No Bible basis for a 70 week period at the end of time or a "70th" week at the end of time

[BobRyan]

On 7/14/2017 at 1:44 PM, iamlamad said:

John tells us that the city will be trampled for 42 months. There is no need to attempt to convert this to any other time: it is 42 months.

If we take a seven year period of 360 days years (the bible way of prophecy) we get 2520 days. If we divide this by 30 days in a month we get 84 months for the entire 7 years. If we divide this by 2....

The more gyrations needed - the less likely it is true.

Why not just accept it as it reads? With a simple "day for year" model that has already been spelled out for us in the case of the first coming of Christ and the 490 year timeline of Daniel 9.

 

On 7/14/2017 at 7:00 PM, Cobalt1959 said:

So . . . you can adequately explain how and when all the prophecies that point to this period in Revelation have already been fulfilled?

Indeed. With some very obvious and simple rules.

1. All apocalyptic timelines use the same day-for-year model - just as we see in Daniel 7 and its 70 weeks = 490 years example - perfectly predicting the first coming of Christ and the period of grace extended to the nation of Israel - 490 years.

2. All bible timelines are contiguous - so then the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah that Daniel discusses at the beginning cannot be corrupted by inserting gaps of undefined length into it - just as the 70 weeks prophecy as the end of Daniel 9 cannot be abused in that way.

3. The time-times-1/2Time of Daniel 7 and Rev 11,12,13 are the same length of time = 3.5 apocalyptic years = 42 apoc months = 1260 days = 1260 years. It is the same length of time in all cases - the same block of time between Christ's resurrection and the 2nd coming - that occurs between those two events. The "Dark Ages".

On 7/14/2017 at 7:00 PM, Cobalt1959 said:

The actual term of "week" is never used in Daniel 9.  That is simply the way the word  is translated in some translations.  

It is 490 days = 490 years. The first 483 years takes us exactly to the start of Christ's ministry - his 'anointing' by the Holy Spirit at His baptism - start of ministry.

That begin the last "week" and in the midst of it - he is cut off (crucified) and he causes sacrifices and offerings to cease (Hebrews 10:4-12 confirms this)

 

On 7/14/2017 at 7:00 PM, Cobalt1959 said:

 We know, from the part of prophecy in Daniel 9 that has already been fulfilled that it means weeks of years

Indeed - the day-for-year method is clearly being used in Daniel 9. It is not a "guess" it is a proven principle and can be seen to accurately predict the coming of the Messiah for Daniel. When John and Christ begin to preach they start with "the time is fulfilled" -- what time? the first 69 weeks -- the first 483 years of that contiguous 490 year timeline.

 

[BobRyan]

On 7/14/2017 at 9:59 PM, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but Daniel separated the 70th week from the 69.

 

Daniel said it is all ONE - "70 weeks have been determined" -- it is one 490 year timeline. A contiguous time prophecy - even those who try to butcher the prophecy expose their flaw by calling it "the 70th week" -- thus admitting it is in fact a single 70 week prophecy - 490 years. And of course all timelines in the Bible are contiguous within themselves. This is irrefutable.

 

Daniel 9

understand the vision:

²⁴ “Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

²⁵ “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

²⁶ “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
²⁷ Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

 

The 70 weeks are discussed in 3 parts.

 

7 weeks -- 49 years

62 weeks - 434 years

1 week -- 7 years.

 

And no excuse at all is given for "insert undefined lengths of time between each of these to totally corrupt the measuring line". Timelines are corrupted by breaking them in sgemens and injecting your own guesswork-length-of-time into them (Where even you would admit that you have no clue what unknown lengths are you wish to inject)

[Daniel 11:36]

You are wrong

Daniel sees nothing about the Lord's offering of salvation to the Gentiles, but only the things of Israel in prophecy

Once the Gentiles have been addressed, then Israel will be next [Romans 11:25 .... 11:26]

The 70th week of the 490 years is still pending 

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, BobRyan said:

 

Daniel said it is all ONE - "70 weeks have been determined" -- it is one 490 year timeline. A contiguous time prophecy - even those who try to butcher the prophecy expose their flaw by calling it "the 70th week" -- thus admitting it is in fact a single 70 week prophecy - 490 years. And of course all timelines in the Bible are contiguous within themselves. This is irrefutable.

 

Daniel 9

understand the vision:

²⁴ “Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

²⁵ “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

²⁶ “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
²⁷ Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

 

The 70 weeks are discussed in 3 parts.

 

7 weeks -- 49 years

62 weeks - 434 years

1 week -- 7 years.

 

And no excuse at all is given for "insert undefined lengths of time between each of these to totally corrupt the measuring line". Timelines are corrupted by breaking them in sgemens and injecting your own guesswork-length-of-time into them (Where even you would admit that you have no clue what unknown lengths are you wish to inject)

There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

²⁶ “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
²⁷ Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

 

Did you notice how Daniel himself separated the parts shown in red above? Did you notice the words  - meaning EVENTS - that will take place between these sparate parts of the 70th week? Notice, that AFTER the 7 weeks, and then after the 62 weeks, and BEFORE He mentions the "One week" (which we call the 70th week):

1. The Messiah is cut off

2. the people of the prince will destroy the city (accomplished in 70 AD) (proving a NON contiguous 70 weeks)

3, There will be a flood

4. There will be a war

5. Desolations will be determined until the end of the war.

6. Finally a covenant will be confirmed for ONE WEEK.

Your theory would have Daniel wrote it like this:

There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;And then one week...

Sorry, but this is not the way Daniel wrote it.

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, BobRyan said:

On 7/14/2017 at 0:44 PM, iamlamad said:

John tells us that the city will be trampled for 42 months. There is no need to attempt to convert this to any other time: it is 42 months.

If we take a seven year period of 360 days years (the bible way of prophecy) we get 2520 days. If we divide this by 30 days in a month we get 84 months for the entire 7 years. If we divide this by 2....

The more gyrations needed - the less likely it is true.

Why not just accept it as it reads? With a simple "day for year" model that has already been spelled out for us in the case of the first coming of Christ and the 490 year timeline of Daniel 9.

Of course gyrations are not needed: when John wrote of 42 months of trampling, all should just believe it as written. But then, there are people such as you that just don't believe it as written. The "gyrations" were only to show you that John's arithmetic was perfect. And to show that God chose to use a 360 day year in prophecy.

Yes, we know that if we take 69 weeks of years and multiply it by 7 and by 360 we get 173,880 days, and we know that after this count they would see their Messiah.

So what do you do when God chooses to write days - as in 1260? Do you feel a need to turn that into years? What if God MEANT for it to mean 1260 days? How else could He write it but "1260 days?" Should He have to include "and I really mean  24 hour days?"

The truth is, if we leave John's days, and months and times as they are written, they all fit perfectly with a 7 year period of time divided in the middle: 1260 days for the first half, and 1260 days for the last half.

[Daniel 11:36]

Correct .... all days, and not years

All of the prophets and John speak of the same with about 2000 years between and still ongoing

[Heavenly Sent]

On 6/9/2017 at 7:23 PM, BobRyan said:

You will often see a reference to a 70th week at the end of time "inserted" into Revelation, or Matt 24, or 1Thess 4.

None of those chapters mention a "70th week" or the "midst of the week" or any such thing.

In the bible we have these 3 rules

1. All bible timelines are unbroken and contiguous without exception. .Daniel 9:1-7 is a good example withe Jeremiah's 70 years.

2. All Apocalyptic timeline use day-for-year symbolism. Each day is one solar year.

3. Bible authors build on the previous prophetic statements of scripture.

 

Numbers in the Bible do not mean literal counts of anything so if you anyone thinks the "70th" week means the last week of 70 weeks will be totally deceived. 

[BobRyan]

On 7/19/2017 at 1:51 PM, Heavenly Sent said:

Numbers in the Bible do not mean literal counts of anything so if you anyone thinks the "70th" week means the last week of 70 weeks will be totally deceived. 

That is a highly speculative statement.

 

I prefer the "Bible is trustworthy" alternative. Which is the only way that John the baptizer and Christ could have a "Time is fulfilled" message about the 490 years of Daniel 9 and all the people knew exactly what they meant. That ship has already sailed.

 

Bible details matter.

 

On 6/9/2017 at 10:23 PM, BobRyan said:

You will often see a reference to a 70th week at the end of time "inserted" into Revelation, or Matt 24, or 1Thess 4.

None of those chapters mention a "70th week" or the "midst of the week" or any such thing.

In the bible we have these 3 rules

1. All bible timelines are unbroken and contiguous without exception. .Daniel 9:1-7 is a good example withe Jeremiah's 70 years.

2. All Apocalyptic timeline use day-for-year symbolism. Each day is one solar year.

3. Bible authors build on the previous prophetic statements of scripture.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2017 by BobRyan

[Diaste]

On 7/17/2017 at 8:51 PM, BobRyan said:

 

Daniel said it is all ONE - "70 weeks have been determined" -- it is one 490 year timeline. A contiguous time prophecy - even those who try to butcher the prophecy expose their flaw by calling it "the 70th week" -- thus admitting it is in fact a single 70 week prophecy - 490 years. And of course all timelines in the Bible are contiguous within themselves. This is irrefutable.

 

Daniel 9

understand the vision:

²⁴ “Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

²⁵ “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

²⁶ “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
²⁷ Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

 

The 70 weeks are discussed in 3 parts.

 

7 weeks -- 49 years

62 weeks - 434 years

1 week -- 7 years.

 

And no excuse at all is given for "insert undefined lengths of time between each of these to totally corrupt the measuring line". Timelines are corrupted by breaking them in sgemens and injecting your own guesswork-length-of-time into them (Where even you would admit that you have no clue what unknown lengths are you wish to inject)

That's all well and good but we have to account for Matt 24 and the specific times referenced in Rev. In Matt we are told to look to Daniel for the understanding of the A of D. In Rev 3.5 years is explicit in more than one way and at various times. While you are not incorrect, how do you reconcile the rest of the truth with your proposition?

[Steve Conley]

On 7/19/2017 at 1:51 PM, Heavenly Sent said:

Numbers in the Bible do not mean literal counts of anything so if you anyone thinks the "70th" week means the last week of 70 weeks will be totally deceived. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Of course, numbers mean literal counts. What have you been smoking? If words do not have a recognized common meaning then what good are they? 1260 days are 1260 days. 1000 years are 1000 years. A (shaw-boo-ah), translated "week", is seven of something. The context determines what it is seven of. Who is teaching you this stuff? Whoever it is, quit listening to him or her.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

Edited August 24, 2018 by Steve Conley