Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[ncn]

This is to all members. 

 

Debate the subject, not the person.

It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating.

Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God!

This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted!

Users that cannot respect others will be banned. from the thread. 

 

If you know you are butting heads with another member, be the first to offer an olive branch and be the peacemaker.

If you notice that you are getting heated by another’s response, walk away from the thread until you know you have His peace back in your life over the issue.

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Check your attitudes as you post, ensuring that what you are posting is exactly what you want to post.

Watch your words. Using passive aggressive statements are just as cutting and demeaning as an outright insult.

 

Ensure that you are discussing the issue, not the person.

If you have a personal statement to make to another member, take it private and remain respectful.

Take the time to ensure that what you think someone is saying is what they are saying, not reading into another’s post.

 

Ask questions for clarification when a statement is unclear instead of assuming you know what someone is saying is advisable.

Back up your words with supporting Scripture. If you don’t, one could easily see a post as “Because I said so”, which goes absolutely nowhere.

 

Always seek the guidance from the Holy Spirit as to how to reply to a post.

Last, but far from the least, post as if you are posting to Jesus, because He is with you and everyone else.

 

God Bless.

 

Nigel. 

[wingnut-]

Hello Ranger,

 

I apologize for the delay in getting back to you, I appreciate you providing the material for me that I requested.  I have read all of your posts in this thread, so first I want to be sure I understand your position as stated.  Please correct me if I am wrong, I don't want to draw wrong conclusions or attribute something to your position that is inaccurate.

 

In an earlier post, you stated that the rapture is a resurrection.  I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment considering we see dead bodies rising in each scriptural passage that are typically incorporated to this discussion.  I am glad to see we agree on this critical point.

 

Now, as I understand your position we have:

 

1.  The resurrection of the church.

2.  The resurrection of the two witnesses.

3.  The resurrection of believers that come out of the tribulation.

4.  The resurrection of the dead following the millenium.

 

If I understood you correctly, you see the church and the two witnesses as the first resurrection to take place.  Following that you have the resurrection of believers from the tribulation, and lastly the resurrection of the dead.  Is that correct?

[wingnut-]

Hello everyone. There are really some excellent responses to this thread.

 

 

 

Hello Judith,

 

There are a few things you bring up here that I would like to respond to, beginning with dispensations.  This is a man-made doctrine, and does not hold the weight of scripture, so it should be examined with extreme caution.  So let's examine it a bit and see.

 

According to this doctrine, we arrived in our current place following the resurrection of Jesus, what we think of as the new covenant.  When the rapture occurs, we will revert back to the old covenant.  What this does in effect, is eliminate the resurrection of Jesus.  Jesus lives!  Can we go back to the way it was before?  Can this be undone?  Regardless of one's position on who will still be here, do we agree that they still need Jesus?  Going back is not an option.

 

Also, where in scripture is this denoted, this changing of ages?  The only places scripture points to as an end to the age, all point to the same place.  This is where Jesus places the end of the age.

 

Matthew 13:³⁶ Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

³⁷ He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. ³⁸ The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, ³⁹ and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

⁴⁰ “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. ⁴¹ The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. ⁴² They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ⁴³ Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

 

Verse 40 is the key verse here.  When does this occur?  Great White Throne judgement.  To further clarify, carefully examine verse 41, then 42.  They will weed out everything that causes sin, and all who do evil, this is the end.  Once you have eliminated the cause of sin, and all who do evil, the battle is won.  Again, not just eliminating sin, but the cause of sin.  When are people thrown into the blazing furnace?  When will there be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

 

There are no other age endings in scripture, this comes from Jesus Himself.  We are not going back before the cross, this doctrine is not inspired of God, and is contrary to scripture.  I know of an enemy that would love to "undo" what was done at the cross though.

 

the Church, separated and distinguished apart from Israel, has as her

fulfillment the promise of a new home in heaven where Jesus is actively building mansions for

his bride.

 

 

The heaven that exists now is going to be destroyed along with the earth, God is making not only a new earth, but a new heaven as well according to all scripture that deals with this time.  We know it as the New Jerusalem, and this will be our home, this is the place He went to prepare.

 

If I understand you correctly, we agree that the bride consists of all believers, both Jew and Gentile.  The separation or division you suggest exists is also contrary to scripture.

 

Matthew 12:25  Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.

 

Mark 3:25  If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

 

Luke 11:17  Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: “Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall.

 

Make no mistake, any attempt to separate or draw distinctions between the two is dividing.  In two of the three verses above, Jesus denotes "every kingdom" and "any kingdom", this would include His kingdom.

 

Was Jesus not part of the promise God had with Israel in the old covenant?  From His birth, to His ministry, to His death, to His resurrection, and what is still to come.  God's plan has never changed, God does not change.  He does not need to, He knew the end from the beginning, correct?

 

So, when God says any of these things; "His children", "His people", "His chosen ones", "His elect".....He is always addressing the same people.  He knew us before we were conceived.  He knows His sheep, and His sheep know Him.  Ethnicity is not a factor to God, this separation you suggest is coming from man's understanding.

 

Isaiah 55:8  “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.

 

Scripture tells us that God looks at our hearts, our hearts are the same, the outward appearance does not matter.  God has no racist tendencies, race does not matter.  We all come from the same two people if you accept Genesis as literal, and later we narrow it again through Noah and his family following the great flood.  All before there is even an Israel.

 

The salvation message will begin with the two Jewish witnessess along with the 144,000 called out Jewish believers.

 

 

We must be careful not to decide what scripture says, but to take what it actually says.  So let's look at the 144,000 closely and find out what scripture says about them.  There are two chapters we have to gather information from, chapters 7 and 14.

 

Revelation 7  After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. ² Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: ³ “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” ⁴ Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

 

In chapter 7 we see them for the first time, there is no mention of witnessing, only that they get a seal "on their foreheads", and the information to establish that this group is Jewish.

 

The fact that their seal is on the forehead is important, why?  Where is our seal as believers?  This is all clarified by Paul in Romans 4, where he discusses the seal, circumcision.  It is speaking to the heart of an individual.  The seal is the Holy Spirit as established throughout the New Testament.  So why is their seal on the forehead?  Possibly because they do not yet believe?

 

To keep them from dying in their unbelief, the Lord does two things established in scripture:

 

First, He seals them on their foreheads.  This prevents them from being harmed by His judgements, as illustrated in the Exodus account and the last plague on Egypt.  The angel passed over the Jews because of the blood on the doorway, a seal meant to represent the blood of the Lamb.

 

Second, He will not allow Satan to get at them, as illustrated in Revelation 12.  They are safe, they are protected.  Now He must lead them to the truth, as illustrated through the prophets Hosea and Isaiah.

 

Revelation 14  Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. ² And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. ³ And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. ⁴ These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. ⁵ No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

 

When we see them again here in chapter 14, something has changed.  The Father's name is written on their foreheads, and they have clearly come to accept salvation.  They are before the throne now, which means they are no longer living on the earth as we know it.  And what are they doing?  No mention of witnessing, they sing a song only they can know, and they follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

 

They are not "144,000 witnesses" as they are so often referred to by many, they are simply 144,000.  What they will be doing during the tribulation is not specified in the information given, the idea of them being witnesses is not scriptural, but supposition to support a doctrine, a man-made doctrine.

 

I see that understanding the divisions of Israel and the Church to be necessary in order to obtain a correct understanding of end time events

 

 

I completely understand what you are saying here, for the majority of my life, I believed precisely the same thing you have presented.  However, I believe that to correctly understand these events, we must remove this division that we have placed there, which scripture warns us about.  It is not easy to look at these things without our present views clouding the picture, but it is possible if we examine scripture closely, one word at a time if necessary.

 

My response to you is not intended to be critical of you in any way, but more of a plea to at least weigh the matter.  Scripture will lead us to the truth, we cannot all be right considering the many varying viewpoints, this does not make anyone lesser.  If we do not come together and discuss these things, someone is not going to be prepared, that is the bottom line.

 

God bless.

[S.T. Ranger]

Hello Ranger,

I apologize for the delay in getting back to you, I appreciate you providing the material for me that I requested. I have read all of your posts in this thread, so first I want to be sure I understand your position as stated. Please correct me if I am wrong, I don't want to draw wrong conclusions or attribute something to your position that is inaccurate.

In an earlier post, you stated that the rapture is a resurrection. I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment considering we see dead bodies rising in each scriptural passage that are typically incorporated to this discussion. I am glad to see we agree on this critical point.

Now, as I understand your position we have:

1. The resurrection of the church.

2. The resurrection of the two witnesses.

3. The resurrection of believers that come out of the tribulation.

4. The resurrection of the dead following the millenium.

If I understood you correctly, you see the church and the two witnesses as the first resurrection to take place. Following that you have the resurrection of believers from the tribulation, and lastly the resurrection of the dead. Is that correct?

As long as you separate the Church being Raptured (which I view as taking place before the tribulation begins) and the rapture of the Two Witnesses (which I see taking place at the mid-point of the Tribulation). But yes, in that order.

God bless.

[Judith]

Hello Wingnut -

I can't respond to all that you wrote at this time as it will take me awhile to do so, and this isn't a good time for me. But I thought I could reply piece-meal - if that's okay.

I'll start with the following and hopefully be able to write more at a later time.

Wingnut stated the following:

"If I understand you correctly, we agree that the bride consists of all believers, both Jew and Gentile. The separation or division you suggest exists is also contrary to scripture.

Matthew 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.

Mark 3:25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: “Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall.

Make no mistake, any attempt to separate or draw distinctions between the two is dividing. In two of the three verses above, Jesus denotes "every kingdom" and "any kingdom", this would include His kingdom."

My reply -

The Mat. 12:25 verse that you quote, when taken in it's full context has to do with the "unpardonable sin" and has nothing, and does not contradict the teaching of the distinctions between the Church and Israel. Also, it does not apply to your belief that by teaching the distinctions brings division to the Kingdom. This is my understanding of the chapter.

The Kingdom age will consist of Israel, Gentiles, and the Church, however, each in their own place with distinctive purposes. These distinctions don't equate to the "division" or "dividing of the Kingdom" that you speak of.

Our home consists of a Father, Mother. children and a dog - each with a different purpose and place in the home. There is an owner of the property and on the property is a house which consists of a roof, a floor, walls, doors and windows. Along with the house is a garage and yard. Each has a distinctive purpose - some a part of the house and some outside the house yet belonging to the one owner of the house but not dividing the house from the owner. Likewise with the Church, Israel and Gentiles. We still have a Kingdom but with different players and purpose yet all a part of the same Kingdom and owner/ruler of that Kingdom.

The Kingdom is still standing and has suffered none of the effects you describe. The distinctions are part of the divisions that God ordained from the beginning and don't violate scripture as you so indicated. Note that dividing does not always mean destruction. We are told to "rightly divide the word of truth" and by doing so we can conclude that there is a class distinction or division between Israel and the Church - and does not imply that the House/Kingdom is left not "standing" as you state..

Wingnut said the following -

"Was Jesus not part of the promise God had with Israel in the old covenant? From His birth, to His ministry, to His death, to His resurrection, and what is still to come. God's plan has never changed, God does not change. He does not need to, He knew the end from the beginning, correct?

So, when God says any of these things; "His children", "His people", "His chosen ones", "His elect".....He is always addressing the same people. He knew us before we were conceived. He knows His sheep, and His sheep know Him. Ethnicity is not a factor to God, this separation you suggest is coming from man's understanding."

My reply -

You mention God's "children"; God's "people"; God's "chosen"; God's "elect". These classifications are equally true for Israel and the Church with differing

purposes and times for specific events such as the Rapture (for the church) and

the Tribulation (for Israel).

This is the best I can do for now. Hope this reply is satisfactory with an adequate explanation.

Blessings,

Judith

Edited December 25, 2014 by Judith

[Guest]

 

As I See It, Those Pretribulation Resurrection Believers (My Dear Wife For One)

 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

 

And Those Day Of The Lord's Wrath Resurrection Believers (Me)

 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:14-16

 

Hold Dearly To One Key Hope

 

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

 

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

 

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

 

The Resurrection

 

And this is the will of him that sent me,

 

that every one which seeth the Son,

 

and believeth on him,

 

may have everlasting life:

 

and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

 

As I See It

 

~

 

Merry Christmas Beloved~!

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[S.T. Ranger]

 

As I See It, Those Pretribulation Resurrection Believers (My Dear Wife For One)

 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

 

And Those Day Of The Lord's Wrath Resurrection Believers (Me)

 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:14-16

 

Hold Dearly To One Key Hope

 

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

 

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

 

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

 

The Resurrection

 

And this is the will of him that sent me,

 

that every one which seeth the Son,

 

and believeth on him,

 

may have everlasting life:

 

and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

 

As I See It

 

~

 

Merry Christmas Beloved~!

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

Merry Christmas, brother Joe!

It is true that most believers do not let their eschatology interfere with what we consider to take precedence, that is, a sound soteriological view, but our eschatological views do play a part in our soteriology. I use to think this was irrelevant, but do not take that view anymore, because the Rapture and resurrection in general, and what we understand about them, play a significant role in forming our eschatological views. Many that deny a pre-trib view also deny Eternal Security (and this is not true of everyone, just as it is not true that all pre-tribbers embrace Eternal Security), and I can't help but notice that many of these I speak to (pre-tribbers) feel that one is worthy to enter into God's presence through their own efforts of endurance (and this is seen as pictured in enduring through the Tribulation).

It all boils down to being able to show from Scripture that basis of belief, then in our own understanding. It is just my view that a pre-trib view is similar to a belief in Eternal Security, one cannot learn that from an intellectual approach, but it must be shown the believer by God Himself.

But again, Merry Christmas! I hope you and yours will be blessed on this day.

God bless.

[Guest]

It is just my view that a pre-trib view is similar to a belief in Eternal Security....

 

 

Amen Beloved~! And Eternal Security Has A Name

 

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29

 

And It's Spelled

 

Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Galatians 4:7

 

J-E-S-U-S

 

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

 

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

 

~

 

Stand Fast

 

Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; Philippians 1:26

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[S.T. Ranger]

It is just my view that a pre-trib view is similar to a belief in Eternal Security....

 

 

Amen Beloved~! And Eternal Security Has A Name

 

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29

 

And It's Spelled

 

Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Galatians 4:7

 

J-E-S-U-S

 

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

 

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

 

~

 

Stand Fast

 

Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; Philippians 1:26

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[wingnut-]

The Mat. 12:25 verse that you quote, when taken in it's full context has to do with the "unpardonable sin" and has nothing, and does not contradict the teaching of the distinctions between the Church and Israel. Also, it does not apply to your belief that by teaching the distinctions brings division to the Kingdom. This is my understanding of the chapter.

 

 

 

Hello again Judith,

 

I appreciate what you are saying, but I assure you I understand the context of the passages, so let's get right to the message of what is being said from your persective.  What is the "unpardonable sin?"  The easiest way to confirm this is to look at the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

How does one gain salvation?  Jesus Christ.  Therefore the opposite of this is to reject Him.  Most people commonly think of this as rejecting the Holy Spirit, although the overall message in scripture to me would be that it is rejecting Jesus Himself.  This in turn is rejecting all three members of the Trinity, so while both statements are true, the perspective changes things slightly.

 

My conclusion based on the overall message of scripture as I understand it is, that the "unpardonable sin" is rejecting Jesus Christ.

 

What I see in the passage from Matthew is this, starting from verse 22.

 

1.  Jesus casts out a demon and heals a man,

2.  The Pharisee's say he is on Satan's team.

3.  Jesus says, if I was on Satan's team I wouldn't be casting out demons.  No kingdom that divides itself will stand.  If I'm casting out demon's by the Spirit of God, it is because I'm on God's side. 

 

This is completely applicable, and based on my overall understanding of scripture is how I rightly divide the Word of God.  All things taught within scripture are for me, and you, and every other person.  They were applicable from the beginning, and they will be applicable to the end.  This is also one of the many messages that I take from scripture.  Where am I wrong in that?

 

I assure anyone reading this, I make no implications regarding eternal security for anyone.  I have more to add, but time has run out for me, Merry Christmas, and God bless you.