Authority of the Husband

[HAZARD]

On ‎30‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 2:04 PM, GoldenEagle said:

How do you define and quantify the word "authority"? 

God bless,

GE

 

[FresnoJoe]

7 hours ago, GoldenEagle said:

@Ariel16, @Ezra, @FresnoJoe, @other one, @Davida, @gdemoss, @Behold, @Butero, @worthy, @RustyAngeL, @HAZARD, They say a picture is worth a thousand words. So why not speak in pictures then to understand where each of us is coming from?

 

Which graphic 1 (Complimentary View), 2 (Patriarchal View), 3 (Church Leadership View), or 4 (Feel free to add your own) do you agree with the most? Why?

  

God bless,
GE

As For Number Two

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8

What~! No Man Is Papa

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. Matthew 23:8-11

Except The Man Who Came Down From God....

And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken. Ecclesiastes 4:12

[FresnoJoe]

On 8/28/2016 at 4:50 PM, HAZARD said:

Proverbs 31: 10-31;

      10, Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
     11, The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
     12, She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
     13, She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.

     14, She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
     15, She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
     16, She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
     17, She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
     18, She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.

     19, She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
     20, She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
     21, She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
     22, She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
     23, Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
     24, She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.

     25, Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
     26, She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
     27, She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.

     28, Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.

     29, Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
     30, Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
     31, Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

So, gentlemen, 1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Amen Brother~!

[GoldenEagle]

9 hours ago, GoldenEagle said:

@Ariel16, @Ezra, @FresnoJoe, @other one, @Davida, @gdemoss, @Behold, @Butero, @worthy, @RustyAngeL, @HAZARD, They say a picture is worth a thousand words. So why not speak in pictures then to understand where each of us is coming from?

Which graphic 1 (Complimentary View), 2 (Patriarchal View), 3 (Church Leadership View), or 4 (Feel free to add your own) do you agree with the most? Why?

God bless,
GE

I personally believe in #1. I used to lean more towards #2 until I dug a little deeper into it. 

The complimentary view can be described as follows: 

Quote

Complementarianism is a theological view held by some in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam,[1] that men and women have different but complementary roles and responsibilities in marriage, family life, religious leadership, and elsewhere. The word "complementary" and its cognates are currently used to denote this view. For some Christians whose complementarian view is biblically-prescribed, these separate roles preclude women from specific functions of ministry within the Church. Complementarians assign primary headship roles to men and support roles to women—based on their interpretation of certain biblical passages. One of the precepts of Complementarianism is that while women may assist in the decision-making process, the ultimate authority for the decision is the purview of the male in marriage, courtship, and in the polity of churches subscribing to this view.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complementarianism

Before you fall in love with #2 graphic here's a definition of Patriarchy. 

 

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

A careful look at the #2 Patriarchal view may bring up some issues. You guys might be interested to know that #2 was originally called the "Chain of Command." So coined by prominent cult leader Bill Gothard who founded the Institute in Basic Life Principles. Gothard takes the Patriarchal view to an unhealthy extreme. The role of the husband is distorted to mean that God speaks to a wife through her husband. And He only speaks to a wife or the children through her husband. 

Quote

 

Gothard’s view of authority is far more extreme. The wife must submit entirely to her husband, regardless of the rightness of his choices. She is allowed to appeal if he wishes her to sin. Of course, the definition of “sin” is incredibly and inexplicably narrow in this context, especially compared to the hyper-sinfulization [My own word…I am quite pleased with it!] of those not in the position of authority! If her appeal is denied, she may choose to suffer for doing right, but must continue to honor her husband, and look happy to the rest of the world, since any discontent in her countenance is a public shaming of her head. In addition to this, he teaches very strongly that the one under authority is the one responsible for change: In other words, if the husband does something wrong, it is all your fault. If you were only more submissive, more this, more that, you would please him and he wouldn’t do that. You can patch the leaks in your umbrella by just trying harder to submit. It is the perfect recipe for abuse.

Whatever God is speaking, he will speak to your husband/father. It doesn’t really matter what the topic is: A daughter’s future spouse, your callings and responsibilities, how you should spend your time, how you should raise your children. Any decision is between the father/husband and God, and the father/husband will let you know when he is ready to. Your responsibility is to cheerfully go along with it. Even if your father is not a believer (which is somehow also your fault, of course), you still have to rely on him to be the go-between between you and God.

Source: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/04/26/bill-gothards-umbrella-of-protection/

 

I would be very wary of this #1 view particularly when taken out of balance. Don't you think? 

God bless,
GE

[gdemoss]

On 8/30/2016 at 0:04 AM, GoldenEagle said:

How do you define and quantify the word "authority"? 

God bless,

GE

How do you define and quantify the words define and quantify?

Seriously though,  authority is a great topic of discussion.  It is very complex.  Many factors influence an individual's authority.  The basic foundation of authority is seen in Paul's simple definition:  The man was formed first then the woman.  

Jesus was a different story all together.  He was given all authority in heaven and earth.  That simply means that whatever he says stands.  But before he was given such authority, he was subject unto Mary and Joseph as it is written.

We have whatever authority that God has given us to be used to serve those under our care.  

Authority can be abused but a price is always paid for it.

Paul spoke of his authority when he mentioned that he would not spare due to it being the third time coming.  

There is but one God.  The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against those who hold the truth in unrighteousness.  I learn my place by watching what God does when I speak the words he lays on my heart.  

When my wife first came to me I sat her in my living room and then came in with a pot of water and a towel.  I began to move to wash her feet and she protested.  I explained that she could have no part with me except she allow me to serve her this way.  She did.  I realize that as Master of my home I set the president for those whom I am over to follow.  I give license by that which I do.  For this cause I believe Paul penned the words to bishops and deacons about keeping families in subjection with all gravity and James wrote that if we offend not in word or deed we could guide all.

I believe in the power of words for in the beginning God said and it was.  He spoke to things that weren't as if they were and they became.

We have been give the power to become the sons of God that we might serve others.  For by the obedience of one many were made righteous and the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.  

So we speak to edify that we might build instead of destroy though we equally have the same power to kill for it is written life and death are in the power of the tongue.  We can bite and devour one another and be consumed of each other. 

Rebuke not an elder but entreat him as a father.  This too speaks of authority via seniority.  Respect your elders they always said. 

I am still practising and learning of God's ways that I might become more effective in utilizing the authority given me wisely.  Just because I am given authority does not mean others must obey.  But I have learned that obedience brings blessing and disobedience a curse when God has given authority to someone.  They told me when I first got saved "listen to what people say then watch what happens."  For we are judged by every idle word.

I believe in the power of words.  Something tried to trouble me about sales this month.  We were slumping hanging at 46k rolling 30 day average.  I answered the voice aloud saying "Lord willing, we will hit 50k by the end of the month.  We did $50,085.06

Jon, I am but a babe in Christ.  Thank you for being kind!

[proverbs35]

On 8/22/2016 at 3:02 PM, Ariel16 said:

So what is everyone's interpretation on Genesis 3:16 which says,

To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”

 

How do you understand this?

Gen 3:16 is DESCRIPTIVE rather than INSTRUCTIVE. It DESCRIBES how the relationship between husband and wife was affected after the fall of mankind.

The whole women covet man's authority idea based on Gen 3:16 is a relatively new interpretation of that verse. It is not the traditional interpretation of Genesis 3:16. Susan Foh introduced that interpretation in the 1970s in an effort to fight 2nd wave feminism. However, prior to that time, that was not the interpretation used or accepted by Biblical scholars and translators for centuries.

Bible translations and lexicons prior to the 1970s Susan Foh interpretation refer to DESIRE as a "longing for." The Hebrew word translated “desire” is used three times in the Old Testament: Genesis 3:16, Genesis 4:7 and Song of Solomon 7:10. In the Song of Solomon 7:10, it refers to sexual desire which is the traditional interpretation of it.

Wendy Alsup expounds on Susan Foh and the longstanding historical interpretation of Gen 3:16.

http://theologyforwomen.org/2012/04/a-somewhat-scholarly-analysis-of-genesis-316.html

I truly believe the Message Bible translates it best:

He told the Woman: "I'll multiply your pains in childbirth; you'll give birth to your babies in pain. You'll want to please your husband, but he'll lord it over you." Gen 3:16

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, Butero said:

Why not use Gothard's actual material?

Gothard was a false teacher and "umbrella of protection" is NOT the teaching of the Bible.  

God-delegated authority is the correct teaching. God had delegated authority to genuine elders over each local church practicing Bible Christianity.  At the same time He has delegated authority to each Christian husband over His wife and family. Authority can be perverted, but authority is not tyranny, since Christ is the authority over the Church.

[proverbs35]

16 hours ago, Butero said:

I am a bit skeptical about someone coming in and stating what Bill Gothard is teaching.  Why not use Gothard's actual material?  It seems to me you ordered it in the past so you could do that.  I think there is some spin going on here.  Still, I agree for the most part even with the spin, but not entirely.  I believe the husband's authority is absolute unless he tells his wife to sin.  There is no need for an appeals process.  She doesn't have to commit sin, even if he orders her to.  God is over everyone, and even in the case of earthly government, we are to obey the authorities unless they demand we sin. 

I don't believe a Father has the authority to pick a woman's spouse.  There is nothing in scripture that says a woman must go along with that.  I don't believe that a woman can't hear from God while praying on her own.  I just believe that there is a clear chain of authority, and the husband has the final say.  If he says something is right or wrong, his judgment is final, unless it is a sin issue like if he demands his wife go out and get drunk or join a swinger's club or get an abortion, like someone mentioned their husband was demanding of them recently.  The husband can't demand his wife sin.  His authority doesn't extend that far, but he can demand anything else.  That doesn't necessarily mean he should.  I personally don't think it is wise to try to keep a wife from visiting her family or having friends as some men do.  I don't think requiring her to be a perfect housekeeper or have dinner on the table at a precise time or else is the way to go.  In my opinion, it is better to pick your battles, but ultimately, when push comes to shove, the husband's authority is absolute under Christ.  That is what the Bible teaches. 

You say a husband has absolute authority over his wife but then you acknowledge that his authority is limited when you said, " The husband can't demand his wife to sin.  His authority doesn't extend that far,"

Those are contradictory statements. They do not line up with the definition for the word absolute.

Absolute is defined as:
: complete and total
: not limited in any way
: having unlimited power
Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary

A husband's authority is not absolute - complete, total or unlimited. A husband's authority over his wife is conditional and limited. What are those conditions/limits? As you acknowledged, a husband does not have the authority to demand his wife to sin. That's an example of limited authority rather than absolute authority.

Jesus is the only absolute authority in the universe, and he alone deserves that honor, privilege and responsibility.

Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority (all power of ABSOLUTE rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Matt 28:18 AMP

Absolute authority was given to Jesus not husbands. Limited authority was given to husbands and other human authorities.

[Ezra]

31 minutes ago, proverbs35 said:

" The husband can't demand his wife to sin.  His authority doesn't extend that far,"

It is not really necessary to quibble over this point.  It is a given. What modern Christians forget are the words of God to Eve at the very beginning:

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.