Paul's authority

[notsolostsoul]

3 minutes ago, Davida said:

Can I ask , did you venture into other spiritual paths or readings before looking into the Bible?

No

[notsolostsoul]

2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

God has given us His word.   The Bible is God's Word, all of it. 
 

Do you dispute that the Bible is 100% God's Word to mankind?

You have made it clear you dispute my beliefs. So further questioning is pointless and will only led to more disarray. Let it be where it is.

[notsolostsoul]

1 minute ago, Davida said:

Because I've known many who speak about "spirit" informing them and there are many deceiving spirits that use every opportunity to lead people in confusion.

Oh I know this. I see it everyday in my life. 

[OneLight]

35 minutes ago, notsolostsoul said:

The parts of the Pauline Letters that are in dispute were not written by Paul.

I am interested as to which of Paul's writing you are referring to?  Can you give book, chapter and verse?

[notsolostsoul]

29 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I am interested as to which of Paul's writing you are referring to?  Can you give book, chapter and verse?

The term "Deutero-Pauline" refers to New Testament letters that are included in the Pauline corpus but are now viewed by most critical scholars as products, not of the apostle Paul, but of Paul's followers or perhaps of a Pauline school. The letters thus designated are 2 Thessalonians, Colossians, Ephesians, and the Pastoral Epistles—1 and 2 Timothy and Titus. In previous volumes they are treated under individual headings (q.v.), but in this article they are dealt with as a group. For 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus, however, see pastoral epistles.

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In the New Testament, 2 Thessalonians, Colossians, and Ephesians purport to be from the hand of Paul (2 Thes 1:1: 2:17; Col 1:1; 4:18; Eph 1:1), and the tradition has regarded them as authentic Pauline writings (e.g., Polycarp, Justin, Marcion, Irenaeus, Muratorian Canon, Hippolytus of Rome, and Tertullian). Modern scholars have challenged the authenticity of these letters chiefly for the following reasons: the letters show differences in style, vocabulary, and theology from the undisputed Pauline letters, and they address issues and situations that do not correspond to those of Paul's lifetime, but seem to reflect a later period. Some scholars have seen in the Deutero-Pauline letters, especially in Colossians and Ephesians, evidence for a Pauline school, perhaps centered in Ephesus, that preserved, developed, and applied the Pauline teachings.

Bibliography: j. a. bailey, "Who Wrote II Thessalonians?" New Testament Studies 25 (1979) 131–45. m. barth,Ephesians (Garden City, N.Y. 1974). e. best. The First and Second Epistles to the Thessalonians (New York 1972). w. bujard, Stilanalytische Untersuchung zum Kolosserbrief als Beitrag zur Methodik von Sprachvergleichen (Göttingen 1973). g. b. caird, Paul's Letters from Prison (London 1976). j. e. crouch, The Origin and Intention of the Colossian Haustafel(Göttingen 1973). n. a. dahl, "Interpreting Ephesians: Then and Now." Theology Digest 25 (1977) 305–315. r. deichgrÄber, Gotteshymnus und Christushymnus in der frühen Christenheit (Göttingen 1967). k.g. eckart, "Der Zweite echte Brief des Apostel Paulus an die Thessalonicher,"Zeitschrift für Theologie und Kirche 58 (1961) 30–44. k.-m. fischer, Tendenz und Absicht des Epheserbriefes (Göttingen 1973). c. h. giblin, The Threat to Faith: An Exegetical and Theological Re-examination of 2 Thessalonians 2 (Rome 1967). j. gnilka, Der Epheserbrief (3rd ed. Freiburg 1982). e. j. goodspeed, The Meaning of Ephesians (Chicago 1933). l. e. keck and v. p. furnish, The Pauline Letters: Interpreting Biblical Texts(Nashville 1984). e. lohse, Colossians and Philemon (Philadelphia 1971). r. p. martin, Colossians and Philemon(London 1981). w. a. meeks, The First Urban Christians: The Social World of the Apostle Paul (New Haven and London 1983). b. rigaux, Saint Paul: Les Epîtres aur Thessaloniciens (Paris 1956). a. van roon, The Authenticity of Ephesians(Leiden 1974).

[M. p. horgan]

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Timothy 1 and 2 and Titus are said to be not writings of Paul at all but of his followers.

This is one source I have come upon.

Edited May 21, 2017 by notsolostsoul

[BobRyan]

18 hours ago, notsolostsoul said:

Agreed. 

I don't think People are denouncing Paul's authority. 

The scriptures they are disputing are Timothy 1 and 2 and Titus.

These are not just being disputed by individuals but have been debated on for quite some time by the very authorities that decided what books should be in the bible.

At least from the information I have found.

They are debating that these were not written by Paul directly but given as advice to how a church should be organized. Since Timothy was running his churches.

Other factors to consider are context. Who wrote it, why it was written, who it was addressing and the era it was written in. 

Also some of the teachings are not in one accord with Jesus' teachings.

Example: Men and Women are equal in Christ -Jesus teaching written by Paul.

Then Women can only be saved by childbearing and succumbing to their husbands-Timothy's writings.

It has been a long debate.

This is where I choose to go with Jesus, directly in scripture and The Holy Spirit.

 

2 Tim 3:16 - Paul reminds us that "all scripture" is given by inspiration from God - and is to be used for doctrine.

1 Tim 1 -- written by Paul

1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,

² To Timothy, a true son in the faith:

 

2 Tim 1 -- written by Paul

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

² To Timothy, a beloved son:

 

Peter admits that Paul's writings are part of scripture accepted in the NT by the NT saints.

2 Peter 3

 ¹⁵ and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, ¹⁶ as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

 

Paul's instruction -- "The Word of God"

1 Thess 2

¹³ For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

[Willa]

On 5/18/2017 at 6:07 AM, shiloh357 said:

These people who reject the writings of Paul are usually weird splinter groups and they have other huge theological errors that go along with their rejection of Paul.

False teachings usually come in a "package"  so to speak.  Usually if you find a group with one major false teaching, you will find that have a lot of other problematic teachings.

Large liberal denominations do this now.  Even the liberal arm of the Lutheran church; probably the Methodist and Espiscopal as well since they are also disregarding Paul and ordaining gays.  My spirit weeps for the apostate churches, the blind leading the blind.

[Willa]

On 5/21/2017 at 1:14 PM, notsolostsoul said:

The parts of the Pauline Letters that are in dispute were not written by Paul.

Just an example to think on.

If the disciples had trouble understanding Jesus' teachings and parables, and needed more of a direct explanation from Jesus himself. Why would someone be so accepting of information given to a follower of a disciple without comparing it or testing it against the direct teachings of Christ. Some of it don't even line up with Paul's other teachings.

My Spirit tells me go with Jesus and Paul's teachings of Jesus. Not a third party where things may be misconstrued.

Isn't this why Jesus gave us the grace to go to God individually.

Past scripture, Old Testament has taught us Man can misrepresent scripture but Jesus, The Holy Spirit and God are the Word.

You are disregarding the work of the Holy Spirit Whom Jesus promised to believers.  

Joh 7:38  Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'" Joh 7:39  Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Joh 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Joh 16:7  Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. Joh 16:8  And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:

Joh 16:12  "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. Joh 16:13  When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. Joh 16:14  He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

The apostles had scribes who recorded their words that the Holy Spirit had dictated.  Verbal plenary inspiration.  Peter's scribe was Mark because Peter, and unlearned fisherman, was possibly not able to read and write Greek; and Paul had a couple helping him because of his poor vision.  Luke recorded the Gospel of Luke and the Acts.  Matthew and John probably recorded their own.  But that doesn't mean that the books and epistles were inspired by men.  The same Spirit Who reveals to us our sin and the meaning of the Bible in spiritual terms is the same Spirit who dictated the New Testament and the epistles.  There is no conflict with what Jesus said;  Jesus spoke to those under the law because He had not yet fulfilled the law by going to the cross for us.  The Holy Spirit enlarged on the word of Jesus and applied them to the church.  

I am equal to my husband but I honor God by willingly accepting his authority over me.  The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are also equal but on earth the Son was under the authority of the Father.  He gave up His position and authority to come and die for us.  But they are still equal, as is the Holy Spirit.  They are one God and co-God or the Godhead in three persons, and are equal.  They do not act independently of each other.  So all Scriptures are God breathed and are holy.   To disregard the words of the Holy Spirit is worse than disregarding the words of Jesus because the Holy Spirit speaks directly to the Spirit Filled church.  Jesus spoke to the Jews who were unregenerate and still under the law.  We now have a new spirit within us that seeks to walk in/after the Holy Spirit and fulfill the law of love.  

[Willa]

The scriptures they are disputing are Timothy 1 and 2 and Titus.

These are not just being disputed by individuals but have been debated on for quite some time by the very authorities that decided what books should be in the bible.

At least from the information I have found.

They are debating that these were not written by Paul directly but given as advice to how a church should be organized. Since Timothy was running his churches.

NOT ALL BOOKS WERE DISTRIBUTE TO ALL REGIONS AT FIRST.  SO THERE ARE SOME THAT REACHED TURKEY THAT DID NOT REACH ROME, OR EGYPT.  THEY WERE FAMILIAR AND ATTESTED TO BY THE FOLLOWERS OF THE APOSTLES WHO WROTE THEM OR THEY COULD NOT BE ACCEPTED.  THEY ALSO WERE AUTHENTICATED BY THE INTERNAL CONTENT.  IT DID NOT CONTRADICT EXISTING SCRIPTURE OR EXPRESS EVIL ATTITUDES BUT WERE GODLY IN CHARACTER.  HEBREWS AND THE REVELATION WERE ALSO DISPUTED BY SOME.  HOWEVER, IN THE END ALL COULD BE VERIFIED AND WERE RECEIVED AS INSPIRED.  MANY GNOSTIC TEXTS WERE ELIMINATED AND BANNED.  

I CAN SEE WHY THE CURRENT LIBERAL CHURCH WANTS TO BAN PASSAGES AND BOOKS.  A GROUP OF THE NEW PARADIGM  CHURCHES GOT TOGETHER IN L.A. AND STARTED TOSSING OUT BOOKS AND SAYINGS OF JESUS WILLY NILLY.  SOME OF THEM DENIED CHRISTIANITY AFTERWARDS, ONE CAME OUT OF THE CLOSET, AND SOME ARE STILL PREACHING SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE GOSPEL.  SO I AM SURE THEY ALSO TOSSED OUT THE VERSE THAT STATES ANYONE PREACHING ANOTHER GOSPEL IS DAMNED.  

DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ.  HIGHER TEXTUAL CRITICISM WAS LARGELY WRITTEN BY UNBELIEVERS WHO DON'T KNOW WHICH END IS UP.

[JohnD]

I sound like a broken record, I know...

The over all point Jesus was driving at in Matthew 16:13-23 was the distinction between the things of God versus the things of man (which ultimately comes from Satan which is why Jesus called Peter that). 1 Corinthians 2 delves into this deeper and Proverbs 14:12 and 16:25 summarize this verbatim.

We also have factors of satanic infiltration into the Church via Roman Catholicism (which the Roman Empire morphed into) and Protestant reformation movements that did not reform enough...

The Church Organization sets itself up as the Body of Christ to the world. But the Church Organism truly is.

Trouble is, extremely few believers in Jesus Christ know this.

Most are leery of dealing with the subject (mainly because they want to continue passing the buck of their own calling / duty to Christ on to a "professional" Christian... or there have been several who pointed these flaws out before to develop cult followings of their own).

The best way to evangelize the world in every generation is on an individual basis (which is how the Church Organism is set up beginning with conversion to faith in Christ). We are priests of God as believers in his Son. We have individual callings of various kinds and individual ministries according to the calling and gifting of the Lord.

Nothing stymies this more than the Organization which moots so many of these by simple falsified classification (clergy / laity). Further it foists humanist traditions and other than Holy Spirit interpretations of the Bible causing division and [again] stymied ministries / evangelism.

Pick and choose theology / Bible study is as old as the hills and as diverse as the divisions in the Church Organization...

Pauline theology / doctrines are among the many rejected truths in the Bible.

No surprise here.