The Tribulation?

[Kindle]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

He became an idol worshiper, which is why his son Manasseh is mentioned instead.

Are you saying Manasseh is Dans son?

[missmuffet]

9 minutes ago, worthy said:

Are you saying Manasseh is Dans son?

Manasseh was the first son of Joseph.

[Kindle]

1 minute ago, missmuffet said:

Manasseh was the first son of Joseph.

I know, from OL post it looks like he's saying Manasseh is dans son. Joseph was not an idol worshiper.

[wingnut-]

11 minutes ago, worthy said:

Are you saying Manasseh is Dans son?

Manasseh and Ephraim were the sons of Joseph

 

[Kindle]

4 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Manasseh and Ephraim were the sons of Joseph

 

Yes I know.

[wingnut-]

31 minutes ago, angels4u said:

I remember it was George  in this forum  ,we did talk about it before and forgot what he said, maybe we can find it back...

 

Most theologians and scholars believe it was due to idolatry, as Dan is considered the tribe that first introduced this to Israel.  Jacob passed over Manasseh and gave his blessing to Ephraim.

 

Genesis 48:17 When Joseph saw his father placing his right hand on Ephraim’s head he was displeased; so he took hold of his father’s hand to move it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head. 18 Joseph said to him, “No, my father, this one is the firstborn; put your right hand on his head.”

19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He too will become a people, and he too will become great. Nevertheless, his younger brother will be greater than he, and his descendants will become a group of nations.” 20 He blessed them that day and said,

“In your name will Israel pronounce this blessing:
    ‘May God make you like Ephraim and Manasseh.’”

So he put Ephraim ahead of Manasseh.

[Zemke]

5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

With a pre tribulation Rapture viewpoint, I could use some insight on my question?

In Revelation 14:4, we have the "firstfruits" of the tribulation, they are the 144,000 Jewish witnesses sealed by God. I take that to mean, they are the first peoples to be saved during the tribulation, thus firstfruits.

The timing of these 144,000 firstfruits, seems to be around mid-tribulation but that's open to speculation and debate. One thing seems very apparent though, the sealing of these 144,000 Saints are well after the pre-tribulation Rapture, so there seems to be a gap of time from the Rapture to the arrival of these Saints.

With the above in mind and a pre-tribulation viewpoint of scripture, here's the scenario and question.

You have millions and millions of pretend Christians, those that fully know the Gospel but didn't accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, to include many pastors and clergy. Those people are at church, out shopping, traveling with their saved spouse / family or whatever. BANG-POW-BOOM, all of a sudden their saved loved ones disappear right before their very eyes. These spouses and loved ones are left behind, knowing the Gospel and scripture, but they never committed to the Lord and/or only though they were saved. 

The natural reaction would seem to be to instantly drop to one's knees in shock, and accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior right then and there? If I'm interpreting Revelation 14:4 hermeneutically correct, no one can be saved until at least the point of the 144,000 Jewish Saints. What am I missing or not seeing here?

Not sure it's something you're missing but interjecting. All this salvation going on during this period of time is actually interjected. It's assumed from all those under the alter that have come out of the tribulation there are many saved in the tribulation. The difficulty is created from the pre trib model. And with that perspective in mind the conundrum will not be satisfied. 

Revelation 9:20-21 States that the rest of mankind not killed by the plagues did not repent from idolatry, murders, sorceries, immorality or their theft.

This is a time of Jacobs trouble and the attention is back on the land and final judgement to bring Israel to it's knees. The church age, the time of the Gentiles is over, the ark door is shut, midnight has come, the Holy Spirit is no longer poured out to empower the church to preach the gospel and to convict the world of sin. Those who have oil have oil and those who do not do not. As Amos wrote, "people will search to and fro through out the land searching for a word from the LORD and will not be able to find."

Jesus said, deception to deceive, if possible, even the elect. You can keep on believing Matthew 24 is for the Jews after the rapture but is it the bible that has taught you that or mans wisdom?

I do not say this from a debating heart but all seriousness of really seeking and searching the scriptures to see if these things be so. Only the Spirit can open these things.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Zemke

[kenny2212]

Dennis, I believe it would be too late to accept Jesus after the rapture. Not that I'm saying people would not repent after the rapture. But their salvation would be based on whether they worship the beast and receive his mark. See Rev. 14:9,10. But what if the rapture happens long before the mark of the beast is introduced? I believe the trumpet judgements will not be worldwide. Will be limited to the middle east (I think). So I think there would be mass emigration from the middle east (especially before the 5th trumpet).

Edited May 15, 2017 by kenny2212

[wingnut-]

On 5/14/2017 at 4:26 PM, Dennis1209 said:

With a pre tribulation Rapture viewpoint, I could use some insight on my question?

In Revelation 14:4, we have the "firstfruits" of the tribulation, they are the 144,000 Jewish witnesses sealed by God. I take that to mean, they are the first peoples to be saved during the tribulation, thus firstfruits.

 

 

I Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

The above passage tells us who the firstfruits are, those who have fallen asleep, or in other words, those who are already dead and in heaven.  This is clarified in verse 21 and 22, the resurrection of the dead, made alive in Christ.  Verse 23 tells you the order, which Paul also confirms elsewhere in scripture, the dead rise first, then those who are alive and remain at His coming.

God bless

[Daniel 11:36]

Those of 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 will be made immortal just before the tribulation begins together .... both the dead in Christ and those living at the time

.... and then the 144000 of Israel will embrace the coming tribulation of the Lords wrath and judgment .... the first believers in the Lord's day of wrath which will last for 2550 days

Edited May 17, 2017 by Daniel 11:36