Why are people denying that Christ is presently a King?

[Guest shiloh357]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

Glad you agree that Jesus is King now. `And I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of Heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left.` (1 Kings 22: 19) And yes I agree that He is yet to operate as King on King David`s throne. However there is nowhere on scripture that says that the Lord will operate physically on earth.

Marilyn.

Since I see no reason to re-invent the wheel, here is a list of Scriptures from a great site that explains why Jesus will eventually reign on earth.

I believe Jesus is returning to reign on earth because the Old Testament prophets say so.

1) The Psalms

• Psalm 2:6-9 — David says the Messiah will reign over “the very ends of the earth” from Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
• Psalm 22:27-31 — David again affirms that the Messiah will be given dominion over “the ends of the earth” at the time when He “rules over the nations.”
• Psalm 47 — The sons of Korah rejoice over the day when the Lord will be “a great King over all the earth,” and they state that this will take place when the Lord subdues the “nations under our feet.”
• Psalm 67 — An unidentified psalmist speaks prophetically of the time when the nations of the world will “be glad and sing for joy.” This will be when the Lord comes to “judge the peoples with uprightness.” At that time the Lord will “guide the nations on the earth” so that “all the ends of the earth may fear Him.”
• Psalm 89:19-29 — The psalmist, Ethan, speaks of the Davidic Covenant and proclaims that it will be fulfilled when God makes His “first-born the highest of the kings of the earth.”
• Psalm 110 — David says a time will come when God will make the enemies of the Messiah a footstool under His feet. This will occur when the Messiah stretches forth His “strong scepter from Zion.” At that time He will “rule in the midst of His enemies,” for… “He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath, He will judge among the nations.”
• Psalm 132:13-18 — An unnamed psalmist speaks of God’s fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant. He says this will occur at a time when “the horn of David” springs forth to reign from Zion. He says “His crown will shine,” and He will make Zion His “resting place forever” for He will dwell there.

2) Isaiah

• Isaiah 2:1-4 — Isaiah says that “in the last days” the Messiah will reign from Mount Zion in Jerusalem and the entire world will experience peace.
• Isaiah 9:6-7 — The Messiah will rule from the throne of David, giving the world a government of peace, justice, and righteousness. (Note: The throne of David is not in Heaven. It is located in Jerusalem — see Psalm 122. Jesus is not now on the throne of David. He sits at the right hand of His Father on His Father’s throne — see Revelation 3:21.)
• Isaiah 11:3b-9 — The Messiah will bring “righteousness and fairness” to the earth when He returns to “slay the wicked.” At that time, the curse will be lifted and the plant and animal kingdoms will be restored to their original perfection.
• Isaiah 24:21-23 — When the Messiah returns, He will punish Satan and his demonic hordes in the heavens and then will punish “the kings of the earth, on earth.” He will then “reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem” for the purpose of manifesting His glory.

3) Jeremiah

• Jeremiah 23:5 — “‘Behold, the days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I shall raise up for David a righteous Branch; and He will reign as king and act wisely and do justice and righteousness in the land.'” (Note: The term, “Branch,” is a Messianic title.)
• Jeremiah 33:6-18 — A day will come when the Lord will regather the dispersed of both Judah and Israel and will save a great remnant. At that time the Lord “will cause a rigthteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth.”

4) Ezekiel

• Ezekiel 20:33-44 — The Lord says a day will come when He will regather the Jews to their land and will “enter into judgment” with them. He says that at that time “I shall be king over you.” He then adds that “the whole house of Israel, all of them, will serve Me in the land.”
• Ezekiel 37:24-28 — The Lord says that He will dwell in the midst of Israel after a remnant of the Jews is regathered to the land and saved, and He promises that “David My servant shall be their prince forever.”
• Ezekiel 39:21-29 — The Lord says that following the battle of Armageddon (verses 17-20), “I will set My glory among the nations; and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them.”
• Ezekiel 43:7 — While being given a tour of the future Millennial Temple, Ezekiel is told by the Lord: “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet; where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever.”

5) Daniel

• Daniel 7:13-14,18,27 — Daniel says he was given a vision in which he saw the Messiah (“Son of Man”) given dominion over all the earth by God the Father (“the Ancient of Days”). And then he adds in verses 18 and 27 that the kingdom is shared “with the saints of the Highest One,” and they are allowed to exercise sovereignty with Him over “all the kingdoms under the whole heaven.”

6) Hosea

• Hosea 3:4-5 — The Jews will be set aside “for many days,” but a time will come “in the last days” when they “will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king.”

7) Joel

• Joel 3:14-17,21 — Joel says that following the battle of Armageddon (verses 14-16), the Lord will dwell “in Zion, My holy mountain.” He repeats this in verse 21. And in verse 17 He identifies Zion as the city of Jerusalem.

8) Micah

• Micah 4:1-7 — Micah repeats in greater detail the prophecy contained in Isaiah 2. Like Isaiah, he says the Lord will make Jerusalem the capital of the world. The world will be flooded with peace and prosperity. All believing Jews will be regathered to Israel, and “the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion.”

9) Zephaniah

• Zephaniah 3:14-20 — This entire book is devoted to a description of the day the Lord will return to the earth in vengeance. The prophet says that at the end of that day, when the Lord’s enemies have been destroyed, the Jewish remnant will shout in triumphant joy because “the King of Israel, the Lord,” will be in their midst.

10) Haggai

• Haggai 2:20-23 — The Lord says that a day will come when He will “overthrow the thrones of kingdoms and destroy the power of the kingdoms of the nations.” Then, using Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, as a type of the Messiah, the prophet adds: “‘On that day,’ declares the Lord of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, my servant,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you,’ declares the Lord of hosts.” The reference to the signet ring means the Father will grant His Son ruling authority.

11) Zechariah

• Zechariah 2:10-13 — The Lord says that when He comes, He will “dwell in the midst” of the Jews, possessing Judah as “His portion in the holy land” and again choosing Jerusalem.
• Zechariah 6:12-13 — When the Messiah (“the Branch”) returns, He will build a temple and “rule on His throne,” and the offices of priest and king will be combined in Him. Thus, “He will be a priest on His throne.”
• Zechariah 8:2-3 — The Lord promises that when He returns to Zion, He will “dwell in the midst of Jerusalem,” and Jerusalem will be called “the city of Truth.”<
• Zechariah 9:10 — The Messiah will bring peace to the nations and “His dominion will be from sea to sea.”
• Zechariah 14:1-9 — The Messiah will return to the Mount of Olives. The Mount will split in half when His foot touches it, and the Jewish remnant left alive in Jerusalem will flee the city and hide in the cleavage of the Mount. Verse 9 says that on that day, “the Lord will become king over all the earth.”

I believe Jesus is returning to reign over the earth because the New Testament prophets say so.

1) Peter

• Acts 3:21 — In his sermon on the portico of Solomon, Peter says Jesus must remain in Heaven “until the period of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.” The period of restoration spoken of here will occur during the Millennium when the curse is partially lifted and nature is restored (Romans 8:18-23).

2) Paul

• 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 — Paul says that when Jesus returns “dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel,” He will also come for the purpose of being glorified before His saints. The return of Jesus to be glorified before His saints and all the nations of the world is one of the persistent themes of Old Testament prophecy (Isaiah 24:23, Isaiah 52:10,13, Isaiah 61:3, and Psalm 46:10).
• 2 Timothy 2:12 — Paul says “if we endure, we shall also reign with Him.”

3) John

• Revelation 12:5 — John sees a vision in which a sun clothed woman (Israel) gives birth to a male child (Jesus) “who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.”
• Revelation 19:15-16 — In his description of Jesus returning to earth, John says He bears the title, “King of kings and Lord of lords,” and John says He will “rule the nations with a rod of iron.”
• Revelation 20:4,6 — John says that after the return of Jesus to the earth, He will reign with His saints (“those to whom judgment has been given”) for a thousand years.

I believe Jesus is returning to earth to reign because the Heavenly Host say so.

1) Gabriel

• Luke 1:26-38 — When the archangel Gabriel appeared to Mary, he told her that she would bear a son named Jesus who would be called “the Son of the Most High.” He then added three promises that are yet to be fulfilled: “the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end.”

2) The Four Living Creatures and the 24 Elders

• Revelation 5:9-10 — When John is raptured to Heaven and finds himself standing before the throne of God (Revelation 4), he hears “the four living creatures” (special angelic creatures called seraphim in Isaiah 6) and “the twenty-four elders” (probably representative of the redeemed) singing a song of praise to Jesus. In this song they say that Jesus is a Worthy Lamb who has made His redeemed a kingdom, “and they will reign upon the earth.”

3) The Angels of God

• Revelation 11:15 — Voices from Heaven make a proleptic proclamation in the midst of the Tribulation: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” (Note: A proleptic statement is one that speaks of a future event as if it has already occurred. This is a common form of expression in prophecy because all future events are settled in the mind of God as if they had already happened in history.)

4) The Tribulation Martyrs

• Revelation 15:3-4 — At the end of the Tribulation, right before the final pouring out of God’s wrath in the form of the bowl judgments, all the Tribulation martyrs who are in Heaven join together in singing “the song of Moses… and the song of the Lamb.” In that song, they declare the Lamb (Jesus) to be the “King of the nations,” and they proclaim that “all the nations will come and worship before Thee.”

I believe Jesus is returning to reign on the earth because Jesus said so.

• Matthew 19:28 — Jesus said that during “the regeneration” (the same time as “the period of restoration” referred to by Peter in Acts 3:21), He will “sit on His glorious throne,” and the Apostles will join Him in judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
• Matthew 25:31 — Jesus said that when He returns in glory, “the Son of Man… will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him” for judgment. The throne of Jesus is the throne of David which has always been located in only one place — in Jerusalem (see Isaiah 9:6-7 and Psalm 122).
• Acts 1:3-6 — Luke says that Jesus spent 40 days teaching His disciples about the kingdom of God. Then, as He was ready to ascend into Heaven, one of the disciples asked, “Lord is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” The question indicates that Jesus taught a time would come when the kingdom would be restored to Israel. Jesus’ response to the question indicated the same thing. He did not rebuke the question. Rather, He simply said it was not for them to know the times and seasons when the kingdom would be restored to Israel.
• Revelation 2:26-27 — Jesus says that He has a special reward for any “overcomer” who keeps His deeds until the end: “To him I will give authority over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron.”
• Revelation 3:21 — Jesus makes it clear that the overcomers will reign jointly with Him: “He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” Again, the throne of Jesus is the throne of David (Luke 1:32 and Revelation 3:7). The throne of David is in Jerusalem, not in Heaven (Psalm 122). Jesus currently shares His Father’s throne. He is not sitting on His own throne and will not do so until He returns to this earth. Then He will allow the redeemed to share His throne with Him.     http://christinprophecy.org/articles/the-biblical-evidence-that-jesus-is-returning-to-reign/

[Spock]

Good luck rebutting all those references Shiloh posted.  I'm sure an article like that I previously read that convinced me, if I had any doubts, that Christ would rule on Earth. After all, he is coming back. Doesn't it make sense to think he is coming back to hang around, instead of going right back up after he kicks some booty and establishes his order? I will be watching you closely to see how you reply to Shilohs post. 

As to your Psalm 47 reference, it's not as clear to me. First off, I believe it makes sense to also associate David as THE David we all know and love from the OT- the man after gods own heart. I don't think the name David is a coincidence here. 

Secondly, it says in c. 2 "he is king over all the earth."  I think he has to be on earth to be king, and this is the Morse logical meaning. I know he can rule up above but this is not logical to my thinking, and you know how logical I am in my thinking. 

When it says God has ascended with a shout in v. 5, I would not put to much stock in that to mean he physically goes up after the sheep and goal judgment. That could have other meanings.

Again v7, says he is king over all the earth.....I think he has to be here for that to have power. 

V8 said God rules over all nations and sits on his HOLY throne.  I see you interpret Holy to mean throne in Heaven.  Well, he is ruling somewhat in Heaven now, but Gain, I think his rule will be earthly for the 1000 years. 

Again, Marilyn, I know this doesn't mean much, but I think COMMON SENSE dictates Christ physical return and rule on Earth for the 1000 yrs.  and of course, there is a tremendous amount of scripture that you can use to support that position. It is much more cogent than the dew you may have. If psalm 47 is your number one source, I find that wanting. 

Spock out

 

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Shiloh

http://christinprophecy.org/articles/the-biblical-evidence-that-jesus-is-returning-to-reign/

Can't stop reading ,lol    thanks,interesting site!    I do like 'Christ in Prophecy" with Jones & Reagan

[Marcus O'Reillius]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

So if we are ruling & reigning with Christ on earth is that the wondrous inheritance you are looking forward to - seeing others die through famine, plague etc??

You have a problem with God's sense of Justice?

And this is worse than what we have now, how?

There is a God and we're not Him.  Our thoughts are not His Thoughts, and our ways are not His Ways.

[Daniel 11:36]

True

[Your closest friendnt]

16 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

 

I believe the 1,000 year reign of

Israel 

over the nations  is

Hi Marilyn, I do not mean to challenge you, and you using the word "Israel", and knowing that Jacob name was changed to "Israel", within this context "Israel" is referring to an individual, his family still call him Jacob, and Jacob was their Patriarch. 

To God he was ISRAEL. 

To Farraw God said: ISRAEL is my first born, 

He didn't not say "the nation of Israel", he said Israel. 

Farraw was pleading on his behalf, he was asking God to be his God also. 

Farraw had everything but not the greater God of all, greater than all other Gods of Egypt and the world. 

(The Gods of Egypt were the greatest Gods in the whole earth, I didn't say in the whole world to include the God of Hades. 

For the Gods of Egypt try to free their Gods from Hades and could not bring them back. 

They were right that one day the one to defeat Hades will come, that's is JESUS CHRIST, who took the keys from Hades. 

But Jesus did not need the boddies of those he will free from Hades to take them to Heaven. 

See that we do not make the same philosophical  insinuation as the Egyptians did. 

"ISRAEL" when it is use alone, is referring only to singular and never to plural. Is referring to a single unit, only to an individual. 

The "Nation of Israel" is also singular, but is referring to a lot of people, who have the common characteristics of a Nation . 

A Nation is not defined by borders, many Nations can be found within a territory, a Nation may exist without a territory define by borders and is not restricted within a territory define by borders. 

Example is the Persian, and Greek and Roman, Arabic Nations, Jewish, the Armenian Nations,   which are spread all over the world, and can be define as Nations. 

Nations also can be of a different nature, political, cultural, Nations of different kinds of movements. The Hillary Nation, the Trump Nation, the Anarchist Nation (that's a good example ). 

The Hockey , baseball, football, all those are great examples of Nations, without mentioning and considering any religious affiliation, just sports affiliations, and someone can belong to a sports Nation and also to one of the subsports Nations, within the primary Nation of Sports. 

And we also can have a subnations within a Nation. 

We can have Spiritual Nations, the Nation of JESUS CHRIST ,

( Who JESUS is also  called ISRAEL), 

A Nation of his spirit, who also has subnations, within , but all of them they can not exist without him. 

And his Nation is all over the earth, and has nothing to do with the physical DNA. 

Which Nation conquer every other Spiritual Power on its path. 

It takes from other Nations , even the Atheistic and the Antichrist Nation, JESUS as a King reins over all of them, in a different way than he reins over his own Nation. He reins over all the other authorities, and spiritual powers, for they are subjected to him and put under his feet, nothing and no one can stand on his way, he goes within their territories he frees he takes out and he establishing his own National subjects within their territory, his own Nation among their midst. 

JESUS CHRIST reins since the Cross. 

He Rein when he went to Hades, or Sheol for three days, and establish the begining the first fruits of his Nation down there  within the Kingdom of the Devil, and he said to Pilot, if I don't die on the Cross I will not inherit my Kingdom which is not a physical Kingdom but it also exist within this  physical world,

And I will come back to this world, I will not stay down there in Hades forever, me and my Nation are coming out from there. 

 soon very soon your wife will be part of my Kingdom, even thought she still will be your wife and a noble Roman, but I will take her out of the Kingdom of their Gods with their descending Spiritual inheritance and she will be mine and I will give her from my spirit and I will be her God and she will be mine, and  I will be here with her and will take her to her  ascending inheritance, and no one, and nothing can stop me. 

And no accusations of any short against her shall prosper. 

She will overcome all of their accusers by her testimony that she is under my blood , the blood of Jesus Christ. 

And guess who will be the Judge, Jesus Christ, the slain lamb, and who will be her accuser and the prosecutor, not the Devil in person , never in person , he has been ban from Heaven, in thought yes, and he is often represented by his agents, some of them and most of the time carry Bibles and firstly arguing that Jesus send them to Hell. 

Even using his words from the Scriptures. 

They are blind to the fact that they, the accused are under the blood of the Lamb. 

They claim that they are not worthy to be under his blood. 

Or that they are not really under his blood, they only think that they are, 

Trying to put corrective lenses to Jesus Christ to Judge they way they judge. 

JESUS CHRIST is the Judge of all, since his death, and he reins as the Judge of all in Heaven and on Earth and the things under the earth for evermore. 

JESUS said : David called his Lord God " THE CHRIST TO BE", 

And Jesus said : how can you say that the CHRIST will actually come from the seed of David. 

When the CHRIST to be was the Lord of David, and not the seed of David. 

 

Quote

physically in this world. However I believe that the Lord reigns `far above all` as God exalted Him to that position, & He will reign through a regent king, training Israel to rule the nations as promised in the OT.

`For behold, the days are coming , says the Lord, that I will bring back from captivity my people Israel & Judah, says the Lord. And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. ........they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king whom I will raise up for them.` (Jer. 3): 3 & 9)

 

 

Quote

 

This regent king David is not King David of old but a man who will rule & have sons.

 

Quote

`Thus says the Lord, "If the prince gives a gift of his inheritance to any of his sons, it shall belong to his sons; it is their possession by inheritance.` (Ez. 46: 16)

Marilyn.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, Spock said:

 

Again, Marilyn, I know this doesn't mean much, but I think COMMON SENSE dictates Christ physical return and rule on Earth for the 1000 yrs.  

Spock out

 

Hi dear bro, Spock,

So commonsense ay. Yes I agree, so let`s have a look. I would like to ask you some questions and see what your commonsense tells you. First I`ll write a few scriptures concerning the Body of Christ.

`…you have come to……the general assembly. The Church of the first-born who are registered in heaven…` (Heb. 12: 23)

`For our citizenship is in heaven…` (Phil. 3: 20)

`Therefore holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling…` (Heb. 3: 1)

`…the hope which is laid up for you in heaven..` (Col. 1: 5)

`…to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you…` (1 Peter 1: 4)

 

So Spock, what does your commonsense tell you regarding these thoughts –

We know that in the millennium that         

- They will beat their swords into ploughshares & their spears into pruning-hooks, (Micah 4: 3)

- They will rebuild the old ruins & repair the ruined cities, (Isa. 61: 4)

- People live long lives but they eventually die, (Isa. 65: 20)

- People will have a plague sent among them if they do not come up to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles & worship the king, (Zech. 14: 17 & 18)

- Satan will finally gather the nations and surround  Jerusalem. (Rev. 20: 7 – 9)

 

So is this the heaven you have hope for, called to, registered in & a citizen of?  

Is this the inheritance that is  `incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,` ?

Is this where you believe you will rule & reign with Christ on His throne?

 

What does your commonsense say there bro?

Interested, Marilyn.

(BTW I am preparing notes for Shiloh too……Glad you are interested. Always good to discuss God`s word carefully together.)

 

[Marilyn C]

17 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Since I see no reason to re-invent the wheel, here is a list of Scriptures from a great site that explains why Jesus will eventually reign on earth.

I believe Jesus is returning to reign on earth because the Old Testament prophets say so.

1) The Psalms

• Psalm 2:6-9 — David says the Messiah will reign over “the very ends of the earth” from Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
• Psalm 22:27-31 — David again affirms that the Messiah will be given dominion over “the ends of the earth” at the time when He “rules over the nations.”
• Psalm 47 — The sons of Korah rejoice over the day when the Lord will be “a great King over all the earth,” and they state that this will take place when the Lord subdues the “nations under our feet.”
•  
• Psalm 132:13-18 — An unnamed psalmist speaks of God’s fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant. He says this will occur at a time when “the horn of David” springs forth to reign from Zion. He says “His crown will shine,” and He will make Zion His “resting place forever” for He will dwell there.

2) Isaiah

•  
• Isaiah 11:3b-9 — The Messiah will bring “righteousness and fairness” to the earth when He returns to “slay the wicked.” At that time, the curse will be lifted and the plant and animal kingdoms will be restored to their original perfection.

 

1) Peter

• Acts 3:21 — In his sermon on the portico of Solomon, Peter says Jesus must remain in Heaven “until the period of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.” The period of restoration spoken of here will occur during the Millennium when the curse is partially lifted and nature is restored (Romans 8:18-23).

Hi Shiloh,

How wonderful to read all those scriptures concerning our precious glorious risen Lord who will rule over this world. Thank you for posting them as it so gladdens our heart to read of the promises and the fulfillment as God said.

Now we don`t disagree there, so it`s just a matter of HOW the Lord will reign over the earth - physically on the earth or  over the earth, through Israel from heaven.

1.The Psalms. You will note that they say `over ` not `on` the earth.

To `dwell there,` is the same as `the Lord of hosts is with us, `(Ps. 46: 11) etc meaning that God is with them, or dwelling with them by His Holy Spirit.

 

2. Isaiah. You will note that in Isa. 11: 6 - 9  it is not as you suggest that -

At that time, the curse will be lifted and the plant and animal kingdoms will be restored to their original perfection.

It is only on God`s holy mountain -`they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain.` (v. 9) It is not world wide. Death has not been destroyed in the millennium. It is the last to be done away with as we know, at the end of the millennium. (1 Cor. 15: 26)

 

I will now address the 2 topics which come up in the other scriptures you posted - The Times of Restoration & the Throne of David.

 

The Times of Restoration

`The times of restorations of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 21)

You said this will happen in the millennium. However the OT prophets spoke of an earlier authority that needed to be restored, in the third heaven. This was spoken of by the prophets Ezekiel(28) & Isaiah(14). They told how Lucifer, the most glorious angel had a throne, but because of his pride he was cast out of the angelic realm & positions of authority there have never been filled.

The prophet Daniel tells us that `thrones were put in place,` & `the heavenly court was seated.` (Dan. 7: 9 & 26) Then the Apostle Paul was given a revelation of the Body of Christ judging the world system & angels. These are shown in Rev. 4 represented by the 24 elders around the throne.

Once authority & power is restored in the highest created realm, then other authorities can come under the Lordship of Christ.

 

The Throne of David

 This is the earthly authority that will rule in the millennium & the ages to come. King David was promised that his throne would continue forever. And we know that it is the Lord who is will take up that rulership.

Now the Lord was before David - `I am the root & offspring of David ..` (Rev. 22: 16) To be the Root of David means in figurative language that He is the source of David`s being, his ability and authority. And that authority is not of the earth.

`My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight, ….but my kingdom is not from here.` (John 18: 36)

The Lord`s authority is given by the Father -

God….`seated Him (Christ) in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named , not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)

Let us not try & bring the Lord down in our minds to a mere earthly authority when His Father has given Him authority far above all in this age & the one to come.

regards, Marilyn.

[Spock]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi dear bro, Spock,

So commonsense ay. Yes I agree, so let`s have a look. I would like to ask you some questions and see what your commonsense tells you. First I`ll write a few scriptures concerning the Body of Christ.

`…you have come to……the general assembly. The Church of the first-born who are registered in heaven…` (Heb. 12: 23)

`For our citizenship is in heaven…` (Phil. 3: 20)

`Therefore holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling…` (Heb. 3: 1)

`…the hope which is laid up for you in heaven..` (Col. 1: 5)

`…to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you…` (1 Peter 1: 4)

 

So Spock, what does your commonsense tell you regarding these thoughts –

We know that in the millennium that         

- They will beat their swords into ploughshares & their spears into pruning-hooks, (Micah 4: 3)

- They will rebuild the old ruins & repair the ruined cities, (Isa. 61: 4)

- People live long lives but they eventually die, (Isa. 65: 20)

- People will have a plague sent among them if they do not come up to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles & worship the king, (Zech. 14: 17 & 18)

- Satan will finally gather the nations and surround  Jerusalem. (Rev. 20: 7 – 9)

 

So is this the heaven you have hope for, called to, registered in & a citizen of?  

Is this the inheritance that is  `incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,` ?

Is this where you believe you will rule & reign with Christ on His throne?

 

What does your commonsense say there bro?

Interested, Marilyn.

(BTW I am preparing notes for Shiloh too……Glad you are interested. Always good to discuss God`s word carefully together.)

 

Shabbat Shalom Marilyn,

thanks for your response.  This is one we will just have to agree to disagree. You have your verses and Shiloh showed you the verses I think rule. Honestly, this is not big enough an issue for me to pursue, so we shall see when we see, right? Hopefully in our lifetime.

cheers,

spock

[Retrobyter]

On 4/5/2017 at 5:38 AM, Limey_Bob said:

I have revised my first post, I spent hours on this. I hope that it clarifies my position further. thank you. Might I clarify that I do welcome constructive criticism, I do make mistakes, my posts and claims are not perfect or gospel truth, there are merely my opinions and I can get things wrong. However folks, please address what i actually say, and do not misrepresent me as some in these forums have done, as nobody will learn from somebody dismissing straw man arguments against my claims.

 

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I am shocked at people denying Christ's work as King (REVISED POST):

 

On another thread, I posted at length on a thread attempting to prove that Christ is currently King over his Kingdom, this Kingdom rule is spiritual, for since his ascension into heaven, Christ has been ruling as King over his saints (but primarily the dead saints in heaven), this is not some geographic reign upon this earth, but a spiritual reign, over all of his saints, which will last until his second coming. Thus Revelation 20:4 calls his subjects "souls" for they are disincarnate spirits in what is called, the intermediate state. Theologian Robert Redmond in his book: "New Systematic Theology of the Christian faith" on page 990, footnote 18 confirms this interpretation, for he states that the "Kingdom of Heaven / Kingdom of God," both terms being fully interchangeable: "refers primarily to the reign, dominion or rule of God, and only secondarily to the realm over which his reign is exercised."

 

It has therefore shocked me that I have been personally and repeatedly attacked, as both a (non-Christian) deist, as well as somebody who has been "seduced by the enemy" (meaning Satan), for advocating orthodox Christian theology, which would be accepted world-world in any number of non-American Fundamentalist Christian Churches for two thousand years. I am not some heretic for advocating orthodoxy, American evangelicals might regard their own particular brand of Fundamentalism as "the only Christian truth," but the reality is that other Christians regard theology differently, and as I have discovered, the ungraciousness, and the deliberate misrepresentations of their opponents position discredits their own testimony.

 

Possibly the only way to discuss this online, is in a one on one moderated debate, as it seems that tempers quickly rise, but most annoying of all, it seems that no attempt whatsoever is made to even listen to the other side, by some, who delight in then dictating to the other side a series of deliberate "straw man" misrepresentations which are simply designed to discredit me and my statements. When this happens no discussion is even possible, as one side is simply refusing to be fair. May I therefore throw open the offer of a one on one debate. I will outline below a few corrections of the most obvious errors which people have accused me of promoting, I may not respond to posts here in this thread, for the simple reason that I expect to be ignored and constantly misrepresented, however, a one on one debate does interest me.

 

·         Am I a Preterist?  No I am not, I reject the preterist claim that all prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70! So as far as I am concerned, much of the Book of Revelation has still to be fulfilled, such as the appearance of the beast, the false prophet and the forcible implementation of the mark 666 of chapter 13. Although I cannot yet prove it, I suspect that this mark will include a DNA upgrade, a genetic modification of human DNA, so that Christ cannot then save people who are no longer fully human.

 

·         Am I a deist?  No, I am not. God is not some wound up clock, moved by nature. God is Triune, an eternal omnipotent being who possesses self-will and sovereignty. In the 1980s I was briefly a Oneness Pentecostal, so the Trinity is now vital to me.

 

·         Do I believe in the rapture? That depends on how you define the rapture? For some people in this forum, whom I note are both American and Fundamentalist, the rapture is defined as "thinking exactly as I do," so by that definition I must reject the rapture. However, if by the rapture you mean that on the last day and at the last hour, the people of God are caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air, then I would say that I would certainly agree with that particular definition of the rapture.

 

·         Being a Post-Millennialist don't I believe that things will get better and better? No I do not expect an ever improving world. I have pointed out repeatedly that not all Pre-Millennialists or Post-Millennialists believe and teach exactly the very same thing. The great 19th century Baptist Preacher C. H. Spurgeon was a Pre-Millennialist, yet his type of Pre-Millennialism rejected the rapture, and the dividing up the Jews from the Church, which almost all American Pre-Millennialists, being dispensationalist futurists teach. So likewise, my own Post-Millennialism sees the Kingdom (since the ascension and until the second coming), as a spiritual Kingdom which is currently situated in heaven, and I would not regard it as currently a geographic physical Kingdom upon this earth, created by things getting better and better due to a "Millennial Reign," as most Post-Millennialists have claimed.

 

·         Do I regard the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven as two different Kingdoms?  No, God only has one people (Galatians 3:28), and one Kingdom, Robert Redmond in his "New Systematic Theology of the Christian faith" on page 538, points out that the terms "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven" are interchangeable (contrast Matthew 13:11 with Mark 4:11 and Luke 8:10); so "both terms refer to the sovereign rule of God." Remember that Redmond, on page 990, footnote 18 points our that the term "Kingdom;" "refers primarily to the reign, dominion or rule of God, and only secondarily to the realm over which his reign is exercised." So when I talk about the Kingdom, I am referring to something which I'd regard as currently spiritual, whilst almost all Post-Millennialists and (American) Pre-Millennialists, when they refer to the Kingdom, they do so not in the primarily sense as the spiritual rule of God, but referring to a secondary geographic location. So we are at cross purposes, because our definitions of "Kingdom" differs.

 

·         Do I reject the Millennium?  No, the words "thousand years" are used six times in Revelation 20, I would regard four of these as referring to 4,000 years from Adam to Christ, and two occurrences, which mention of the reign of Christ (Revelation 20:4 and 6), as referring to Christ's present rule in heaven (a spiritual rule over his saints). So unless I am mistaken, I'd regard the Millennial reign of Christ as spiritual, in heaven, and for two periods of "a thousand years" which makes a Millennial reign a period of two thousand years from Christ's ascension until his second coming.

 

·         Do I reject the idea that Christ will reign upon the earth? No, Revelation 5:10 states of God's saints that: "we shall reign on the earth," so I would expect Christ our King to be here too, whether that is permanently or not I choose not to speculate. However, this reign of Christ on the earth, will be after the Millennial (Spiritual) reign of Christ (in heaven) has finished, at his second coming he returns to this world and only then, in the eternal state, will Christ then establish his physical and geographic (eternal) rule upon this earth from the city of Jerusalem.

 

·         Aren't the Jews on the earth and the Church in heaven eternally? No, that's taught in the Schofield Reference Bible notes, but not in the Bible itself. If you look on YouTube for the sermon: "Dispensationalism" by Stuart Olyott, in it he explains rather well the error of dividing up the people one God into two different groups with two different hopes. It's all based upon the faulty hermeneutic of using the Old Testament to interpret the New Testament, rather than the other way a round.

 

·         If I am correct, when does the Spiritual reign of Christ (in heaven) end, and the literal and physical (geographic) reign of Christ begin?   At the second coming.

 

·         Aren't we arguing over semantics? Well I am not the one insulting others, and condemning others as satanic! As for dispensational theology, so beloved by American Fundamentalists, it has been undergoing a series of radical changes since the publication of the Revised Schofield Reference Bible in 1967. American Fundamentalists in these forums, cannot simply ignore the many challenges coming from their own scholars, such as those scholars at Dallas Theological Seminary, nicknamed the Vatican of dispensational theology, to your own system. To ignore the now overwhelming scholarly criticisms of the Schofield Reference Bible, upon which classical dispensationalism is based, would be to put your head in the sand!

 

·         What are the key issues in this complicated subject? Stuart Olyott in a now dated, but informative YouTube sermon titled: "dispensationalism,", has given a mnemonic (LAZER) which sums this up. It describes how in the dispensational system, one assumption then forces the next assumption, so that like dominoes, if you assume one thing then you'll consequently assume a whole range of things. To be fair this sermon is now rather dated and over harsh in its criticisms, it does not explain how scholarly dispensationalism has greatly moderated since the 1960s, so that modern progressive dispensationalists such as John McArthur, whom I would personally greatly respect, hold to a form of dispensationalism which is far closer to covenant theology than that of the freemason C. I. Schofield. The five points of LAZER are: (1) Take the Bible literally, using the Old Testament promises to the Jews to then reinterpret the New Testament. (2) Then you'll be forced to regard the Church as a mere afterthought, which was never in God's eternal plan.  (3) God has seven dispensations and saves people in different ways with different gospels in each dispensation (progressive dispensationalists reject this). (4) In eternity, the Church goes to heaven and Jews inherit the earth, so God has two separate peoples with two separate hopes.  (5) The rapture divides up the Church from the Jews, so that never the twain shall meet.

 

·         What are the worrying implications of this whole debate?  Nobody including myself gets everything absolutely right, I'm still learning and have much more to learn. But after a Christian walk of some 32 years now, sadly I've come to the conclusion that so much of what calls itself Christian, doesn't represent Christ at all, and that at the judgement he will say: "I never knew you, depart from me you who practice lawlessness!" (Matthew 7:23). Please do not think that I am pointing the finger only at those dispensationalists in these forums whom I happen to disagree with, not at all, I myself am reformed, yet we are every bit as bad as the Dispensationalists, Pentecostals, Charismatics and others who claim the name of Christ. Living as I do in Plymouth in the UK, where GOD TV is based, I see the most appalling apostasy here within local Churches. Which is why I no longer attend any fellowship, run by a clergy class, within a building called a church. Most Evangelical Church leaders here in Plymouth are functionally non-Trinitarian, as the Trinity is often misdefined by uneducated leaders making it up as they go as either tri-theism or modalism. This then has a terrible knock on effect on the person and work of Christ, which few church leaders can define accurately. Finally, if you get the Trinity and Christ wrong, then your gospel will also be wrong! However, the worst are the many abuses and lack of love shown by church leaders. The uncorrectable pride demonstrated by so many lazy, ignorant Christians (local to me) is simply shameful.

Shabbat shalom, Limey_Bob.

I'm just going to make this simple. The Kingdom of God is the SAME as that Kingdom ruled by David and Shlomoh (Solomon). Yeshua` (Jesus) IS their heir and is the Heir Apparent to the throne. (That's what "Messiah" [mashiyach] or "Christ" [christos] means: He is the "one anointed TO BE KING.") He is NOT King right now, because He hasn't yet returned to take over that Kingdom (which currently doesn't exist).

His first advent was focused on the CRUX of the matter: the offer of the Kingdom to His own people, His own family, the children of Israel. Through their rejection of their future King, even to the point of crucifying Him, Gentile nations have been blessed to participate in that Kingdom when He returns. We who are Gentiles are subjects for a Kingdom that does not yet exist!

To support this much, simply read the parable in Luke 19: (It's actually a parable within a parable; so, focus on the outer parable, which I will highlight.)

Luke 19:11-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been  faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV

The first few verses (12-15a) already occurred! Here's some of their fulfillment:

John 19:10-15
10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priest answered, We have no king but Caesar.
KJV

Here is how Yeshua` (Jesus) responded to that rejection (ahead of time):

Matthew 23:29-39
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell (Greek: ge-enna = "valley of Hinnom" where the kings set up their judgment seats)?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

So, Yeshua` (Jesus) went away into that "far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return." Despite all the rhetoric to the contrary, He has NOT YET RETURNED! Therefore, the Kingdom has not yet been realized because its King has not yet returned! The Kingdom concept is INTIMATELY tied to the King! No King, no Kingdom! The best we can do at present is to make SUBJECTS for that Kingdom in anticipation of when it arrives. Therefore, the King is NOT currently reigning, as His ancestors David and Shlomoh did.