Oneness claims that John 14:10 states that Jesus is God the Father

[Limey_Bob]

Isaiah 9:6.          A six point reply.

 

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”  (Isaiah 9:6).

 

Firstly, the central theme of this passage is “peace.” This is clear by the fact that Isaiah is here speaking of God’s government, which is said to rest upon the messiah’s shoulder. Both shoulders are needed for a shepherd to carry a lamb, however so secure is Christ’s Kingdom that figuratively, he’s said to carry it on only one shoulder. Thus Isaiah 9:6 lists several names, all of which state the same thing about the Son, albeit in slightly different ways. Specifically that he is “the wonderful counsellor,” because a counsellor mediates peace between opposing parties. He is also the “Prince of Peace,” because He brings peace to God’s Kingdom. He is also “the Everlasting Father” because He is the originator (Father) of this peace, which being eternal, won’t end. Finally the Messiah is also the “Mighty God,” because such a true and lasting peace can only be accomplished by the power of Yahweh God himself.

 

Secondly, some have attempted to read ‘God the Father’ into the actual text of Isaiah 9:6. But the word for ‘God’ or (El) in the Hebrew, is missing here, which is why we don’t read; ‘God the Father,’ but instead read ‘the Father of eternity.’

 

Thirdly, ‘Father of eternity’ is actually a Hebrew construct. This is a combination of a noun and an adjective, where the noun ‘Father’ means either the originator, or more commonly the possessor of something, that the adjective describes an attribute. As an example of a few Hebrew constructs; ‘abi-asaph’ (2^nd Samuel 23:21), literally reads the ‘father of strength,’ and means a strong man. ‘Abi-tub’ (1^st Chronicles 8:8-11), literally reads, ‘the father of goodness’ and means one who is good. ‘Abi-el’ (1^st Samuel 9:1) means the ‘father of God’, and so implies that he was a Godly man.

 

Fourthly, the term “prince” and its resulting titles in Isaiah 9:6, including the phrase “the Prince of Peace,” cannot be applied to God the Father. I make this claim, since it is only the Son of God, and never God the Father, who is called a “prince” in the Bible, and who secondly was killed; “and killed the prince of life” (Acts 3:15).

 

Fifthly, Oneness folk don’t regard the word “Father” as a proper name, but as a title. One can respond to this claim by pointing out that in the Lord’s prayer, the Father is still addressed as “Father,” and that the Greek word “name,” (onoma) is directly applied to the Father; “Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.” (Luke 11:2).

 

Finally, Oneness Pentecostals might try to counter these arguments by quoting Luke 1:35; “that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” They’ll misquote this verse claiming that the Jesus was made (created as) the Son at his birth. But the text actually uses the word “called,” instead of the word “created.” So the human body inside Mary’s womb was indeed created, but the Son who was sent into the world from outside of it (John 16:28, 1^st John 4:9-10, 14) is eternal and uncreated. 

Post written by Robert Skynner

 

[OneLight]

18 minutes ago, Fridaywinds said:

It sounds like you aren't aware Jesus was born of Mary , a woman, by God's doing. He was created in her womb as scriptures tell us. Are you not aware of his origin?

I pray this may help your understanding of the origin of Immanuel. Matthew 1:18-25 

This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.¹⁹ Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

²⁰ But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. ²¹ She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus because he will save his people from their sins.”

²² All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: ²³ “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”  (which means “God with us”).

²⁴ When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. ²⁵ But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

The man Jesus had to be born into this world to fulfill the Fathers plan for salvation.  That is His worldly beginnings, but not His beginning.  Have you not read John 1:1-5?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

and John 1:14

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

What beginning is spoken of in John 1:1?

Genesis 1:26-27

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

If God is singular, why would He ever say "Let Us make man in Our image"?

[Limey_Bob]

“Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.” (John 14:10, NIV).

 

If Jesus Christ is God the Father then why doesn’t Jesus say: ‘I am the Father?’ And why does the Father never say of himself; ‘I am Jesus’ or ‘I am the Son?’ I would agree with Oneness people that God the Father certainly does literally indwell the Son, just as both indwell all saved Christians John 14:23, but Trinitarians have affirmed this truth for centuries; Trinitarian doctrinal statements of faith express this concept known was know as ‘perichoresis’ or today it’s sometimes called ‘co-inheritance.’ Furthermore the use of the preposition ‘IN:’ ‘I am IN the Father, and the Father IN me’ refutes the statement that Jesus is here saying that he is himself God the Father as you can only indwell or be in somebody other than yourself. 

 

The Father’s indwelling of the Son, is furthermore no basis for the Son’s deity as Apostolics would claim. For I too as a Christian have God the Father living inside of me (John 14:23), and yet that doesn’t make me a manifestation of God the Father does it. For all born again Christians are said to be filled with the fullness of God (Ephesians 3:17), yet despite being indwelt by God and filled with his fullness we are nonetheless still not God the Father but are creatures other than him whom he then chooses to indwell. This leaves Apostolics with the problem that if Jesus is the ‘Son of the Father’ (2^nd John 3), and we further read that he is the Son of God: ‘Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God’ (John 20:31). But we never read that he is said to be God the Father. Also at John 5:37 and 6:46 Jesus himself states that nobody has seen the Father’s form and in the first verse, nobody has heard his voice either. Therefore whatever Jesus cannot be saying that to see him is to see God the Father at John 14:9, as that would directly contradict John 5:37 and 6:46.

 

Some Apostolics might claim that as the masculine word for one, which means to be numerically one (as in the shema) is ‘heis;’ ‘hear oh Israel the Lord our God is one.’ (Mark 12:29), therefore God is only one person. However this verse only proves that God is one singular God, a distinction between the Father and the Son is still found at John 17:22-23 and 10:30 where the neuter word for one (hen) is used to distinguish between the Father and the Son at John 10:30, just as we together with the Father and Son are all said to also be one (in unity) but not one person at John 17:22: ‘…  that they might be one just as We are one.’

 

Finally, John 14:10 present’s an additional problem for Apostolics because the Father is not only said to be ‘IN’ the Son, but that Son is also said to be ‘IN’ the Father. This second statement that the Son is ‘IN’ the Father if taken just as literally as the first statement is taken literally by Apostolics thereby implies the Son’s omnipresence, and is again repeated in verse 23 where both the Father and the Son are again both said as the first person plural; ‘we will come to him,’ to then indwell all saved Christians. Therefore Apostolics possessing a superficial understanding, in reality are really denying the deity, eternity and omnipresence of the Son, whom they regard as God’s flesh and without divine attributes but which is then indwelt by the Father.

 

Written by Robert Skynner

 

[other one]

8 minutes ago, Limey_Bob said:

No, Jesus and God the Father are two distinct persons of the one God, both are YHWH GOd, but the Father is not the Son. If you go to my YouTube channel: Christian Comedy Channel I have a Oneness Pentecostal (Apostolic) section, with many debates including several of my own. These Oneness Apostolics rarely debate Trinitarians now, becasue when they do, they always end up losing and looking foolish. 

Moses Aaron and 72 others saw YHWH but Jesus tells us no one has seen the Father. 

They are two distinct entities.. the problem is that most people want our "God" to be a single entity.  Being one does not make them the same thing.   Bmy wife and I are one according to scripture.  I have been born again spiritually and am one with jesus....  that doesn't make me God.

[OneLight]

31 minutes ago, Limey_Bob said:

Fridaywinds is a Oneness Pentecostal, I used to be one myself back in the 1980s. I have a Oneness section on my YouTube channel (Christian Comedy Channel), with 99 videos, a few famous debates between Trinitarians and Oneness (oh and one Muslim and David Bernard of the UPCI). I also have three of my own audio debates with Oneness Pentecostals up on this channel. Oh this playlist on my channel also has specific videos dealing with individual Oneness proof texts such as John 10:30 and 14:9 inferred by Fridaywinds.

 

29 minutes ago, Fridaywinds said:

No, Fridaywinds is not a oneness Pentecostal. 

 

25 minutes ago, Limey_Bob said:

How do you know that? Millions of Oneness Apostolics are now within denominations which are either officially Trinitarian, or else are deliberately vague on the Trinity, some Oneness folk will deliberately try to mislead you and will not be honest about what they believe.

Limey, you need to step back with the personal accusations about what you believe about any other member and focus on the subject, not the person. 

I hid the argument you started and am only using these hidden posts to make my point to you.

[Fridaywinds]

5 minutes ago, OneLight said:

The man Jesus had to be born into this world to fulfill the Fathers plan for salvation.  That is His worldly beginnings, but not His beginning.  Have you not read John 1:1-5?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

and John 1:14

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

What beginning is spoken of in John 1:1?

Genesis 1:26-27

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

If God is singular, why would He ever say "Let Us make man in Our image"?

You believe in three God's then? 
 

I just want to understand better what you believe. 

God is sovereign. For all that that means. He is also possessed of foresight, omniscience, being he is omnipotent, and omnipresent.The language in that verse in Genesis is like unto what monarchs speak today when they refer to themselves in the plural pronoun form. http://cexams.net/GK-Questions-Answers/5708

With oh so many scriptures that are first believed and defended to be the inspired words of God the Holy Spirit that is "I Am" in scripture, like, "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Which is a reflection upon , a reminder of God when he spoke to Moshe concerning the mission he was sending a stutterer on , overcoming that impediment because Moshe was to be imbued with God's will for the job itself, recorded in Exodus 3:14 as , God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

I find it surprising that there would be those who think to promote anything other than the truth of God in his own word. 

[Limey_Bob]

“¹ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: …..   ⁵ And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”  (John 17:1 and 5, KJV).

 

At John 17:5 we read; “the glory which I had with you before the world was.” We understand here that the Son had glory together with his Father, (Greek para alongside) or literally ‘By the side of thyself.’  And was even loved by the Father (in eternity past), before the world’s creation. Notice that the context for this passage in verse 1, is the word “Son,” of whom we read; “Father the hour has come glorify your Son.” So God the Father had glory with the Son before the creation of the world. The context for this passage is a dialogue between the very literal Son and his very literal Father. Jesus then prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (Re John 1:1), which he enjoyed before the Incarnation (John 1:14) and he uses the imperative, which is a command in Greek to address his Father: ‘O Father glorify me.’ It’s difficult to explain how the Son can command the Father as a mere man who is not God!

 

This is not just an ideal pre-existence in the Father’s mind. But an actual, real and conscious existence at the Father’s side ‘para soi’ (with thee). ‘Which I had’ (heôi eichon) the imperfect active of echoô, I used to have, with attraction of case of heôn to heôi because of doxeôi). "Before the world was" (pro tou ton kosmon einai).” (This is a quote from: A.T. Robertsons’ Word Pictures of the New Testament taken from John 17).

 

The fact that the Son possesses this divine glory, is yet a further proof of his deity. For God (YHWH) says in the Old Testament that “My glory I will not give his glory to another” Isaiah 42:8. The obvious conclusion from these verses is that the Son is himself fully and cpompletely Yahweh God. The standard Oneness reply would be to claim that “Jesus’” glory is here being spoken of. This Jesus however is not the “Son of God,” who alone is the true Jesus of the Bible (2^nd John 3). But the Jesus of Oneness Pentecostalism, who can, and sometimes does, exist as Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Essentially Oneness people will usually claim that (in their words), “Jesus the Father” had glory all alone with himself before the world was.

 

A second interpretation would be to claim that the Son did indeed possess this divine glory, even though he did not actually exist at that moment in time. This is because (this glory), was planned to be given to him as an act of God’s foreknowledge, just as the Son then existed, only in God’s mind in his foreknowledge. The main problem with this second explanation is that you can’t possess something if you don’t even yet exist yourself. For at Romans 8:29 God’s elect (the saved), are also said to have been foreknown, in God’s mind.

 

Now Oneness Pentecostals (Apostolics), might claim that the Son is indeed God, but only because he was foreknown in God’s mind before his actual creation at Bethlehem, but this claim still makes the Son a created being, who was foreknown in the Father’s mind, just as all human beings also are also foreknown in God’s mind. But this is not the Biblical account of the eternal Son of God, who exists before the creation (Hebrews 1:2), and is himself unchanging (Hebrews 13:8) and eternal (1^st John 1:2). Furthermore the Son is addressed by masculine pronouns “he,” and masculine personal pronouns “him,” before his birth (John 1:2-3), and so he is not described as some mere thought existing in God’s mind would be; that is as an impersonal “it.”

 

Post by Robert Skynner of the

Christian Comedy Channel on YouTube.

[OneLight]

2 minutes ago, Fridaywinds said:

You believe in three God's then? 
 

I just want to understand better what you believe. 

God is sovereign. For all that that means. He is also possessed of foresight, omniscience, being he is omnipotent, and omnipresent.The language in that verse in Genesis is like unto what monarchs speak today when they refer to themselves in the plural pronoun form. http://cexams.net/GK-Questions-Answers/5708

With oh so many scriptures that are first believed and defended to be the inspired words of God the Holy Spirit that is "I Am" in scripture, like, "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Which is a reflection upon , a reminder of God when he spoke to Moshe concerning the mission he was sending a stutterer on , overcoming that impediment because Moshe was to be imbued with God's will for the job itself, recorded in Exodus 3:14 as , God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

I find it surprising that there would be those who think to promote anything other than the truth of God in his own word. 

No, I believe in one God.  God is a title, not an entity.  God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

[other one]

Why are you starting so many threads on the same subject?

[Limey_Bob]

5 minutes ago, OneLight said:

 

 

Limey, you need to step back with the personal accusations about what you believe about any other member and focus on the subject, not the person. 

Thank you for your advice, however, I've studied Oneness for 30 years and was Oneness myself at some time. I am not trying to attack anyone, and I have the highest respect for Fridaywinds. However, I know where this is going, unless Fridaywinds agrees to a specific discussion, which is tied to some specific agreed title, then these posts will go around and around in circles with no actual, detailed scriptural discussion ever taking place. So my aim is not to make personal accusations, but to suggest that we EXAMINE the scriptures in a setting and forum, where we both stick to an agreed topic from which both won't deviate from.