Revelation, Sequenced by the Actual Events

[iamlamad]

On 6/13/2017 at 2:36 PM, wingnut- said:

The age ends at the judgement, this is what Jesus says as an answer to the final question regarding the end of the age.  It is found in the last part of Matthew 24 continuing into Matthew 25, where the sheep and goats are separated.  You are trying to change that and place it earlier, but what Jesus said is the truth.  I am quite certain He knows better than any person does, so I will go with His answer.

 

The elect are and always have been believers, it has never changed.  The inclusion of the Gentiles was prophesied about long ago in the OT.  It was the same before Jesus died, consider Enoch, he was not a Jew, he pre-dates Israel.  What you are forgetting is what it means to be grafted in, it is not something that can be simply undone when it seems convenient for you.  Here are some pertinent things for you to consider.

 

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

 

You see, Abraham and Isaac weren't Jews either, Israel didn't even exist until Jacob wrestled with God.  It's safe to say that they are elect though don't you think?  Are they still part of Israel?  According to scripture, yes, because they are elect.  Jacob and Esau both come from Isaac, but Esau is not Israel, his descendants are Edom.  It is the children of the promise that are counted as the seed, the children of the flesh are not the children of God.  The only separation supported in scripture is clear, sons of God and sons of the devil.  Abraham was the father of "many nations", not just one, and it was justification by faith.

 

Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

Belief and unbelief are the deciding factor, nothing more, nothing less.  Only one way to obtain salvation my friend, Jesus Christ.

 

On 6/12/2017 at 1:38 PM, iamlamad said:

I don't believe that Luke's version was a different discourse.

 

Nor do I.

People have all sorts of vivid imaginations, the group that flees to the wilderness are clearly from the nation of Israel.  What you seem to be forgetting is that there are Messianic Jews who live in Israel, such as the steward of this forum.  Jesus came to save the whole world though, not just one group, and considering this discourse comes from the same Holy Spirit, it is safe to say He understood the OT prophecies regarding the Gentiles and the whole grafting in bit.

  Priceless!  I guess you suffer from tunnel vision and think that where you live represents all of Christianity.  I hate to break it to you, but in places like Africa, Asia, the Middle East, etc., they don't believe in your theory, nor has it ever crossed their minds as a possibility.  That is the difference between people who have never suffered real persecution and those who have.  So if you think that is true, you better get over to these places and set them straight.

Funny, it's important to understand something that doesn't apply to you.  I guess when you see it you will understand.

All those verses referring to the saints and you don't see it?  Do you see this I wonder?

 

Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,

‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’

 

A letter to a church, told not to fear what they are about to suffer.  Thrown into prison by the devil, facing tribulation, until death.  Do you see any chastisement of this church in the above?

 

Revelation 2:23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

24 “Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

 

This to the church in Thyatira, look closely at verse 23.  How is it that all the churches shall know if they are not here?  And do you notice they must hold fast until He comes, and those who overcome until the end He gives power over the nations.  The information is there, it appears to me you just don't want to see it.

God bless

I said, THEIR age ends. They were living under the law, and because of their unbelief, still are - even when it is really the age of Grace. The end of THEIR age is the 70th week of Daniel.

Dan 9:²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

These 70 week will take Israel from where they were in Jesus time to where they will be at the start of the Millennial Reign of Christ. The first 69 were finished when Jesus died. the 70th week is still future and will be the final end of THEIR age. The church age, or the age of Grace is as a parenthesis inserted right into their age: it began and will end just before the 70th week.  Untold millions of Christians around the world believe this because it is what they see in scripture. I personally believe we are very close to the end of the church age.

"The elect are and always have been believers, it has never changed."  We agree. What we disagree on is that the pretrib rapture will remove the believers before the 70th week comes. So the "elect" of the church are GONE. Who then on earth will be the "elect?" It will be NEW BELIEVERS and Jews that will not believe until they SEE Him whom they pierced.

" I hate to break it to you, but in places like Africa, Asia, the Middle East, etc., they don't believe in your theory, nor has it ever crossed their minds as a possibility."

Actually, someone tried to tell me that the pretrib theory is only a Western theory and that no believers in Africa believe in a pretrib rapture. Therefore I sent message to many in Africa - perhaps around 50 people. I wanted to see what they did believe about a pretrib rapture. I have received perhaps 30 answers so far, and found that believers there are just like believers here: and many there are expecting a pretrib coming just as here in the USA. I simply asked them if they believed the rapture or gathering of the church would come before the days of great tribulation or after.

Now, why would that be? Could it be that they see a pretrib rapture in scripture just as many believers here do? Or could it be that Missionaries have deceived them all over there?

Edited June 15, 2017 by iamlamad

[Daniel 11:36]

"The elect are and always have been believers, it has never changed."  We agree. What we disagree on is that the pretrib rapture will remove the believers before the 70th week comes. So the "elect" of the church are GONE. Who then on earth will be the "elect?" It will be NEW BELIEVERS and Jews that will not believe until they SEE Him whom they pierced."

 

This is exactly correct

[wingnut-]

7 hours ago, Keras said:

Thanks, Wingnut. 

As we have quite different views on future happenings, it's best to leave this discussion now. I will post a sequence of events, supported by many Bible prophesies soon.

 

No problem brother,

God bless

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"The elect are and always have been believers, it has never changed."  We agree. What we disagree on is that the pretrib rapture will remove the believers before the 70th week comes. So the "elect" of the church are GONE. Who then on earth will be the "elect?" It will be NEW BELIEVERS and Jews that will not believe until they SEE Him whom they pierced."

 

This is exactly correct

Mostly true here......I just want to point out that Israel/Jews don't actually see Jesus, they just come to believe in the One they pierced because of the Two-witnesses. The Elect are those Elected to Salvation via the Blood, be it old Testament Saints who BELIEVED in the coming of the PROMISED SEED (Jesus) and thus was Justified by Faith, or by those who BELIEVED on Jesus after he was Sacrificed. They both received Salvation because of FAITH/BELIEF in the Perfect nature/essence of the Sacrifice !! 

The Elect are those who BELIEVE that God is perfect and Holy and thus RECEIVE the Salvation of the Lamb God provided unto us.

[wingnut-]

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

But those who have died in Christ will come with Him to join with their body in the air. I said, "they return to earth" to get their bodies. They don't get them IN HEAVEN, they come to the earth - but as you said, it will be in the air around the earth.

But you leave them on earth when the marriage will be in heaven. 

 

  You are very confused apparently, you say in the first sentence they join with their body in the air, then you say they return to earth in the next sentence, and the sentence after that.  Then you correctly say that I said it happens in the air, and then you say incorrectly that I leave them on earth.  You're talking in circles and making me dizzy    It happens in the air, precisely where scripture says it does.

 

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are still left with the same problem: HOW will they return to heaven for the marriage and supper?

 

The air is heaven, the clouds are in the heavens, just like the birds flying in the air are in the midst of the heavens.  You are incorrect to imagine a marriage ceremony, it is a metaphor, and claims of people who have been there and seen it are not evidence of anything.  People convince themselves of all kinds of things that are not true.

Did you see the movie Heaven is Real?  Great big hoax.  When I took psychology we watched this study on people, they sent a group of 12 into the place known as area 51, with helmet cams on, they believed they were there to do a nature study.  Before going in, they were told not to walk off the path and that the military patrolled the area so they were only allowed to stay on this path.  As they walked out there, there was an army jeep with two men dressed in fatigues standing by it.  The two men just stood there, never even looked in the direction of the group.

About a month later they brought these people back in to do interviews regarding the event.  All 12 of them told fantastic stories, some of them claiming the soldiers pointed assault rifles at them, they all claimed to have been threatened and verbally challenged, some even claimed there was an entire platoon of soldiers there.  Afterward they reminded them that they had cameras on their helmets, and that they wanted them to watch what their cameras had recorded.  Half of them were in awe of their creative embellishment, and completely embarrassed at how incorrectly they had recalled the events.  The other half refused to believe the truth, and claimed the recordings were not accurate.  The point is, human beings have creative memories, they construct their own realities.

So your decision to believe people have seen this and that makes it true just doesn't hold any weight at all, it is evidence of nothing.  It is no more factual than me telling you I have seen little green men flying around outside my house at night.  You choose to believe it because you want it to be true, but I will stick with what scripture says because I know people aren't accurate about actual events, much less what they dream about.  Doctors told me I died once, when my heart stopped beating, do you know what I saw?  Nothing, except for a bunch of faces I didn't know after they stuck a huge needle in my heart to get it going again.  Lucky for me I was standing in the ER when my heart stopped, although I know it wasn't luck at all, it was not my time.

 

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Of course you are moving it: to the air. In your imagination, that is where it must be, because that is where all are gathered.

 

I Corinthians 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

 

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of His body,of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

 

Romans 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.

 

I Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

 

The first two passages give you the biblical definition of marriage, the two become one flesh, joined to the Lord in one Spirit.  Paul tells us that he speaks concerning Christ and the church.  So who is the church?  Believers right?  Ethnicity is irrelevant, it is one body, one Spirit, and it includes the Jews and the Gentiles.  It is only my imagination if the above scripture is my imagination, because the two are joined at the resurrection.

 

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I don't think so. When I read Rev. 19, I see the church already in heaven. The church or bride of Christ has already made herself ready.

 

Perhaps the parable of the wedding feast would help clarify how it works.

 

Matthew 22:2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.”’   4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.”’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

 

The bride makes herself ready before the wedding, you never see a bride coming down the aisle still getting her dress on.

 

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

(the Jews who fled)  If they get caught up as you suppose, then you have jumped from the frying pan in the fire, so to speak. SOMEONE has to remain behind to repopulate the earth. In other words, SOMEONE (meaning many, not one) must be in natural bodies. And they MUST BE  believers to enter the Millennial reign of Christ.

 

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

There they are right there, following the resurrection in verse 12.

 

Zechariah 14:5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

 

Same group you see there in Zechariah.

 

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please don't try and tell us now that the 6th seal will actually happen at the same time as the Rev. 19 events!

 

The 6th seal is opened prior to Revelation 19, it is the sign of His coming, meaning it precedes His coming.

 

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

The seal must be opened first according to this passage.

God bless

[n2thelight]

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

The word "cloud", Paul used to express a fact of many people gathering into one body.

In Hebrews 12:1, they are gathering to run a foot race. When they run, the racers bunch up into a pack, This bunching of the runners, Paul calls a "cloud". "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

There are many "raisings to the Lord", because every time someone died, there is a raising for that soul to go to the presence of the Lord. "Resurrect" has several meanings in the Bible, in fact every time you stand up for Jesus, you are "resurrected". It means a new life, whether by death, or by the redemption of your soul to a new life in Christ.

"Air" in the Greek dictionary is #109, and is the "breath of life", your "breath of life" body is your soul or spiritual body.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

Paul is only talking about "where are the dead",

 

Christ is coming here to earth to establish His kingdom here. There is no in-between. To make this damnable doctrine into the Scripture, is to force a lie into the Word of God. Go back through the verses given in this I Thessalonians 4:13-19, and all related verses. Try to understand that Christ's return for His saints is at the last trump, and remember, Satan [Antichrist] arrives at the fifth trump.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

But those who have died in Christ will come with Him to join with their body in the air. I said, "they return to earth" to get their bodies. They don't get them IN HEAVEN, they come to the earth - but as you said, it will be in the air around the earth.

But you leave them on earth when the marriage will be in heaven. 

 

  You are very confused apparently, you say in the first sentence they join with their body in the air, then you say they return to earth in the next sentence, and the sentence after that.  Then you correctly say that I said it happens in the air, and then you say incorrectly that I leave them on earth.  You're talking in circles and making me dizzy    It happens in the air, precisely where scripture says it does.

Where do you imagine the "air" is? Do you imagine it is in heaven where the throne of God is? There well may be "air" there above the throne of God, but Paul was talking about EARTH'S air where we see clouds! Surely you know this and are only trying to build yourself up and put me down. I understand that.

I hope you understand, the "dead in Christ" are currently "bodyless." They are right now spirit and soul but their body was buried and for some, of course returned to dust.  But God is going to turn that dust back into their body, and then change it into a resurrection body. It will be THEIR body, but it will be a resurrection body that will never die.  This is not that difficult.

"They return to earth:"  These are those who have died in Christ. They (spirit and soul) have been in heaven where Jesus is. Their new resurrection bodies are NOT GOING TO GO TO HEAVEN for them to meet with their new bodies. They are going to leave heaven and return to earth with Jesus AT HIS NEXT COMING. At the sound of the trumpet all the dead in Christ's bodies will fly up from the grave by the power of the Holy Spirit, and their spirit and soul will meet with their body, IN THE AIR. That is, the AIR around the earth. The very air we breathe. Again, this is not difficult.

John 14 tells us that after their spirit and soul have obtained a new resurrection body, and they are whole again, they will go where JESUS will be. Since all this will take place pretrib (John saw the raptured church around the throne of God before he ever even started the "trib) Jesus will be IN HEAVEN at that time, so the dead in Christ, now alive in Christ with their new bodies, will go to heaven while Jesus will go BACK to heaven as their escort.  Of course those who are alive in Christ will accompany them.

In your theory, if I have it right, Jesus left earth for heaven, to prepare homes (palaces, mansions) for His church on earth, but then never takes His church to those mansions He has prepared. I don't think that is the intent of the Author in John 14.

If I don't understand your theory, suppose instead of poking fun, you explain it.

Note: When someone leaves the moon as our astronauts have,  and it is said that they are "coming" to  "return to earth" do you imagine they must touch down and set their feet on the ground to satisfy "return to earth?  is not the atmosphere around the earth sufficient to say they returned to earth? Make no mistake here: Jesus is coming soon, but ONLY to the atmosphere. He will not "touch down." He will return to heaven with His Bride. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, n2thelight said:

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

The word "cloud", Paul used to express a fact of many people gathering into one body.

In Hebrews 12:1, they are gathering to run a foot race. When they run, the racers bunch up into a pack, This bunching of the runners, Paul calls a "cloud". "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

There are many "raisings to the Lord", because every time someone died, there is a raising for that soul to go to the presence of the Lord. "Resurrect" has several meanings in the Bible, in fact every time you stand up for Jesus, you are "resurrected". It means a new life, whether by death, or by the redemption of your soul to a new life in Christ.

"Air" in the Greek dictionary is #109, and is the "breath of life", your "breath of life" body is your soul or spiritual body.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

Paul is only talking about "where are the dead",

 

Christ is coming here to earth to establish His kingdom here. There is no in-between. To make this damnable doctrine into the Scripture, is to force a lie into the Word of God. Go back through the verses given in this I Thessalonians 4:13-19, and all related verses. Try to understand that Christ's return for His saints is at the last trump, and remember, Satan [Antichrist] arrives at the fifth trump.

On the other hand, the clouds we see are in the air - the very air we breathe.

Air - Strong's Greek 109:  "the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air"( Root word: From aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow) )

Why then did you write "breath of life?" OF COURSE AIR IS LIFE TO US. Are you greater than Strong's that gave us the Greek dictionary? Are you wishing to change what He wrote? Do you imagine he was mistaken?

As for "cloud" the very same Greek word is used in this sentence:

Luk 12:54  And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud G3507 rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.

I have a question: can we just be "real" here? Paul is speaking of a RAIN cloud. The very clouds we see in the air. However, when He comes FOR His church, the cloud will perhaps be a glory cloud.

Jesus went to HEAVEN (you know, that planet where God dwells and where His throne is) to build for us mansions or palaces or shacks: HOUSES for us to live in. Then one day He will come and get us and TAKE us to those houses He has built. One would have to be living in a cave not to know that many people have been allowed to visit heaven and SEE these houses God has prepared.  This is the very intent of John 14. 

Some would imagine that Jesus went to heaven to build mansions and then never took us there.

There is a "last trump" that will, without much doubt, be the final trumpet blast at the feast of trumpets. That could be ANY YEAR and may be THIS YEAR. This "last" or final trump of Paul is in no way related to John's 7th trumpet in Revelation. Oh, that is the "last" trump of that series.  But Paul was not talking about that series of trumpets in Revelation.

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, n2thelight said:

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

The word "cloud", Paul used to express a fact of many people gathering into one body.

In Hebrews 12:1, they are gathering to run a foot race. When they run, the racers bunch up into a pack, This bunching of the runners, Paul calls a "cloud". "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

There are many "raisings to the Lord", because every time someone died, there is a raising for that soul to go to the presence of the Lord. "Resurrect" has several meanings in the Bible, in fact every time you stand up for Jesus, you are "resurrected". It means a new life, whether by death, or by the redemption of your soul to a new life in Christ.

The Souls of the Dead live in Hades or the Grave, Jesus went there to speak to the lost souls. They are said to sleep. Thus in 1 Cor. 15 they are said to arise from their graves/sleep to meet the Lord Jesus in the air, as we do. We of course DIE and leave our earthly bodies on earth and go meet the Lord in the air also.

2 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Christ is coming here to earth to establish His kingdom here. There is no in-between. To make this damnable doctrine into the Scripture, is to force a lie into the Word of God. Go back through the verses given in this I Thessalonians 4:13-19, and all related verses. Try to understand that Christ's return for His saints is at the last trump, and remember, Satan [Antichrist] arrives at the fifth trump.

The Last Trump has nothing to do with the Seven Trumps in Revelation nor can it, it is of course great fodder for Satan to deceive people with. The Seven Feasts of Leviticus are shown to be the pattern whereby God gives us a hint at his intentions.

Seven Feasts of Leviticus

1. Feast of Passover   2 Feast of Unleavened Bread 3. Feast of First-fruits....Jesus fulfilled all of these Feasts of course. 

 

4. The Feast of Pentecost (Harvest) is all unto itself (Church Age) we are the Body of the Sower, we are to Harvest the lost souls for 2000 years until the Rapture. 

 

5. Feast of TRUMPETS, 6. Feast of Atonement, 7. Feast of Tabernacle. These three Feasts are Fall Feasts, when the TRUMPET sounded it was understood that the Harvest was OVER and that the Feast of Atonement was near. Thus when the Last Trump Sounds, the Church will be Raptured because the HARVEST will be over and the time for ISRAEL'S ATONEMENT will be at hand. After Israel Atones/Repents and accepts Jesus as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10 and 13:1, Malachi 4:5-6) then Jesus will return and defeat the Anti-Christ/Beast (Zechariah 14, Rev. 16:19, Rev. 19 etc.) and Israel will TABERNACLE = DWELL......Israel will Dwell with God. 

 

The Last Trump has nothing to do with the Trumps of Gods Judgments. 

 

 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The air is heaven, the clouds are in the heavens, just like the birds flying in the air are in the midst of the heavens.  You are incorrect to imagine a marriage ceremony, it is a metaphor, and claims of people who have been there and seen it are not evidence of anything.  People convince themselves of all kinds of things that are not true.

On the other hand, both Peter and Paul told us THEIR stories. Do you imagine Peter and Paul convinced themselves of "all kinds of things that were not true?"

Why would you even imagine that a believer - one with faith in Jesus Christ as their savior - one who KNOWs the scripture says liars will not make it to heaven - would just make up stories? Today we have TOO MANY such stories, all telling us similar things (because they all saw the same things). God said let everything be established with two or three witnesses. We have dozens.

Why would you imagine that God has changed: that He took people to heaven in the Old Testament but under the New Testament has not? Have you not read the books of Isaiah and Ezekiel? They SAW heaven. And they told us what they saw. When a believer today tells us they saw the four beasts, and describes them quite like John did, why should we doubt them? Do you just imagine that all other believers besides yourself are liars? You amaze me. 

Was the receiving of the Law under Moses, when the mountain shook and scared all the people - was that a "metaphor?"

 

You are are STILL left with the same problem: John tells us the marriage will take place in heaven, before Jesus gets on His white horse.  Why try to sidestep this issue by saying there will be no ceremony? There will certainly be SOMETHING, and after that will be the marriage supper. Or will you turn that too into a metaphor?

Let me assist you here: Rev. 19 begins with thanksgiving over the destruction of Babylon. Next John tells us there is a GREAT multitude, all shouting:

Hallelujah: for the Lord God omnipotent reigns. It is now time for the marriage! (it seems that the crowd says this, but perhaps they only give praise and someone else says these words about the marriage.)

(So the marriage ceremony takes place, right then.) The bride was allowed to dress in white linen, to represent the righteousness of saints. After the marriage ceremony - what ever that will be, then it will be time for the marriage supper. So that takes place - right then, after the ceremony.

Note: if we needed to know what this marriage ceremony would be, God would have told us. Obviously we don't need to know. What we do know is that there will be a supper after. It will not be a metaphor supper: it will be a real supper in heaven with our Lord. I am really looking forward to it!

In your scenario of a catching up as Christ comes down as shown in Revelation 19, you and all the body of Christ will have missed the wedding. This is only one reason why I don't buy into a posttrib rapture.

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by iamlamad