Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Question: are these verses telling us of ONE TIME these signs will be seen, as a sign for ONE EVENT? Or are these verses telling us of TWO DIFFERENT signs for TWO DIFFERENT events? There are more: Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
I hope all the participants here know, Revelation is written in an order. Since John numbered so many things for sequencing, why would anyone suppose it is OUT of order?
As I read it, Jesus begins this book right where John was at the time, around 95 AD. In chapter 21, we see John is beyond the thousand year reign of Christ, so far far into our future today. It just makes sense then that somewhere between chapters 1 and chapters 21, is where the church is TODAY.
I hope then that all the writers here will show us where they perceive the church is today in the book of Revelation. I am not interested in preterist thought - only those that believe much of Revelation is still future need answer.
Next, I would like to see where everyone places the start of the Day of the Lord, and WHY.
Next, where do people see the start of the 70th week and why.
Finally, where do people see the exact midpoint, and why.
Since Revelation already HAS an order, that is a chronology, I will not change it. I think the Holy Spirit knew and knows the sequence of events that is coming. Therefore, I believe any theory that must rearrange Revelation to work will immediately be suspect and in the end will be proven wrong. Further, I am convinced that it is the 70th week that is INSIDE the seals scroll, and that all 7 seals must be opened before the 70th week can begin. I see the 70th week then beginning with the 7th seal that allows the book to be opened. therefore the trumpets will come in the first half of the week.
With that said, John TELLS US where the Day of the Lord, or the Day of His wrath begins: right at the 6th seal.
Next, I see the 70th week beginning right at the 7th seal, and I see the midpoint right at the 7th trumpet. I see the week end at the 7th vial. therefore the entire week is marked by 7's.
I find it amusing that people imagine they can move events around (rearranging) revelation to fit a theory. I think it would be far wiser to create a theory from the book AS WRITTEN. I find such a theory fits all end times scriptures.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. What did Jesus mean? First, what are "those days?" 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Many people imagine that Jesus put a TITLE on the last half of the week, titling it "The Great Tribulation." No, there is no such title for the last half of the week. In Jesus' own words, there will be "those days" of "great tribulation."
What will cause "those days" of GT?
John tells us: there will be an image erected, as Nebuchadnezzar did, and the Beast will force all to worship this image or be put to death.
Next, there will be a mark established, and all must receive this mark, or be put to death. All will know, (whether they believe it or not) that to take the mark will doom them to the lake of fire. NO ONE will be able to buy or sell without the mark. Drinkable or safe water will become very hard to find. The only safe water will be in stores. But without the mark, no safe water to drink. Therefore, hunger and thirst will become intolerable and people may take the mark just to get a drink of water.
In other words, GREAT PRESSURE will be put on people to take this mark.
How long will "those days" of GT last?
First, when will "those days" begin? If we follow along with John's narrative in Revelation, we see the warning not to take the mark is in Rev. 14. And in chapter 15, we see the beheaded people begin to show up in heaven. Therefore the days of great tribulation will begin sometime between chapters 14 and 15. However, this is not to say hard times won't come before. The Beast will begin his attack on believers shortly after the midpoint. As John shows us, the False Prophet or second beast does not show up at the midpoint, but some unknown time later. It is the False prophet that convinces the people to erect this image to the Beast. So the image itself will come some unknown time after the midpoint of the week. It is also this False Prophet that creates this mark without which no one can buy or sell.
How long into the second half of the week will the image and mark be created? No one knows. John did not tell us.
HOW will God "shorten" "those days" of "great tribulation?" When the murdering of the saints gets to a peak, God will begin pouring out the vials of His wrath, which will "shorten" those days of GT. In other words, after a few of these vials, there will be no one in the Beast's armies hunting down believers or beheading them. These vials of wrath will bring the Beast's operations to a HALT. Thus, the days of GT that could be, will not be. The beast will still have his 42 months of authority, but will be rendered helpless by the vials of wrath and associated plagues.
Therefore, no one really knows how many days will be included in "those days." It is an unknown. All we can know is, the Beast, the False Prophet, and their armies will be rendered almost helpless as it relates to hunting down believers and beheading them.
It will be the number of days that gets shortened. The 70th week will not be shortened, or will the Beast's 42 months get shortened.
There may not be another verse in the bible with so much controversy as Daniel 9:27. I challenge the readers to read this verse in these different translations to give the full meaning presented by Daniel. I highlighted parts that seem different than KJV.
J.P. Green's Literal: 27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator.
Douay-Rheims Bible: 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fail: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.
The complete Jewish Bible: 27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."
Peshitta - Lamsa Translation: 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for seven weeks and half of seven weeks, then he shall cause the sacrifice and gift offerings to cease, and upon the horns of the altar the abomination of desolation; and the desolation shall continue until the end of the appointed time; the city shall remain desolate.
Wycliff Bible: 27 Forsothe (Indeed) o wouk `of yeeris (a week of years) schal conferme the couenaunt (shall confirm the covenant) to many men, and the offryng and sacrifice schal faile ( offering and sacrifice shall fail) in the myddis of the wouke of yeeris (in the middle of he week of years) ; and abhomynacioun of desolacioun (an abomination of desolation) schal be in the temple, (shall be in the temple) and the desolacioun schal contynue (the desolation shall continue) til to the parformyng and ende. (till the performing and end.)
Miles Coverdale Bible: He shall make a stronge bonde with many, for the space of a weke: and when the weke is half gone, he shal put downe the slayne and meatoffringe. And in the temple there shalbe an abhominable desolacio, till it haue destroyed all. And it is concluded, yt this waistinge shal continue vnto the ende.
Some have said that Daniel 9:27 is not talking about the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus spoke of. Yet when we see other translations, we see that Jesus was probably quoting from this verse in Daniel. In other words, Daniel 9 certain covers this abomination of desolation. However, Daniel also wrote of it in chapter 12:
Daniel 12:11 (Peshitta - Lamsa) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be abolished, and the abomination is given to destruction, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Young's literal: and from the time of the turning aside of the perpetual [sacrifice], and to the giving out of the desolating abomination, [are] days a thousand, two hundred, and ninety.
Then Daniel told us of the abomination done by Antiochus Epiphanes: This is a TYPE of what the Beast of Rev. 13 will do in our future.
Douay-Rheims Bible: Daniel 11:31: And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall defile the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the continual sacrifice: and they shall place there the abomination unto desolation.
King James: And armes shal stand on his part, and they shall pollute the Sanctuarie of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shal place the abomination that maketh desolate.
In every one of these verses, the daily sacrifice is stopped. That means, ceased: the next day there will NOT BE a sacrifice. The Complete Jewish Bible probably says it best: "put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering." How can anyone misread "put a stop to?"
Question: the theory that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection is what stopped the daily sacrifices has been proposed on this forum. When we understand that the daily sacrifices DID NOT STOP when Jesus died, and did not stop when he rose from the dead, but continued on for many years, how can it be possible that anyone can still hold to that theory? The truth is, Jesus did NOT stop the daily sacrifices: these verses tell us it is the placing of an abomination in the temple that stops the sacrifices. All Jesus did was stop the NEED for these sacrifices.
Comparing all these translations, and these verses: it is clear, there is an abomination that will cause the daily sacrifices to cease at the midpoint (halfway point) of the week. That abomination will be placed (or will walk) into the Holy of Holies, and then from that time, desolations will continue to the end.
Question: since the stopping of the daily sacrifices and the presence of the abomination of desolation are found right next to each other in one sentence, can we establish a cause and effect relationship? i think we can. The Old Testament tells us if the temple is desecrated, it must be cleansed before Sacrifices can continue again.
Now, what can we find in the New Testament that will confirm this?
Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
How can anyone with common sense deny that this is speaking of the same thing we found in Daniel? Jesus is quoting Daniel! And Jesus is answering a question about the end of the age. This end of the age is still ahead of us today. Now let's examine this event: the conclusion from all the scriptures in Daniel is that an EVENT: the placing of an abomination in the temple, will cause the daily sacrifices to stop. And this event will be what divides the week.
Question: how in the world can an event in our future divide a week, if we don't have an entire week to divide? It would be impossible. There MUST BE an entire week in our future that can be divided into two equal halves. The scriptures prove it is an abomination that will divided the week and stop the daily sacrifices. Jesus Himself put this abomination into our future (the end of the age). Therefore, if it is the abomination that divided the week, THERE MUST BE A WEEK TO DIVIDE at the same time.
Then there is another point: the HE that confirms a covenant is the same HE that will break this covenant.
Question: can anyone imagine that Jesus Christ would break a covenant after 3 1/2 years? Does GOD break covenants?
It seems the scriptural evidence is overwhelming that sometime in our future, someone will enter the temple or place in the temple an abomination, and this will stop the sacrifices and will divide the week. Paul tells us that the man of sin will accomplish this.