Saturday or Sunday?

[ayin jade]

4 hours ago, missmuffet said:

But they do not know a different Jesus Christ like the JW's or Mormons.

I have talked to some sda's who believe Jesus is michael the archangel. I thought it was just jw's who believe that but apparently some sda churches teach that as well.

[missmuffet]

31 minutes ago, ayin jade said:

I have talked to some sda's who believe Jesus is michael the archangel. I thought it was just jw's who believe that but apparently some sda churches teach that as well.

You are right.But some do and some do not.  Here are some of the concerns of the SDA Church

1. Ellen G. White is their prophetess.

2. They say that Satan is a scapegoat and will bear believers sins.

3. They identify Jesus as Michael the archangel.

4. They believe in soul sleep

While there is a wide range in what SDA believe among the Church.  I would highly advise not to get involved with the SDA Church.

[ayin jade]

3 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

You are right.But some do and some do not.  Here are some of the concerns of the SDA Church

2. They say that Satan is a scapegoat and will bear believers sins.

Wow I didnt know this one. That is so against scripture. 

[missmuffet]

5 minutes ago, ayin jade said:

Wow I didnt know this one. That is so against scripture. 

No kidding. I would say with the 4 concerns I have posted I would consider them a cult. A cult is defined as denial of one or more fundamental truths of Christianity.

[brakelite]

23 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I don't need to defend anything.  The early church met every day of the week, not just on Saturday.   The sabbath day was only ever given to Israel, never to the Church (and the SDA is not part of the Church or the Kingdom of God.)   The SDA uses the Sabbath as a litmus test for salvation and that is what makes the SDA doctrine the invention of Satan.

After agreeing with everyone that all doctrine must be substantiated with scripture all of a sudden when asked the foundation of a central doctrine of the majority of churches: a doctrine upheld even by civil legislature, you say you don't need to defend it? Seriously??

As for the Sabbath being only for Israel, if you are not part of Israel you are not Christian.

As for the SDA not being part of the kingdom of God, could you be a little more clear on that please? Do you mean the SDA church as an organisation, or are you referring to individual SDAs ....namely me?

Finally, as for Sabbath observance being a litmus test for salvation, I am not sure what you are claiming here. Are you 

A. Saying that no-one, according to the SDA church will get to heaven except they observe the Sabbath?

B. That by observing the Sabbath one earns his/her salvation? Or

C. Both of the above,or something else?

The reason I ask is because the average Christian while claiming great knowledge and insight on most matters are in fact woefully ignorant when it comes to what the SDA church actually teaches. Particularly so when the come charging out with such injudicious and uneducated accusations which include words such as 'cult' and 'heretic'. An example is the quote above which uses the words 'litmus test', as if no Sabbath observance, no salvation, which such dogmatic declaration my church does NOT teach. 

For example, even atheists may be in heaven ahead of many professing Christians. Think about that.

 

[brakelite]

23 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

That is not true.  It is cults like the SDA that promote the Sabbath as part of a works-based system of righteousness that leads many to Hell.

And it is statements like that that reveal the complete ignorance, perhaps wilful, of so many who claim wisdom on most everything else. 

[Guest shiloh357]

21 minutes ago, brakelite said:

After agreeing with everyone that all doctrine must be substantiated with scripture all of a sudden when asked the foundation of a central doctrine of the majority of churches: a doctrine upheld even by civil legislature, you say you don't need to defend it? Seriously??

Sunday observance is a tradition, not a doctrine.   And no I don't need to defend it.

Quote

As for the Sabbath being only for Israel, if you are not part of Israel you are not Christian.

Wrong.   The Bible does not equate Christians with Israel.   Israel is never spiritualized to refer to Christians in the New Testaments.   But the SDA is neither "Israel" nor are they Christians.  They are a cult of unregenerate, hell-bound sinners who are trusting in works, not Jesus for salvation.

Quote

As for the SDA not being part of the kingdom of God, could you be a little more clear on that please? Do you mean the SDA church as an organisation, or are you referring to individual SDAs ....namely me?

Both.  Neither the organization or SDA adherents are part of the Kingdom of God.  They have no part in Christ or His Kingdom.

Quote

 

Finally, as for Sabbath observance being a litmus test for salvation, I am not sure what you are claiming here. Are you 

A. Saying that no-one, according to the SDA church will get to heaven except they observe the Sabbath?

B. That by observing the Sabbath one earns his/her salvation? Or

C. Both of the above,or something else?

 

All of the above. Furthermore, they have other observances that they hold are necessary for salvation, namely the keeping of all 10 commandments and keeping the dietary laws.

Quote

The reason I ask is because the average Christian while claiming great knowledge and insight on most matters are in fact woefully ignorant when it comes to what the SDA church actually teaches. Particularly so when the come charging out with such injudicious and uneducated accusations which include words such as 'cult' and 'heretic'. An example is the quote above which uses the words 'litmus test', as if no Sabbath observance, no salvation, which such dogmatic declaration my church does NOT teach. 

What I have learned over the years in dealing with cults is that they have a public face and a private face.   The Mormons,for instance,  publicly deny that they teach that Satan and Jesus are brothers.  But they DO teach it.  They have doctrines that are only for private consumption.   Cults always operate that way.   They know how their core doctrines appear to the public, so they put up smokescreens so that the general public is unaware of what they truly teach.

Quote

For example, even atheists may be in heaven ahead of many professing Christians. Think about that.

Which only confirms my point about false doctrine.  Anyone who thinks that atheists will be in heaven is clearly operating from a flawed doctrinal position.

Quote

And it is statements like that that reveal the complete ignorance, perhaps wilful, of so many who claim wisdom on most everything else. 

No, I simply understand the core doctrines of the SDA.  There might be some minor variance between congregations, but most of the core doctrines are the same.

[Guest shiloh357]

9 hours ago, brakelite said:

People are.judged in accordance to how they respond to what light they have received, for without the law is no knowledge of sin.

That doesn't answer the question.  

In SDA theology, the Sabbbath is the identifying mark of God's true people (as opposed to Christians who do not keep the Sabbath.   The SDA wrongly believes that they are Israel and since the Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel, the Sabbath identifies them as the true people of God.

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

Is the Sabbath Binding on Christians Today? by John MacArthur

It is believed that the Old Testament regulations governing Sabbath observances are ceremonial, not moral, aspects of the law. As such, they are no longer in force, but have passed away along with the sacrificial system, the Levitical priesthood, and all other aspects of Moses' law that prefigured Christ. Here are the reasons we hold this view. In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul explicitly refers to the Sabbath as a shadow of Christ, which is no longer binding since the substance (Christ) has come. It is quite clear in those verses that the weekly Sabbath is in view. The phrase "a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day" refers to the annual, monthly, and weekly holy days of the Jewish calendar (cf. 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4, 31:3; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11). If Paul were referring to special ceremonial dates of rest in that passage, why would he have used the word "Sabbath?" He had already mentioned the ceremonial dates when he spoke of festivals and new moons.   The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.   The New Testament never commands Christians to observe the Sabbath.   In our only glimpse of an early church worship service in the New Testament, the church met on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).   Nowhere in the Old Testament are the Gentile nations commanded to observe the Sabbath or condemned for failing to do so. That is certainly strange if Sabbath observance were meant to be an eternal moral principle.   There is no evidence in the Bible of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the time of Moses, nor are there any commands in the Bible to keep the Sabbath before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.   When the Apostles met at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), they did not impose Sabbath keeping on the Gentile believers.   The apostle Paul warned the Gentiles about many different sins in his epistles, but breaking the Sabbath was never one of them.   In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath).   In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers).   The early church fathers, from Ignatius to Augustine, taught that the Old Testament Sabbath had been abolished and that the first day of the week (Sunday) was the day when Christians should meet for worship (contrary to the claim of many seventh-day Sabbatarians who claim that Sunday worship was not instituted until the fourth century).   Sunday has not replaced Saturday as the Sabbath. Rather the Lord's Day is a time when believers gather to commemorate His resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week. Every day to the believer is one of Sabbath rest, since we have ceased from our spiritual labor and are resting in the salvation of the Lord (Hebrews 4:9-11).   So while we still follow the pattern of designating one day of the week a day for the Lord's people to gather in worship, we do not refer to this as "the Sabbath." John Calvin took a similar position. He wrote, There were three reasons for giving this [fourth] commandment: First, with the seventh day of rest the Lord wished to give to the people of Israel an image of spiritual rest, whereby believers must cease from their own works in order to let the Lord work in them. Secondly, he wished that there be an established day in which believers might assemble in order to hear his Law and worship him. Thirdly, he willed that one day of rest be granted to servants and to those who live under the power of others so that they might have a relaxation from their labor. The latter, however, is rather an inferred than a principal reason. As to the first reason, there is no doubt that it ceased in Christ; because he is the truth by the presence of which all images vanish. He is the reality at whose advent all shadows are abandoned. Hence St. Paul (Colossians 2:17) affirms that the Sabbath has been a shadow of a reality yet to be. And he declares else-where its truth when in the letter to the Romans, chapter 6:8, he teaches us that we are buried with Christ in order that by his death we may die to the corruption of our flesh. And this is not done in one day, but during all the course of our life, until altogether dead in our own selves, we may be filled with the life of God. Hence, superstitious observance of days must remain far from Christians. The two last reasons, however, must not be numbered among the shadows of old. Rather, they are equally valid for all ages. Hence, though the Sabbath is abrogated, it so happens among us that we still convene on certain days in order to hear the word of God, to break the [mystic] bread of the Supper, and to offer public prayers; and, moreover, in order that some relaxation from their toil be given to servants and workingmen. As our human weakness does not allow such assemblies to meet every day, the day observed by the Jews has been taken away (as a good device for eliminating superstition) and another day has been destined to this use. This was necessary for securing and maintaining order and peace in the Church. As the truth therefore was given to the Jews under a figure, so to us on the contrary truth is shown without shadows in order, first of all, that we meditate all our life on a perpetual Sabbath from our works so that the Lord may operate in us by his spirit; secondly, in order that we observe the legitimate order of the Church for listening to the word of God, for administering the sacraments, and for public prayers; thirdly, in order that we do not oppress inhumanly with work those who are subject to us. [From Instruction in Faith, Calvin's own 1537 digest of the Institutes of the Christian Religion, sec. 8, "The Law of the Lord"]. For further study: D.A. Carson, ed., From Sabbath to Lord's Day (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1982). https://www.gospeloutreach.net/sabbath.html

[Pudgenik]

3 hours ago, brakelite said:

After agreeing with everyone that all doctrine must be substantiated with scripture all of a sudden when asked the foundation of a central doctrine of the majority of churches: a doctrine upheld even by civil legislature, you say you don't need to defend it? Seriously??

As for the Sabbath being only for Israel, if you are not part of Israel you are not Christian.

As for the SDA not being part of the kingdom of God, could you be a little more clear on that please? Do you mean the SDA church as an organisation, or are you referring to individual SDAs ....namely me?

Finally, as for Sabbath observance being a litmus test for salvation, I am not sure what you are claiming here. Are you 

A. Saying that no-one, according to the SDA church will get to heaven except they observe the Sabbath?

B. That by observing the Sabbath one earns his/her salvation? Or

C. Both of the above,or something else?

The reason I ask is because the average Christian while claiming great knowledge and insight on most matters are in fact woefully ignorant when it comes to what the SDA church actually teaches. Particularly so when the come charging out with such injudicious and uneducated accusations which include words such as 'cult' and 'heretic'. An example is the quote above which uses the words 'litmus test', as if no Sabbath observance, no salvation, which such dogmatic declaration my church does NOT teach. 

For example, even atheists may be in heaven ahead of many professing Christians. Think about that.

 

There are Christians that don't know they are christians