We Are Told Not To Question Someone's Faith But...

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

44 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

I guess what I am thinking here is more like a close friend or family member. Not so much a person you see at church each Sunday that you don't really know.  But I would think that you would wonder about a close friend or family member's salvation if they were on an on going basses living a life that did not reflect Christ. But not only that, but when you would say anything to them about it they would blow you off by saying something like "Well I'm a Christian. I go to church." Something like that is what I am getting at. I don't know it is hard for me to clearly say what is on my mind. 

That's a tough one. I mentioned in a pervious post about how Catholics say they are Catholics and than support things like abortion or gay marriage. Which the Church opposes. How can someone look at their actions/choices and say they're Catholic. 

So I get what you're saying. I guess I would just reiterate that I don't believe that your being a Christian automatically means your saved. I think that when you become a Christian there is a mark put on your soul. You are changed forever. A new creation as Paul says. But I don't believe that you get an automatic get out of hell ticket. It's a process of obidience and faith. Obidience to do the will of the Father and faith that he is a loving and merciful God. So much so he took on flesh and was nailed to a cross. For you, for me and for that guy that made the cashier cry at Walmart (  )

So if you have a friend or family member that is being cavalier about being a Christian and living a life contrary to what Jesus taught. I would worry more about encouraging the person to better their behaviour more that worrying if their a Christian or not. 

Just my thoughts

Cheers and God Bless

[Neighbor]

14 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

I guess what I am thinking here is more like a close friend or family member. Not so much a person you see at church each Sunday that you don't really know.  But I would think that you would wonder about a close friend or family member's salvation if they were on an on going basses living a life that did not reflect Christ. But not only that, but when you would say anything to them about it they would blow you off by saying something like "Well I'm a Christian. I go to church." Something like that is what I am getting at. I don't know it is hard for me to clearly say what is on my mind. 

You are very clear, and I believe correct in the assessment and concern. From my personal vantage point though, I resist making judgement of another's "Christianity". I trust God to work through to His satisfaction the sanctification of my fellow saints in Christ Jesus.

 Now if in that  process my creator uses you and others to  raise a question or alert for  someone I know well or have  even just casual context with, that is between you and our Lord. I just do not feel led to go about my own day asking myself is that one saved , what of that one, why I saw them do such and such. Nope  it is not my calling  to go about correcting my Lord's servants.  

I work at a local body of Christ, and I hear the question; "Were they saved?"  or, " I don't know if they are saved." quite often. I personally think; What? If they have died it doesn't matter any longer, and if they are alive they are of  the flock of Jesus or they are not. Their works may be good and  they still not be saved, or their efforts may  be near invisible and yet they are saved. The question seems to me to be judgement without any useful purpose.

 I do find however that God  has assigned a bunch of people, and I mean a whole bunch to keep me in correction. Bless them one and all. Sincerely, bless them for they mean well, and a few might actually be led of the Holy Spirit to help me too.

I do kinda wonder about the saint that  told me in front of  a lady's work group that really I should dress better, after all I do represent the church. I have gotten such a chuckle again and again about that one. 

 I have learned it is somehow important how I dress  to at least one saint. 

[BobRyan]

4 hours ago, other one said:

the problem is where do you draw the line....    if a KKK person really believes and is convinced that what they are doing is the work of the Lord, where does that leave them?

We can't know a person's heart so it really isn't up to us to decide who is saved and who is not.         Jesus said that no one comes to the father except through him.....   that doesn't mean that we have some ritual to go through to be saved and have to do certain things.....   it means he makes that decision and no one but him can do so.  Only he knows the relationship between himself and the person so it's really not possible for us to know.

We can question things but should in my opinion never ever declare what is.

We can point to what the Bible declares to be right.

We can point to the specific way the Bible defines sin

We can point to what the Bible says about rebellion and how that determines result - in the way that Romans 2 does it.

 

Then let the Holy Spirit convict people as He wills. And let each person have their own free will - provided what they are doing is not illegal.

[BobRyan]

1 hour ago, LadyKay said:

I guess what I am thinking here is more like a close friend or family member. Not so much a person you see at church each Sunday that you don't really know.  But I would think that you would wonder about a close friend or family member's salvation if they were on an on going basses living a life that did not reflect Christ. But not only that, but when you would say anything to them about it they would blow you off by saying something like "Well I'm a Christian. I go to church." Something like that is what I am getting at. I don't know it is hard for me to clearly say what is on my mind. 

If your child or loved one in some other category is doing something that indicates they are going to hell - by all means raise a 3-alarm fire siren with them over it. If it is an adult brother or sister our cousin then you have less 3-alarm-fire siren options but take as many openings as God will give you to save them.

[Your closest friendnt]

36 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

I guess what I am thinking here is more like a close friend or family member. Not so much a person you see at church each Sunday that you don't really know.  But I would think that you would wonder about a close friend or family member's salvation if they were on an on going basses living a life that did not reflect Christ. But not only that, but when you would say anything to them about it they would blow you off by saying something like "Well I'm a Christian. I go to church." Something like that is what I am getting at. I don't know it is hard for me to clearly say what is on my mind. 

We all have the same consern, and how do we go addressing this consern, or how should we about it. 

This becomes complicated for many reasons, many will consider Scriptures that meant for various other reasons, ( now I am becoming very vague in my presentation). 

I would rather consider the heart of the matter, which the Gospel. 

There is great confusion about the word "SAVED", (to be born from above), (to be SAVED from Hell), to have inherit Heaven together with JESUS CHRIST) .  (Paul said: (believe in Jesus Christ). 

Paul also is addressing Believers in JESUS CHRIST who are "SAVED" from Hell, (born from above), Heavenly bound, because of their believing in JESUS CHRIST. 

And he is instructing them how to be saved from their own selfs, if this is the right word to use, when we look forwards to a change of a new way of looking towards if how to change our selfs in some way and be better than we were before. 

(and how to go about to become rooted in our faith )

(and Paul gives instructions how to grow in becoming a disciple of the cause of the faith of JESUS CHRIST). 

All those secontery instructions if Paul, are given to those who are SAVED, and to reflect to their walk here on earth. 

So that's how I learned to look at my family and friends. 

I will satisfy myself if I see that the Believe in Jesus Christ, then I have my peace that they are SAVED from Hell. And that they are under the blood of Jesus Christ, because they believe in him. 

Some are RCC, EO, Coptics, Mormons, evangelicals, Penticost, SDA, JW, and so on, as long as they have the primary element of the Gospel, that is to believe that Jesus died on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins, that's how someone is under the blood of Jesus Christ , whether they know it or not. 

The important thing is that not only JESUS CHRIST knows that, but also to surprise of many is, that the Devil knows that, and he does, and he never can ask JESUS to give him those who have die with faith in him. 

But many of us who don't have this knowledge (if I can put it in this way), the knowledge of the Devil that they are under the blood of Jesus Christ because they believe, we are asking JESUS CHRIST to give his own redeemed ones to the Devil, not that the Devil, dares to ask JESUS CHRIST for those, but we do, and we have Scriptures and arguments why JESUS CHRIST should give some or his redeemed to the Devil, or order the Devil to take them to Hell, when the Devil refused to Take the redeemed of JESUS CHRIST. 

 

[Mike 2]

7 hours ago, notsolostsoul said:

Matthew 7: 3-5 nkjv

And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye,  but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, Let me remove the speck from your eye, and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother.

Once again we are not authorize to judge another and should be mindful of our own words and behaviors when addressing or dealing with one another. 

notsolostsoul you happened to bring this up this time but it is something I see often. 

I am sure that most people stop reading that passage before verse 5 or figure they already have an understanding and don't let verse 5 sink in. (like Joh 3:16...no one seems to read vs 18's huge meaning)

 I think most may be misunderstanding this passage. Please see my hi-lights above.

It is saying that you CAN judge someone else but you cannot be effective in discernment, rebuking and correction if you yourself are doing the same or worse.

This whole passage including "judge not...lest you be judged" (what about vs 2?) is so often taken to mean the wrong thing.

IT DOES NOT MEAN DON'T JUDGE

Yes I put it in caps because I want to shout it out.

It does say that we need to be aware that if we are going to make a judgment call with the intention of making a correction; we had better be in a position where we won't hear someone say 'Well, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black"....practice what you preach.                                         There is a real danger of doing a disservice to our Lord if we aren't walking the talk!

A very good biblical example of this is Paul addressing Peters hypocrisy in Galatians: 

Gal 2:11  But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly wrong. 

Paul made a judgement call based on Peter's (Cephas) behavior. The important thing to remember is that Paul made that call from a position where he was not doing the same thing as Peter and Paul's intention was not to put Peter down but to help him grow and ultimately, better spread the gospel.

When I run into someone claiming to be a Christian but not acting like one I wonder why that is and I start asking questions....

What do you mean by "Christian"...what is a Christian?

How long have you been a Christian?

If someone claiming to be  Christian is not acting like one, we have to help them along.

That's Paul's advice.

2Ti 3:16  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 
2Ti 3:17  so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good action.

If they claim to be a Christian but it sure appears that they are not, I feel obliged on behalf of my Lord to point them towards the truth. Learning to ask the right questions that will "put a pebble in their sandals" is often the most effective and gentle way to do that.

For sure one thing we are not able to judge is a persons final destination....only the Lord knows a persons soul.

Lady Kay's title "We are Told Not to Question Someones Faith"  seems like a cliche phrase....has anyone bothered to check if that's a biblical truth? Or is it a spin on another man made cliche..."we aren't supposed to judge others"....  taken from Mat: 7?

I think if Lady Kay (or any of us for that matter) were to believe that cliche she may miss out on an opportunity to help steer someone closer to God.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Mike 2

[daughterofGrace]

I'm big on defining terms.  Therefore, before we can even discuss whether we think someone is a Christian or not, we have to define just what it is to be one.  I put it this way:

A Christian is someone who is born-again (spirit brought alive in Christ) and who has entered, by faith, into a relationship with God through the person of Jesus Christ by the infilling of the Holy Spirit. 

That's it.  That's what a Christian is.

As such, he/she recognizes that Christ is the second person of the Triune Godhead, that he was born of a virgin and that, as God Incarnate, he died on the cross to atone for the sins of humankind, but rose from the dead three days later.  He is currently seated at the right hand of God and will return at a time unknown to us.

In other words, a true Christian is going to profess orthodox Christianity.  He or she will espouse the above primary doctrines. 

I have found that the most obvious way of telling whether someone really is born-again and Spirit-filled and in a relationship with Jesus is how they think of Christ.  If they get Jesus wrong, then they can't be Christians or they would know who he is.  And there are, of course, people claiming to be Christians who do get Jesus wrong. The Mormons come to mind first and foremost.

Additionally, there are cultural Christians, that is, people who grow up in a culture based on a Judeo-Christian foundation.  And there are nominal Christians, people who attend church and consider their participation in that church as what it means to be a Christian.  In these cases, they aren't really Christians because there is no relationship, no rebirth, no infilling of the Holy Spirit.

A true Christian should enter into a life-long process of sanctification upon conversion, empowered and guided by the Holy Spirit.  The goal is to become like Jesus.  But I fully realize that some believers might not know anything about that because of the churches they attend.  I say that because I attended church for quite a while with the Holy Spirit being the "silent partner" in the Christian life.  The denomination I was raised in didn't teach about the Holy Spirit, about sanctification, etc.  I had to learn it as an adult much later in a different denomination altogether. 

I always say there are no perfect Christians, only Christians in the process of being perfected.  And yes, sometimes we can make such a mess that people question whether we really do know God.  But at that point, confession and genuine repentance are the signs that we love and follow Christ. 

But the bottom line is this:  Only God can see right into our hearts and that's where the true identity of us all rests.

Edited May 25, 2017 by daughterofGrace
corrected typos -- a lot of them!

[daughterofGrace]

3 minutes ago, Mike 2 said:

notsolostsoul you happened to bring this up this time but it is something I see often. 

I am sure that most people stop reading that passage before verse 5 or figure they already have an understanding and don't let verse 5 sink in. (like Joh 3:16...no one seems to read vs 18's huge meaning)

 I think most may be misunderstanding this passage. Please see my hi-lights above.

It is saying that you CAN judge someone else but you cannot be effective in discernment, rebuking and correction if you yourself are doing the same or worse.

This whole passage including "judge not...lest you be judged" (what about vs 2?) is so often taken to mean the wrong thing.

IT DOES NOT MEAN DON'T JUDGE

Yes I put it in caps because I want to shout it out.

It does say that we need to be aware that if we are going to make a judgment call with the intention of making a correction; we had better be in a position where we won't hear someone say 'Well, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black"....practice what you preach.                                         There is a real danger of doing a disservice to our Lord if we aren't walking the talk!

A very good biblical example of this is Paul addressing Peters hypocrisy in Galatians: 

Gal 2:11  But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly wrong. 

Paul made a judgement call based on Peter's (Cephas) behavior. The important thing to remember is that Paul made that call from a position where he was not doing the same thing as Peter and Paul's intention was not to put Peter down but to help him grow and ultimately, better spread the gospel.

When I run into someone claiming to be a Christian but not acting like one I wonder why that is and I start asking questions....

What do you mean by "Christian"...what is a Christian?

How long have you been a Christian?

If someone claiming to be  Christian is not acting like one, we have to help them along.

That's Paul's advice.

2Ti 3:16  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 
2Ti 3:17  so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good action.

If they claim to be a Christian but it sure appears that they are not, I feel obliged on behalf of my Lord to point them towards the truth. Learning to ask the right questions that will "put a pebble in their sandals" is often the most effective and gentle way to do that.

For sure one thing we are not able to judge is a persons final destination....only the Lord knows a persons soul.

Lady Kay's title "We are Told Not to Question Someones Faith"  seems like a cliche phrase....has anyone bothered to check if that's a biblical truth? Or is it a spin on another man made cliche..."we aren't supposed to judge others"....  taken from Mat: 7?

I think if Lady Kay (or any of us for that matter) were to believe that cliche she may miss out on an opportunity to help steer someone closer to God.

 

 

Thanks so much for explaining that passage about judging, Mike 2.  I so agree.  It doesn't tell us NOT to judge.  It tells us HOW not to judge -- that is, hypocritically, condemning someone for something that we ourselves are guilty of. 

[other one]

5 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

We can point to what the Bible declares to be right.

We can point to the specific way the Bible defines sin

We can point to what the Bible says about rebellion and how that determines result - in the way that Romans 2 does it.

 

Then let the Holy Spirit convict people as He wills. And let each person have their own free will - provided what they are doing is not illegal.

But many people here tell me that all one has to do to be saved is believe.  After many years of talking about it I pretty much decided not to get into those threads.....  oddly enough some of those who have proposed belief only are the ones who come back and judge people.

Personally I am a full blown Lordship guy thinking belief is a first step.  But even at that point I can't say that I could judge someone's heart, nor what the Holy Spirit might have someone do.  Everything we do affects people around us and we really never know what some of our actions might be used to help others.

[BobRyan]

3 minutes ago, other one said:

But many people here tell me that all one has to do to be saved is believe.  After many years of talking about it I pretty much decided not to get into those threads.....  oddly enough some of those who have proposed belief only are the ones who come back and judge people.

Personally I am a full blown Lordship guy thinking belief is a first step.  But even at that point I can't say that I could judge someone's heart, nor what the Holy Spirit might have someone do.  Everything we do affects people around us and we really never know what some of our actions might be used to help others.

As Paul said in 2 Cor 5 "We BEG you on behalf of Christ -- be reconciled to God".

And again in 1 Cor 9 "I discipline my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others - I myself should be disqualified from it"

And then we have Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith... you should fear for if He did not spare them He will not spare you either"

 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Romans 2:13-16 - also pretty interesting