know they have 3 1/2 years before the Lord's Return?

Because the Christians Know what's coming 7 years from that point.

Again...the Church will be gone. We don't nullify, in this period/age, that no man knows the day or the hour of the Coming of the Son of Man. We will not know until the Rapture. At that point, those that are still upon the earth will begin a process of either turning to the Lord or turning to Antichrist. Those that turn to the Lord will be able to follow the timeline of Revelation and know what is going to happen before it happens.

I am not sure what you are asking in regards to Revelation 19:16.

Well you said: "Furthermore, when He returns, we see the Sheep and Goat Judgment". For your statement to be correct, you have to show WHERE this judgement is since Christ Returns in Rev 19:16.

Easy enough, as it is found throughout the Gospels:

Matthew 13 King James Version (KJV)

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24:31 King James Version (KJV)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 King James Version (KJV)

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Matthew 25:31-33 King James Version (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

If you are trying to negate the judgment which takes place when the Lord returns you are going to have to "scuttle" quite a bit of the Lord's teaching.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

The order of events are thus: Christ returns, the enemies of God are destroyed, Satan is bound, and the Kingdom established, given a length of one thousand years. At this time, one of the greatest misconceptions about the Rapture is perpetrated in Revelation 20, where Post-Trib believers reason that because this is called the "First Resurrection," this must mean that the Rapture takes place here.

This is wrong for a number of reasons.

Yep.

Glad we agree on that.

Some prophecy has more than one application, such as prophecy in Daniel applying both to Antiochus Epiphanes as well as the final and ultimate Antichrist.

Well yea, but that doesn't give you Carte Blanche warrant to associate Ezekiel 38-39 with Revelation or Daniel.

Actually, I never mentioned Ezekiel 38, so if you continue to create false arguments and then answering them I will have to refrain from engaging you in discussion and debate. Respond to what I have said, and do not include what you want me to have said.

If you notice in Ezekiel 39 you will see that after this destruction of the enemies of God, there are given two time frames concerning what takes place after they are destroyed: seven months, and seven years.

So?

The point is that after the end of the Tribulation there is still a physical existence in the world, contrary to what our a-mil brethren believe.

How that is relevant to this conversation is that the Supper of the Great God occurs just prior to the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom. We see in Ezekiel the similarity with Revelation 19 thus suggesting that this is another prophecy which, while having fulfillment at some point in history, has a future fulfillment in view.

The coming of Messiah is the greatest example, because Old Testament Prophecy has God promising to restore Israel to a Kingdom where righteousness will be found. The disciples of Christ, in Acts 1, as the Lord..."Will you at this time restore the Kingdom unto Israel?" The Lord states "It is not for you to know the time or the season." Now, we can say that prophecy concerning Christ coming has been fulfilled, yet there remains a fulfillment which will be the culmination of the prophecy in which it is fulfilled exactly how it was given. Christ will come, as Israel believed, to restore the Kingdom and to establish a throne in which the Son of David will reign. But He has come and that prophecy, from a spiritual perspective, has been fulfilled. The Kingdom of God, spiritually, is established. The Kingdom of God, physically, will be fulfilled in the Millennial Kingdom.

While some will separate Old Testament Prophecy from New Testament Prophecy, I would remind you that Christ Himself spoke of a future fulfillment of the Abomination of Desolation.

Why would "some" do that?

To fit their Theology System. An example would be those that interpret the events of Revelation as having been fulfilled in the First Century.

It's Non-Sequitur (Fallacy).

I agree. There is no way we can see prophecy fulfilled as it always is, perfectly...in the first century. Multiple applications, as well as partial fulfillment, such as we see in the Lord reading Isaiah and saying that it had been fulfilled...

Luke 4:16-21 King James Version (KJV)

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

But there is more of the prophecy to be fulfilled. This is still a future event.

There's over 800 allusions to the OT in The Book of Revelation.

Let's not limit it to that but look at the "allusions" in the Old Testament to New Testament prophecy. Just as in the example of Ezekiel 39. I would suggest that what is in view is the Supper of the Great God, and that ultimately Ezekiel 39 will be fulfilled as it is also stated in Revelation 19.

His warning is, "When you see these things happen...flee!" It is not a coincidence that the Supper of the Great God resembles what is described in Ezekiel 39, nor is it a coincidence Ezekiel then proceeds to speak about the Kingdom.

When you see what things happen...Flee? ....

(Matthew 24:15-17) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) {16} Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: {17} Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:"

We cannot divorce the rest of the text in which the events are foretold by the Lord from recognition of the Abomination of Desolation.

The Lord was just as concerned that they know more than the Abomination of Desolation was still future. All of these things are to be looked for by the discerning. The Abomination of Desolation is the event in which they are to flee.

Daniel not Ezekiel.

In view was the Supper of the Great God, which is found in Revelation and Ezekiel, not Daniel:

His warning is, "When you see these things happen...flee!" It is not a coincidence that the Supper of the Great God resembles what is described in Ezekiel 39, nor is it a coincidence Ezekiel then proceeds to speak about the Kingdom.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

It is not a coincidence that the Supper of the Great God resembles what is described in Ezekiel 39, nor is it a coincidence Ezekiel then proceeds to speak about the Kingdom.

Well lets take a look...

(Revelation 19:17-18) "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; {18} That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

(Ezekiel 39:17-20) "¶ And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. {18} Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. {19} And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. {20} Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD."

So:

1. Revelation: an Angel cried with a Loud Voice. Ezekiel: Ezekiel (son of man) Speaks.

2. Revelation: The Angel spoke to ALL the fowls of the air. Ezekiel: Spoke to every "Feathered" fowl AND every Beast of the Field.

3. Revelation: Eat Flesh. Ezekiel: Eat Flesh AND Drink Blood.

4. Revelation: Eat Flesh of: kings, captains, mighty men, horses and of them that sit on them, men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Ezekiel: Eat Flesh of the mighty. Drink blood of: princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

Again, the similarities are not coincidence, but evidence of the harmony and consistency of the Prophecy of the Word of God.

 

These are clearly not the same event.

While there are specific issues which pertain to either the original or the latter prophecies, because of that we do not negate the possibility that the two refer to the same ultimate event. Just as we do not see certain events ascribed to Antiochus Epiphanes ascribed to the ultimate Antichrist does not mean that Daniel, Paul, and John all write about a different person.

Just not a good argument.

 

Moreover, The Purpose of the Gog/Magog Invasion is for "Booty" and Spoil"; Whereas, Revelation/"great Tribulation" is to push the Jews to the Wall and have the Jewish Remnant Petition The LORD to Return...

(Ezekiel 38:9-12) "Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. {10} Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: {11} And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, {12} To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land."

(Ezekiel 38:13) "Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?"

That's all fine and good, but again...I never referenced Ezekiel 38.

In view was ch.39 which makes all of this irrelevant.

I never mentioned the Gog/Magog invasion, lol, just as Revelation does not put the siege against Jerusalem in those specific terms.

 

Purpose of the "great tribulation"......(Hosea 5:15) "¶ I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

Purpose of the Tribulation:

Daniel 9:24 King James Version (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

And can you please show anywhere in Ezekiel 38-39, These....

THE LAMB or The LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH?? Then: satan/ ac/ False Prophet/ Mark of the beast/ Martyrs/ 2 Witnesses.....Preaching, Killed, then Resurrected....rising to Heaven with everyone watching /Mystery Babylon/ Babylon Proper...being destroyed/ Tribulation Saints/ 144,00 Sealed/ 7 Churches/ 7 Seals/ 7 Trumpets/ 7 Bowls/ Locusts....tormenting men 5 Months/ Signs in sun, moon, stars, heaven/ Bottomless Pit/ Michael Casting satan out of Heaven with 1/3 of his angels/ 24 Elders/ 4 Living Creatures with six wings about them/ The Four Horseman/ Wormwood/ The 4 Angels loosed from the great river Euphrates/ Army of two hundred thousand thousand/ The Temple of GOD/ The Ark of HIS Testament/ Blasphemy against GOD/ Abomination of Desolation/ Deadly Head Wound...then Healed/ Image of the Beast that came to Life/ Mount Sion/ Flying Angel Preaching the Gospel/ Angels with Sharp Sickles/ Vine and Grapes/ Great Winepress/ Blood 1600 Furlongs up to Horses Bridles/ Grievous Sores upon Men/ sea as blood of a dead man and ALL sea-life Died/ Sun Scorching men with Fire/ Angel Standing on the Sun/ men gnawing their tongues in pain...No Repentance/ Frogs out of the mouth of dragon, people with the mark....cast into the Lake of Fire/ Marriage Supper/ Wife....arrayed in fine linen, white and clean/ White Horse/ Vesture dipped in Blood....written on the side: KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Can you show me in Isaiah 53 that Christ is the Son of the Living God?

Ridiculous argument, my friend, I am sorry you wasted your time posting all of this.

 

"Of course sheep know they are sheep, lol." ----

Ahhh, no they don't....

Yes, actually they do, lol.

 

(Matthew 25:33-40) " And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. {34} Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: {35} For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: {36} Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

{37} Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? {38} When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? {39} Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? {40} And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Nothing in this to show they are not aware they are sheep. What is in this text is that the good works they performed were not done for the purpose of being saved.

You are not only combatting Scripture against Scripture but you are denying what the Lord stated very clearly:

John 10:14

King James Version

14 I am the Good Shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

 

See that ( ? )....they're speaking volumes if you care to listen.

I agree. However, they are not saying that they do not know they belong to the Lord, thus nullifying what the Lord Himself taught.

This is contrasted with those that thought their works affirmed relationship with the Lord, whereas the Lord states "I never knew you."

 

Perhaps it's time to stop the "lol-ing" and get to the "pay attention to detail-ing"

lol...I don't think so. When you see a lol it means that I have actually been made to laugh.

If you don't want me laughing at your theology, then it is up to you to be a little more careful about what you say. I can't help but find something like this or something like the Holy Spirit being removed from the world as a little bit humorous.

 

"Hopefully the restrictions concerning quoting will not continue, which will make it a little easier to respond." ----

To Reply, Hit Quote (Bottom Right of the Post). In the Work Box, Scroll up to what you wish to reply to. Copy it, then paste it in the work Area. Highlight it again and Hit the ( " ) Icon just below "My Media" on the editing menu. You should be good to go.

Thanks for the help. I am still not sure why it won't let me utilize the functions, though.

God bless.

Edited December 21, 2014 by S.T. Ranger

[wingnut-]

 

 I would like to thank you as well, for jogging my old brain 

 

 

"Old" being the operative word , thought I'd get that in there for you wing. 

 

Oh my dear friend, as I was typing that I knew it would draw your attention

[wingnut-]

 

Sir,

 

I just spent the last few hours going through a detailed study of the first 2 Chapters of Hosea and I have some serious issues with your "Pigeon Holing" of Hos 2:14 with Revelation 12:14.

 

 

We'll start from the top of Hosea, chapter 1.

 

Hosea 1:² When the Lord began to speak through Hosea, the Lord said to him, “Go, marry a promiscuous woman and have children with her, for like an adulterous wife this land is guilty of unfaithfulness to the Lord.”

 

God instructs Hosea to marry an unfaithful woman, why?  To draw a parallel between Hosea's marriage and God's relationship with Israel.  Chapter one goes on to discuss Hosea's personal life, his children, their names, and the meanings of their names.  All names the Lord chose for prophetic purposes to demonstrate the illustration throughout the following chapter.

 

 Leading up to these passages, Hosea is speaking and warning the Northern "Idolatrous" Kingdom.

 

 

Hosea 1:¹¹ The people of Judah and the people of Israel will come together; they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel.

 

Really?  That is the final verse of chapter 1, it is only 11 verses long, you missed this detail in your details.

 

Other critical details that you failed to notice.

 

Hosea 1:⁴ Then the Lord said to Hosea, “Call him Jezreel, because I will soon punish the house of Jehu for the massacre at Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. ⁵ In that day I will break Israel’s bow in the Valley of Jezreel.”

 

Hosea's first son, Jezreel.  The name represents a historical incident from II Kings 9-10.  Hosea lived to see this prophecy fulfilled, II Kings 15:8-12.  For a historical perspective of the time Hosea lived, see II Kings 14:23-17:41.  The name Jezreel has a double meaning, it means both to "scatter", and to "sow".  This is illustrated in chapter 2:11 (to scatter), and in verse 22 (to sow).  All three of these names are curses that turn to blessings.

 

Hosea 1:⁶ Gomer conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. Then the Lord said to Hosea, “Call her Lo-Ruhamah (which means “not loved”), for I will no longer show love to Israel, that I should at all forgive them.

 

Hosea's daughter, pay close attention to the meaning of her name, not loved.

 

Hosea 1:⁸ After she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, Gomer had another son. ⁹ Then the Lord said, “Call him Lo-Ammi (which means “not my people”), for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

 

Hosea's second son, pay close attention to the meaning of his name, not my people.

 

Note the increasing nature of God's displeasure denoted by their names, first comes punishment, then a loss of love, finally total divorce.  Now I've already pointed you to the passages that include Jezreel, how about the other two?

 

Hosea 2 “Say of your brothers, ‘My people,’ and of your sisters, ‘My loved one.’

 

Hosea 2:²³ I will plant her for myself in the land;

    I will show my love to the one I called ‘Not my loved one.’

I will say to those called ‘Not my people,’ ‘You are my people’;

    and they will say, ‘You are my God.’”

 

The chapter begins and ends around them.  This entire chapter is based around Hosea's personal life, and how God related to Israel.  Why does Hosea use the language he used?  Simple, his calling was the northern kingdom, this is what he related to.  From his perspective, adultery was the root cause of Israel's issues.

 

At the same time, Amos was also prophesying in the northern kingdom.  He concentrated mostly on law and justice, with an emphasis on the poor.  Combining what these two prophets were addressing, together they address Israel's problems.

 

Chapter 3 is also very short, 5 verses in fact, so I will just post the entire thing.

 

Hosea 3 The Lord said to me, “Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another man and is an adulteress. Love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes.”

² So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and about a homer and a lethek of barley. ³ Then I told her, “You are to live with me many days; you must not be a prostitute or be intimate with any man, and I will behave the same way toward you.”

⁴ For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or household gods. ⁵ Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the Lord and to his blessings in the last days.

 

Do you still say Hosea is only addressing the northern kingdom?

 

Contradictions with this scenario that immediately come to mind:

 

1.  It was not just the northern kingdom that came up out of Egypt.

2.  It is not just the northern kingdom that will live without the things mentioned in Hosea 3:4 above.

3.  It is not just the northern kingdom that God divorced.

4.  The Lord says in chapter 3, “Go, show your love to your wife again," and, "Love her as the Lord loves the Israelites,"  He does not say, "Love her as the Lord loves the northern kingdom."

 

The fact that she is His wife again is clear, and you still want to say the Jews are not a part of the bride.  Chapter 4 to the end gets away from the personal comparison to Hosea's life, but Hosea's message is consistent concerning adultery.

 

Still not convinced, perhaps this passage from Hosea 2 will help.

 

Hosea 2:¹⁹ I will betroth you to me forever;

    I will betroth you in righteousness and justice,

    in love and compassion.

²⁰ I will betroth you in faithfulness,

    and you will acknowledge the Lord.

 

What does betroth mean?

 

These are not speaking to the same event,

 

 

Fine, if you really want to travel down this rabbit hole, please show me the scriptural support you have for this claim.  By that I mean, can you show me where this prophecy in Hosea came to pass?  That will be difficult to do, considering the material states multiple times comments such as, "They will come trembling to the Lord and to his blessings in the last days." (Hosea 3:5)  You won't find scriptural support placing an event in history when that event is still a future event.

 

And more from Hosea regarding your suggestion this prophecy was only for the northern kingdom.

 

Hosea 5:⁵ Israel’s arrogance testifies against them;

    the Israelites, even Ephraim, stumble in their sin;

    Judah also stumbles with them.

 

Hosea 5:¹⁰ Judah’s leaders are like those

    who move boundary stones.

I will pour out my wrath on them

    like a flood of water.

¹¹ Ephraim is oppressed,

    trampled in judgment,

    intent on pursuing idols.

¹² I am like a moth to Ephraim,

    like rot to the people of Judah.

 

Who is Ephraim?  The northern kingdom.  Who is Judah?  The southern kingdom.  At any rate, I think I have clearly illustrated my point using scripture as to whom Hosea is addressing.  You may want to reconsider rushing through Hosea, it appears you are overlooking the important details and arriving at the wrong conclusions.  The bread crumbs are established in chapter 1 for the content of the first three chapters.

 

(Hosea 2:18) "And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely."

 

 

"In that day"...what is this speaking to by ALL the tenets of the Passage?

 

 

This passage is speaking about eternity, this is the New Jerusalem.  When will the bow, sword, and battle be broken out of the earth?  Not before that final battle, I assure you.  How about we look to the passages you suggested from Isaiah for clarification.

 

Thank you for sharing this, what a blessing of confirmation from the Lord.

 

Isaiah 65:⁹ I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,

    and from Judah those who will possess my mountains;

my chosen people will inherit them,

    and there will my servants live.

¹⁰ Sharon will become a pasture for flocks,

    and the Valley of Achor a resting place for herds,

    for my people who seek me.

 

You see everything we have been talking about right here.  The remnant comes from both the northern and southern kingdoms, His chosen people.  Where are they going?  We saw the Valley of Achor in Hosea's prophecy as well, or, the valley of trouble.  Still question whether or not Hosea was speaking about this time?

 

The chapter continues to progress, we're still not quite to the verse you specified yet though.

 

Isaiah 65:¹⁷ “See, I will create

    new heavens and a new earth.

The former things will not be remembered,

    nor will they come to mind.

¹⁸ But be glad and rejoice forever

    in what I will create,

for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight

    and its people a joy.

¹⁹ I will rejoice over Jerusalem

    and take delight in my people;

the sound of weeping and of crying

    will be heard in it no more.

 

Here we have our new heaven and new earth, we are still not yet to the verse you specified.  No more weeping and crying right?  This follows what event in Revelation?

 

Isaiah 65:²⁵ The wolf and the lamb will feed together,

    and the lion will eat straw like the ox,

    and dust will be the serpent’s food.

They will neither harm nor destroy

    on all my holy mountain,”

says the Lord.

 

Considering that the earth and all that is on it are systematically destroyed by the illustration in Revelation, how did a doctrine evolve that would have us populating a destroyed earth?  Do we not see the plants and animals destroyed, the water undrinkable?  Did you really think that He would reconstruct this destroyed earth, only to destroy it again?

 

The millenium is not what you imagine, the millenium is this:

 

Matthew 24:³⁶ “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

Scripture points us to a very specific day, and within that day, a very specific hour.  In Revelation chapter 18, it is called the Fall of Babylon, follow the clues in the chapter, look for the mentioning of this day and hour.

 

You already know how this is possible, this verse is familiar I am certain, but pay close attention to the exact verbiage Peter uses.

 

II Peter 3:8  But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

 

Why does he make sure to tell us not to forget?  Possibly because if we want to unlock the mystery, we have to use the right key. 

 

I will continue to assess and re-assess, as I have done all along, and as always, I eagerly await your response.  I will be patient, this is a lot to digest, God bless.

 

 

 

[Sister]

Wingnut

 

That was an excellent observation! 

Well done, the Lord has blessed you.

[Tinky]

Wow Wingnut - that was an awesome post! You are really teaching me a lot!