Who or what is the city which descends (Revelation 21:9)?

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, other one said:

My Bible says the earth will be burned up.   The Greek word there means to be consumed wholly or utterly burned up.  Still the physics that we live under today would not support a city that tall no matter how thick the walls are.

Shalom, other one.

Sorry, but if you're using a Bible from the same Greek versions as I use, then it does NOT say "the earth will be burned up." It says the "ground." It's not about the word "pareleusetai" (future, indicative, middle, 3rd-person, singular), although that word is often misinterpreted, as well. It's the word "gee" (spelled "gamma-eta" and pronounced "gay") that is most misunderstood. It's not a reference to the PLANET; it's a reference to the LAND!

"Pareleusetai" is the Greek word found in Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31 ("pareleusontai," future, indicative, middle, 3rd-person, plural); Luke 21:33 ("pareleusontai," future, indicative, middle, 3rd-person, plural); in the phrase "until heaven and earth shall pass away" of Matthew 5:18 ("parelthee," aorist, subjunctive, active, 3rd-person, singular); Luke 16:17 ("parelthein," aorist, infinitive, active), and in 2 Peter 3:10 ("pareleusontai," future, indicative, middle, 3rd-person, plural).

All of these words translated as "pass away" all refer to ...

3928 parerchomai (par-er'-khom-ahee). From para and erchomai; to come near or aside, i.e. To approach (arrive), go by (or away), (figuratively) perish or neglect, (causative) avert
-- come (forth), go, pass (away, by, over), past, transgress.

Its usage is "I pass by, pass away, pass out of sight; I am rendered void, become vain, neglect, disregard."

So, this word does NOT mean "to be burned up." It means "to approach, to come near, to arrive, to come aside, to pass by, to go by, to pass away, or to go away." I believe it means ALL those things, depending on which way one is turned to the path of the wind.

Some, looking into the wind, will see the ground "approaching, coming hear, or arriving."

Some turned 90 degrees to the path of the wind will see the ground "coming aside, passing by, or going by," and

those facing away from the wind will see the ground "passing away, going away, or passing out of sight." 

Most of the places that talk about "burning" are about burning the individuals that deserve it or their works being burned
(1 Corinthians 3:15; Matthew 3:12; 13:30, 40-42; Luke 3:17; John 15:6; Hebrews 6:8; Revelation 17:16; 18:8-9; 19:20; 20:9, 10, 13-15; and Revelation 21:8). 

In the opening of the first seal (Revelation 8:7), a third of the trees were burned up and all green grass (that John could see) was burned up.

Then, in 2 Peter 3:7, we read that the second earth with its second sky are "reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men," and this would correspond to the fire falling in Revelation 20:9, associated with the Day of Judgment called the Great White Throne Judgment. We also read ...

2 Peter 3:10-12 (KJV)

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

However, I suggest that this clause, "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up," refers to hee gee (pronounced "hay gay"), the SURFACE of the earth, the SOIL, the DIRT, the LAND upon which the works of man exist. Now, I'll go so far as to say that the crust of the earth itself will undergo this bath of intense heat, but not the whole planet. The heavens - hoi ouranoi - the skies - the earth's atmosphere "being on fire shall be dissolved," which means that the molecules in the atmosphere shall be broken down into its atoms: This would be accomplished with heat that causes molecular atoms to separate into ions. For instance, carbon dioxide,CO2, would become C+4, O-2, and O-2, ions of carbon and oxygen. The waters of the earth shall boil and the water vapor (H2O) shall also be broken down into its constituent atoms.

However, after the Fire, God will cool the planet's surface and re-Create the earth into a New Earth (ground; land) and re-Create the earth's atmosphere into a New Sky.

It will be a PURGE for God to make all things new! It's not a DESTRUCTION to show God's failure!

As far as the physics are concerned, if God is remaking the surface of the planet anyway, could He not design it to be in perfect harmony when the City has landed?

In eternity, God will still have a perfect, flawless PHYSICAL Creation. The physical is NOT evil, as some suggest. If God made the original Creation physical and called it "very good," then we, too, can look forward to a very good re-Creation.

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

 

In any case, 1,380 miles high is far above any place that mankind will exist. We are not "spiritual beings"; we are PHYSICAL BEINGS!

 

Hi Retro,

`It is sown a natural body, it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY. (1 Cor. 15: 44)

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Starise said:

A couple of things I'm picking up on this. I don't see the New Jerusalem being described as made of stone. From the text I gather the city that comes down is a solid structure OCCUPIED by the bride. WE are being relocated. The timeline says to me we ALREADY have our glorified bodies since this takes place after the last trump.

I would agree with most of this.

13 hours ago, Starise said:

While the scriptures don't expressly say it's a pyramid, it could be. It could also be a cube. I maybe mistakenly seen Christ described as a capstone being the key support stone in an arch because this is also referred to in similar ways. The cap stone can also be the top to a pyramid. The chief corner stone is responsible structurally for holding everything else up. If you remove it the building falls.

No, the "chief (head) corner stone (stone of-the-angle)" refers to the capstone, not some foundation stone (one of many, by the way), stuck in the corner of a building with the date of construction carved into it! The only way that "removing it would make the building fall" would be if it was a SINGLE SLAB FOUNDATION!

Anyway, the word "chief" is from the Hebrew word "ro'sh," which means "head!" And, as in the human body, the "head" is at the TOP.

Suggesting it is a cube invites all sorts of structural problems into this building. Keep remembering that the city is 1,380 miles long, wide, and high.

Now, let's look at Peter's words:

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation!"

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of personsought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, Peter gives us this basic outline:

1. The heavens (skies) and the earth "of old" were created in Genesis 1:

Genesis 1:6-10 (KJV)

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament (an expanse) in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven" (Hebrew: shaamayim = "skies"). And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said,

"Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear":

and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land "Earth"; and the gathering together of the waters called he "Seas": and God saw that it was good.

So, the image that we get from this is ...

waters above
firmament = shaamayim = "skies"
earth
waters below

So, when Peter said, "by the word of God the heavens (shaamayim) were of old, and the earth standing out of the water (below) and in (within) the water (above)," he is EXACTLY describing the scenario described by Moses.

Verse 6 simply states that the original earth and its skies were inundated with water, and that the deluge of Water, the Flood of Noach's time, caused that original habitat to perish.

Then, in verses 7 through 12, Peter talks about the CURRENT earth and its skies, how that they are destined for the deluge of Fire, in which all will perish yet again!

After the Fire, Peter said there would be NEW skies and a NEW earth, and this time, it would be "wherein dwelleth righteousness."

Now, this is crucial: How much material (matter) was added to the earth between the world before the Flood and the world after the Flood? Essentially, no matter was added to our ecosystem. We still have an earth that consists of the SAME MATTER that existed before the Flood. The structure may be a little different, but no matter has been added or subtracted. We now have ...

firmament = shaamayim = "skies"
earth
much more waters below

We also now have the addition of water that is suspended in the skies. That water is referred to now as "clouds." I believe "clouds" were foreign to the world before the Flood, because we can read ...

Genesis 2:4-6 (KJV)

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 

The hottest part of the day would release waters from the ground into the lower atmosphere as "a mist." This "mist" is what watered "the whole face of the ground." It had never rained on the ground before the Flood. Now, we have these bodies of water that float above us in the skies called "clouds." These clouds would gather and produce rain eventually; so, God warned Noach and his family about it in Genesis 9:

Genesis 9:8-17 (KJV)

8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 

9 "And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth."

12 And God said,

"This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. 14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: 15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth."

17 And God said unto Noah,

"This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth."

There may be local floods, but never again will there be a Global Flood.

So, if there was no addition of matter to the original earth to form the earth on which we now exist, I don't see that a Global Fire will be any different. The same matter will still be here, just in different forms.

So, when God re-forms the New Earth, I believe that it will have similar dimensions to what we have today, just as today's dimensions were not that dissimilar to the dimensions of the earth before the Flood.

If that is the case, then the circumference of the New Earth will also be about 24,901 miles and its radius about 3,963 miles. Furthermore, its mass will be about the same, 5.842 sextillion tonnes (5.9736 x 10 24 kg). This is another reason for believing that the New Jerusalem will indeed land.

13 hours ago, Starise said:

Some think the city never actually comes totally to the earth but remains in earth orbit. This is also something not expressly described. Physical contact with the old earth is mostly assumed. In fact I haven't seen any indication beyond all doubt that the proximity of the city is close to the proximity of old earth. The first heaven and earth has "passed away". Old earth might be a mere relic asteroid drifting in space.

In believing the City remains in earth's orbit invites MANY new complications:

First, an orbit is the continual falling of an object. It just falls beyond the curvature of the earth, and so APPEARS to be remaining at a stationary height. In fact, when put into a geosynchronous orbit, the satellite will remain relatively stationary over a point on the earth's surface. HOWEVER, all orbits eventually decay!

Second, how is the orbit established so that the gates on the north side REMAIN on the "north side?" Every orbit has spin. It may be about a single axis, but it may also be about 2 or even all 3 axes! How is this rectified?

Third, what happens to the water? The River of the Water of Life runs down the center median of the street throughout the City. What happens to the water when the street reaches the gates? Gigantic waterfalls can cause all sorts of havoc!

Fourth, the kings of the earth are supposed to bring the wealth of the nations into the city through the gates. How is this accomplished?

Fifth, how can one be sure of gaining the shortest distance from the earth to a gate of the City, to make sure one has the necessary fuel to make such a trip? How does one determine which gate is the best gate for access from one's current location on the earth?

Sixth, how high must this City be? The present earth's atmosphere extends to 300 miles (further if one is defining the rarification of the earth's atmosphere to be less).Will it be locked into a geosynchronous orbit, or will it circle the earth in some pre-established pattern?

Seventh, wouldn't at least one of the foundations actually be a "foundation?" A "themelios" is defined as "From a derivative of tithemi; something put down, i.e. A substruction (of a building, etc.), (literally or figuratively) -- foundation."

Eighth, because an orbit is an object constantly falling toward the ground and constantly missing it, how does one live and operate in a city without the effects of gravity? How does one establish which way is "up?" How does the river stay within its banks? And, if one should suggest that the river would flow in pipes, how does the water get to the millions of trees of the Tree of Life species, planted within the median of the street, on either side of the river?

We could keep going, but I think that's enough, ... unless one wants to press the issue.

[other one]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 

the elements will melt with fervent heat.   The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.    So the earth will either be melted or burned up.

But it still doesn't explain how a city of over a thousand miles high could possibly exist in a place where todays physics was still in effect.

A new heaven and a new earth and it isn't like the old one.

[teddyv]

"That's no moon... it's a space station."

[Starise]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, the "chief (head) corner stone (stone of-the-angle)" refers to the capstone, not some foundation stone (one of many, by the way), stuck in the corner of a building with the date of construction carved into it! The only way that "removing it would make the building fall" would be if it was a SINGLE SLAB FOUNDATION!

I was talking about the KEYSTONE. My mistake in using the wrong term here. See pic.Probably also referred to as a cap stone. I was not referring to a foundation stone. It could also be the tip of a pyramid.

I think we can possibly get into trouble in saying certain conditions can't possibly be when we don't know all of the variables. While I do tend to agree with you that the New Jerusalem is a pre-fabbed city that comes to earth with us in it, I don't have a solid basis for the opinion unless we look at the Lord's prayer where we say " Thy Kingdom Come". Now this could also be seen in an immaterial way as in a kingdom, a dominion not necessarily made with hands. When in fact, His kingdom does come what will it look like? I guess that is the big question. 

I have to wonder if the Mayan cities of antiquity were possibly patterned by fallen angels. If you look at those ancient cities we see many canal systems surrounding a large pyramid structure with roads in between. Makes me wonder what the garden of Eden looked like and if they were trying to copy it, because they had SEEN it. I readily admit this is also just my opinion. If Satan were trying to take over earth what better blueprint to follow?

I don't personally have a problem with a cube. I mean, you can get more into a cube than a pyramid. The structural integrity and composition of it is not likely to be anything we are presently aware of. When we make things on the earth now we account for the curvature. This would simply be on a much larger scale either pyramid or cube. If God can make something that large He will have no trouble positioning it.

Gravity is one of those things scientists have never fully explained or entirely understood. Yes absolutely I agree with you that all orbits decay over time for man made objects circling the earth. This won't be a man made object though. It will be a God made city and it may have autonomous stability in space. Look at the moon. It's been up there for a long long time circling the earth and it isn't about to fall unless God ordains it. There is a lot of speculation about the moon being artificial or not like a planet. It really isn't and that argument has some validity if you look into it in depth.

When God destroys the "heavens" we are assuming it's only the immediate atmosphere. How can we be so sure? Especially when the sun and moon stop producing light and stars fall from the sky? God is clearly not making a city from existing earth matter in the same way He did after the flood. He is bringing something else He made into this apart from the destroyed earth. Personally I have to wonder why God would keep concentrating on this one little lump of earth in space when there are literally millions of other planets. Why would He keep rebuilding this little speck in the universe radar? He has plenty more He could work on. For all we know the New Jerusalem will be mobile in the universe. If God is the pilot, why wouldn't it be?

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Starise

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

`It is sown a natural body, it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY. (1 Cor. 15: 44)

Shalom, Marilyn.

Yeah, everyone thinks they know what a "spiritual body" is, but the ONLY way to truly know what Paul meant here is to look up the Greek and see what a NATURAL body is. Then, one can more closely understand was a SPIRITUAL body is by way of contrast. First, let's look at the context:

1 Corinthians 15:35-44 (KJV)

35 But some man will say,

"How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is ...
one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes, and
another of birds. 
40 There are also celestial bodies, and
bodies terrestrial:

but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is ...
one glory of the sun, and
another glory of the moon, and
another glory of the stars:
for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown in corruption;
it is raised in incorruption: 

43 It is sown in dishonour;
it is raised in glory:

it is sown in weakness;
it is raised in power: 

44 It is sown a natural body;
it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written,

"The first man Adam was made a living soul";

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy:
the second man is the Lord from heaven. 

48 As is the earthy,
such are they also that are earthy: and

as is the heavenly,
such are they also that are heavenly. 

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Paul's words here are a work of art. And, they are a wonderful study in contrasts!

Now, let's zero in on verses 44 and 45:

Pros Korinthious A 15:44-45

44 steiretai sooma psuchikon, egeiretai sooma pneumatikon. Ei estin sooma psuchikon, estin kai pneumatikon.
45 Houtos kai gegraptai,

Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan;

ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun. 

44 steiretai = 44 it-is-sown
sooma = a-body
psuchikon, = air-breathing,
egeiretai = it-is-raised
sooma = a-body
pneumatikon. = air-blowing.
Ei = If
estin = there-is
sooma = a-body
psuchikon, = air-breathing,
estin = there-is
kai = also
pneumatikon. = an-air-blowing.
45 Houtos = 45 So
kai = also
gegraptai, = it-is-written,

Egeneto = Became 
ho = the
prootos = first
anthroopos = man
Adam = Adam
eis = into
psucheen = an-air-breathing-creature
zoosan; = living;

ho = the
eschatos = last
Adam = Adam
eis = into
pneuma = an-air-blowing-creature
zoo-opoioun. = life-giving. 

To use the word "natural" doesn't do the contrast justice. The word "pneumatikos" DOES mean "spirit-like." However, "psuchikos" literally means "soul-like." So, how did someone come up with the word "natural?"

So, the difference between these words is not "natural/spiritual" or "physical/immaterial"; the difference between these words is "air-BREATHING creature" and "air-BLOWING creature." The air-BREATHING creature is a being that needs to breathe to survive. The air-BLOWING creature is a being who can create a wind that will bring life to others.

And, if Paul was talking about Yeshua` (and we both know he was), Yeshua` said,

Luke 24: (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

John said,

1 John 3:1-3 (KJV)

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

I have no doubt that we shall be resurrected as SUPER bodies that have flesh and bones like Him. A "spiritual body" is not immaterial or nonphysical; it's a more powerful body that doesn't have to breathe to survive but blows like the wind, giving others life.  

[Marilyn C]

Our spiritual body, like the Lord`s as you well pointed out, Retro, can go through walls and through time, for we will be in eternity where there is no time. 

Our glorious spiritual bodies do not have blood, for that is the earthly life. We have the very spirit of God within and the glory of the Lord throughout. 

Christ manifested in an earthly robed body, eating and drinking, however that is because He came into time. In eternity there is not earthly time and no bodies that decay. Our `food and drink` is not of this world for we do not need those earthly things to live. 

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Our spiritual body, like the Lord`s as you well pointed out, Retro, can go through walls and through time, for we will be in eternity where there is no time. 

We don't know that the Lord went through walls. He just appeared in the room with them. It might be that He was invisible and allowed Himself to appear at that moment. We don't know, and the Scriptures are silent as to how He did it. He could have gone in with the whole group, remaining inconspicuous and shielding them from recognizing Him., as He did with the two on the road to Emmaus.

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Our glorious spiritual bodies do not have blood, for that is the earthly life. We have the very spirit of God within and the glory of the Lord throughout. 

I don't doubt that we won't have blood (too much), but our life is the "Light of men." That STILL doesn't mean that we are bodies that might be considered "immaterial" or "nonphysical." I find it interesting that you include the word "glorious" in describing us resurrected. The word translated as "glory" is "doxa." That's a VERY interesting word! These are the verses that lead into the verses about the "spiritual body":

1 Corinthians 15:29-43 (KJV)

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Here's the same passage in Greek, with a word-for-word translation and then a more English-like word order (supplying words, as needed):

Pros Korinthious A 15:39-43

39 Ou pasa sarx hee autee sarx, alla allee men anthroopoon, allee de sarx
39 Not all flesh the same flesh, but one indeed of-men, one but flesh
39 Not all flesh [is] the same flesh, but indeed [there's] one of men, but one flesh

kteenoon, allee de sarx pteenoon, allee de ichthuoon. 40 Kai soomata
of-beasts, one but flesh of-birds, one but of-fishes. 40 And bodies
of beasts, but one flesh of birds, but one of fishes. 40 And [there are] bodies

epourania, kai soomata epigeia; alla hetera men hee toon epouranioon doxa,
above-the-sky, and bodies above-the-earth; but one indeed the of-the above-the-sky glory
above the sky, and [there are] bodies above the earth, but indeed the glory of the [things] above the sky [is]

hetera de hee toon epigeioon. 41 Allee doxa heeliou, kai allee doxa seleenees,
one but the the above-the-earth. 41 One glory of-sun, and one glory of-moon,
one but the [glory] of [things] above the earth [is another]. 41 [There's] one glory of [the] sun, and another glory of [the] moon,

kai allee doxa asteroon; asteer gar asteros diaferei en doxee.
and one glory of-stars; a-star for from-a-star differentiates in glory.
and another glory of [the] stars; for each star differs from another in glory.

42 Houtoos kai hee anastasis toon nekroon. Steiretai en fthora, egeiretai en
42 So also the resurrection of-the dead-ones. Sown in decay, raised in
42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead ones. [They're] sown in decay, [they're] raised in 

aftharsia; 43 steiretai en atimia, egeiretai en doxee; steiretai en astheneia,
indestructibility; 43 sown in dishonor, raised in glory; sown in weakness,
indestructibility; 43 [they're] sown in dishonor, [they're] raised in glory; [they're] sown in weakness,

egeiretai en dunamei;
raised in power;
[they're] raised in power;

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Christ manifested in an earthly robed body, eating and drinking, however that is because He came into time. In eternity there is not earthly time and no bodies that decay. Our `food and drink` is not of this world for we do not need those earthly things to live. 

Now, here we have a BIG problem. Earlier you said, "we will be in eternity where there is no time." That's just not true. Eternity is not the ABSENCE of time; it's an INFINITE AMOUNT of time.

See, the thing one must remember is that, within the space-mass-time continuum, in order to have movement of an object (measured by speed or velocity), one must have the displacement in space (distance; length) per some measure of time (second, minute, hour, year, etc.).

The simple formula is velocity (v) = distance (d) / time (t) or v = d/t.

If there's no time, if one is a physical body (and we will be), then we would be FROZEN IN SPACE, NEVER TO MOVE AT ALL! That doesn't sound very appealing to me. What good would any of the physical things be in the New Jerusalem, if YOU CAN'T MOVE?! Even plucking a fruit from a tree and putting it in your mouth TAKES TIME to do so! What good is the Tree of Life if you can't eat its fruit?!

We will be PHYSICAL bodies that won't decay! We will be indestructible! Again, you need to understand that Christ WAS NOT "manifested in an earthly robed body, eating and drinking!" Look at it again:

John 1:14 (KJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Scriptures NEVER say that Christ "took on human flesh!" BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL! As an old math teacher of mine often said,
"BE ZACT!" That's why I believe that it's not right to say that "Christ was God incarnate." The very word "incarnate" means to be put "in flesh!" NO!!!

He was MADE flesh!

Consider how it was worded to Miryam ("Mary"):

Luke 1:26-38 (KJV)

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said,

"Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women!"

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

34 Then said Mary unto the angel,

"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

35 And the angel answered and said unto her,

"The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible!"

38 And Mary said,

"Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word."

And the angel departed from her.

NOWHERE in any of this does it talk about "His body" as though it might be separate from the "real" Him! Rather, she is told that she would become pregnant, bring forth a son, and call His name Yeshua` ("Jesus"). He doesn't HAVE a body; He IS His body! And, that's JUST the same way that Adam was created!

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man (NOT the "body of the man") of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (a living, air-breathing creature!)

Look what God promised him in the Curse:

Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it': cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till THOU (NOT thy body) return unto the ground; for out of it wast THOU (NOT thy body) taken: for dust THOU art, and unto dust shalt THOU return."

Now, it's not your fault that we've been taught that by some well-meaning Bible teachers who take ONE VERSE out of context and, because of the way it was translated, get a wrong teaching.

Revelation 10:5-6 (KJV) (I'll include verse 5 for background)

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

It SOUNDS like that's what this "angel" is saying, but look at the NEXT verse!

Revelation 10:7 (KJV)

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

He's not saying there won't be any more time; he's saying there won't be any more DELAY! No more time WAITING!

We ARE physical; that's the way God made us, and there's nothing wrong with how He created us. When we are resurrected, we will STILL be physical. While there will be some interesting changes in our anatomy, we will still be physical, enjoying the physical things He as made for us to enjoy in the New Earth and the New Jerusalem.

[Marilyn C]

Dear Retro,

You again write tooooo much. I appreciate when you just do some and not overload. I did have a chuckle at your picture of the Lord coming in with the others and not being recognized. But no. Don`t accept that. He made the invisible realm and He can easily move from one to the other. 

As to time, that is only measured by decay. And since there will be no decay in the new heavens and new earth then no time, (as we know it). 

Marilyn.