" Founded A Christian Nation "

[Dennis1209]

I'm not going into a diatribe, but if you look at the non-native settlers, the Puritans and Pilgrims; even Christopher Columbus himself in his own journals and handwriting... 

We adopted much of 'English' law as our own law and modified it. Both appear to be biblical based on the God of the Bible. If you look at the Federalist Papers and the Constitution itself, you can't help but to see the God of the universe all over the documentation. 

So yes, we were founded as a Christian nation. Our founders didn't set up Baal alters under every green tree on a hill, nor make their children pass through the fire. The overwhelming majority were not atheist's either, if not Christian, most at least had 'the fear of God'.

Just my 2.5 cents worf...

[other one]

11 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I'm not going into a diatribe, but if you look at the non-native settlers, the Puritans and Pilgrims; even Christopher Columbus himself in his own journals and handwriting... 

We adopted much of 'English' law as our own law and modified it. Both appear to be biblical based on the God of the Bible. If you look at the Federalist Papers and the Constitution itself, you can't help but to see the God of the universe all over the documentation. 

So yes, we were founded as a Christian nation. Our founders didn't set up Baal alters under every green tree on a hill, nor make their children pass through the fire. The overwhelming majority were not atheist's either, if not Christian, most at least had 'the fear of God'.

Just my 2.5 cents worf...

you need to study much more about freemasons, and look how Washington DC was laid out.  We may not have a lot of Baal alters under the trees, but we have paganism everywhere....   even the dome of the capitol is pagan.    

I do agree that the Citizens of the Nation were basically Christian and that is what made our country great....   but it was/is  "We the People" that is greatness and not the Government.

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, other one said:

you need to study much more about freemasons, and look how Washington DC was laid out.  We may not have a lot of Baal alters under the trees, but we have paganism everywhere....   even the dome of the capitol is pagan.    

I do agree that the Citizens of the Nation were basically Christian and that is what made our country great....   but it was/is  "We the People" that is greatness and not the Government.

Oh yea no doubt about it, you can see the Freemasons everywhere from the D.C. layout to the dollar bill. Even George Washington was a Freemason. I was stressing the people who arrived well before 1776 and our 'official' founding, that did not bring Freemasonry with them. So nothing to see here citizen... Next? 

[JohnD]

America was founded as a nation of Christians.

A nation whose laws are based in Christian principles creating the conditions through which its citizens could live free with liberty and justice for all.

Those basic principles are love the Lord thy God with all thy all and thy neighbor as thyself. 

Anything less and the same founding fathers who forged American liberty called for the end of liberty on a selfish and godless people. They wrote it would be better to remain under the rule of the British crown than wage such anarchy. Wall Builders Ministry... a really good read on what the founding fathers actually wrote.

But America would have had to require its citizens to be Christians in order to be a Christian nation.  

[Unfailing Presence]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

America was founded as a nation of Christians.

A nation whose laws are based in Christian principles creating the conditions through which its citizens could live free with liberty and justice for all.

Those basic principles are love the Lord thy God with all thy all and thy neighbor as thyself. 

Anything less and the same founding fathers who forged American liberty called for the end of liberty on a selfish and godless people. They wrote it would be better to remain under the rule of the British crown than wage such anarchy. Wall Builders Ministry... a really good read on what the founding fathers actually wrote.

But America would have had to require its citizens to be Christians in order to be a Christian nation.  

And the founding was what I originally referred to JohnD.

I don't think any Christian can say this country has been doing anything but coasting downhill on it's way out for quite sometime  .

The details of it's founding are what  holds great interest for me .

Such as the fact that each day of the constitutional convention was begun with a prayer to Jesus Christ . 

That fact alone does not mean that even among that relatively small group everyone present was a " Christian " .

In fact we know that there were those present who were not professing Christians , none the less each day of the writing of our founding documents was begun in prayer to Jesus Christ . 

Was the founding of any other nation begun in such dedication to Jesus Christ was all I was asking ? 

I know of no other and I do not see anyone else naming one either . 

I do not consider this to be good news for America today by the way because I believe the biblical principle of  " unto whom much is given , much is required "  applies to nations 

as well as individuals .

[Unfailing Presence]

14 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, I don't know that there is all that much  in the way of evidence of the USA being founded as a Christian nation, but accepting  it as fact for the sake of the thread's premise, may I suggest looking at  the nation Israel? If one wants to see a nation to be founded on Christianity, it is Israel that as a nation reveals God's sovereignty over all things, and births Christianity.

It is the nation Israel and it's warrior people that sustains knowledge of God in mankind. The very headstrong  and stiff necked people that God loves and calls His own will yet unfold as Christians at the home of our Lord Jesus. He will sit and rule from there for  the great time of reveal of Him yet to come. It is there that He will rule over all of earth. Jesus  died for His sheep as the Good shepherd at Israel. Our Lord's blood was spilled there. It is there that Christianity is still being birthed to fullness to come.

So is there any land like Israel when it comes to revealing Jesus, and is there any land other than Israel where God will rest His feet? I think I will have to say; no the USA is not the Christian land, Israel is. It is not America that will be the hub of things to come, It is Israel, always has been and always will be.

I think the judgement God placed on Israel for their rejection of Christianity , in the form of Jesus Christ is a very good insight to what is in store for our nation or any nation that 

God has seen fit to prosper .

An excellent example of God's principle    , " unto whom much is given , much is required " ,  being applicable not just to individuals , but also unto nations .

Thank you for that input Neighbor .

[Neighbor]

11 minutes ago, Unfailing Presence said:

I think the judgement God placed on Israel for their rejection of Christianity , in the form of Jesus Christ is a very good insight to what is in store for our nation or any nation that 

God has seen fit to prosper .

An excellent example of God's principle    , " unto whom much is given , much is required " ,  being applicable not just to individuals , but also unto nations .

Thank you for that input Neighbor .

Well yes and thank you; but in further clarification may I also share that  I see the nation Israel is to come to Jesus in numbers incredible in scope. For  there will be 144,000 of the most positive influences on a people that has ever been in history. Israel will come to know it's Messiah! Maranatha! Pray for the peace of Israel.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Neighbor

[JohnD]

14 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

And the founding was what I originally referred to JohnD.

I don't think any Christian can say this country has been doing anything but coasting downhill on it's way out for quite sometime  .

The details of it's founding are what  holds great interest for me .

Such as the fact that each day of the constitutional convention was begun with a prayer to Jesus Christ . 

That fact alone does not mean that even among that relatively small group everyone present was a " Christian " .

In fact we know that there were those present who were not professing Christians , none the less each day of the writing of our founding documents was begun in prayer to Jesus Christ . 

Was the founding of any other nation begun in such dedication to Jesus Christ was all I was asking ? 

I know of no other and I do not see anyone else naming one either . 

I do not consider this to be good news for America today by the way because I believe the biblical principle of  " unto whom much is given , much is required "  applies to nations 

as well as individuals .

Wall Builders. If you haven't been there you will love it!!!

[JohnD]

Interesting to note how Freemasonry was a part of the early American formation.

Part of my recent hobby horse (the Church Organization versus the Church Organism).

Flaws, contradictions, division, and compromise are all attributed to the traditions of men disguised as the Church Organization.

 

[simplejeff]

On 12/1/2017 at 5:03 AM, justadisciple said:

I'm disappointed by your attitude, shiloh357, but your reaction does not surprise me, given that this topic is a very sensitive one and I am guessing you have a lot invested in it (ie. you probably own guns and have held this position openly for years, so being willing to soften on it could be extremely difficult for you now).

Nevertheless, I do think it is important to look carefully at the flaws in your arguments, just so others are not intimidated by your forceful approach.  It is clear that you are not open to considering any Scripture anyone else can present you, as you dismiss every single one with one technicality or another.

However, by the very nature of your arguments, you have admitted that you do not have any real Scripture to support it. Your position is not based on something the Scriptures actually say, but on a faulty conclusion.

Here is your argument in a nutshell:

1. The Bible says we should provide for our family.  
2. That must include providing protection.  
3. Therefore it is lawful for Christians to take up arms and use violent and deadly force if necessary to protect ourselves and our family.

That's about as close as you have gotten to an argument based on New Testament Scripture.

The problem, apart from being mostly based on nothing more than your own reasoning, is that the conclusion in point 3 does not actually follow. There is nothing in the New Testament that justifies you taking up arms and being willing to kill others "in self defense".  It is a position based on silence... but the conclusion is in stark contrast to everything else the New Testament says on the topic of violence.

On the other hand, I am basing my position on what the New Testament Scriptures actually say on the topic of violence, and so it is a position consistent with Jesus' teachings and the New Testament. It naturally and logically follows that if the New Testament Scriptures consistently call us to a non-violent approach, that a non-violent approach to any situation not specifically covered by Scripture is more in harmony with the New Testament than a violent one.  You cannot escape that logical conclusion.

Therefore, if there is to be an EXCEPTION to the spirit of the New Testament, it must, of necessity, be clearly stated in New Testament Scripture itself.  

However, you maintain that any Scriptures that talk against violence are doing so in the context of persecution and not self-defense, and therefore do not apply to defending ourselves nor to going to war, and practically to any other situation that worldly people would normally resort to violence for.

But there are several problems there with your reasoning:

First of all, Jesus did teach against violence in self defense. 

He said: 

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:38-40)

There is no mention of persecution there.  In fact, Jesus gives a clear example of self defense and he tells us to not resist evil, but to allow people to hit us, and not only that... allow them to hit us AGAIN! 

Secondly, your approach would be virtually impossible to practice, because you would have to determine beforehand the motivations of the person coming to attack you. So, someone comes in to kill you and your family, but you do not know if they are persecuting you for your faith or if they are just a theif coming to steal.  How do you decide when to kill them "in self defense" and when to "turn the other cheek" in response to persecution.  

For example you defend the right of churches to have armed personnel, ready to shoot and kill anyone that would do them harm... but what if the people doing them harm are persecuting them for their faith?  How would they even know?

Having said that, I do not believe you are being honest about claiming that Jesus' teachings on non violence apply to times when we are persecuted for our faith.  I believe you would feel justified in using carnal weapons even in times of persecution.  Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that, but everything you have said so far would indicate that you do not believe in turning the other cheek, loving your enemies, losing your life for the Gospel except in trivial ways like "not gossipping back in the work place".  When it comes to real life persecution and violence, your approach is "it is nonsense to allow others to kill you and your family, therefore it is okay to use carnal weapons to defend ourselves".

You dismissed my analogy of selling cocaine on the grounds that that activity is illegal, whereas owning guns (in America) is legal.  That doesn't make sense.  What about selling Marijuana?  It is legal in some places.  Is that okay then?  No wonder you have so much confusion on this issue!  You think right and wrong is determined by men's laws!

Now, I am not a pacifist, at least not in the strictest sense of the word.  I do believe that a certain amount of restraining force is a valid option as a response to violent people. And I do not condemn you or other people in the world for wanting to protect yourself and your family, even though I think it is an approach based on fear rather than faith.  

But my approach is to take Jesus' word and example seriously.  He is the example of our faith.  He calls on us to follow him, to suffer as he did by taking up our own cross and laying down our lives in humble service to God.  And nowhere does he nor the rest of the New Testament justify us in taking up carnal weapons and be willing to kill others in the name of self defense.  That is just a carnal approach to trying to save our fleshly lives, instead of seeing the real spiritual warefare that happens between good and evil.

For someone who claims to believe to be in possession of eternal life... why are you so invested in saving your earthly one at all costs?

Peacemaker