Some encouraging Scriptures about the rapture

[Diaste]

On 7/20/2019 at 5:17 AM, iamlamad said:

I expect that anyone on these threads would know the content of Rev. 4 & 5. We have been discussing these two chapters for weeks! Perhaps you should read them again.

Chapter 4: Jesus NOT seen at the right hand of the Father (as if He is not there at all).

The Holy Spirit still there (as If He had not yet been sent down).

Chapter 5:  NO man found worthy in a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals (as if He had not yet risen from the dead)

Then a CHANGE!  (Time moved on) Jesus was now found worthy. (There is TIME PASSING between Him NOT found and Him found.  What happened? Jesus had just risen from the dead.

Then, MORE TIME PASSES: and suddenly Jesus appears in the throne room where He had not been. Why? He just ascended and then sent the Holy Spirit down.

 

You have a choice: you can IMAGINE some reason why John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the Father. I know the real reason.

You can imagine why God chose to show John the Holy Spirit in the throne room at the very time Jesus was not there. I know the reason.

You can imagine there was no real search, when in reality there was.

You can imagine no time passing between Him NOT found and Him found.

In fact, you can imagine there was no search so no one "found."

You are right in one way: it IS a story God shows us. Most people miss it.

I'm not asking about content. I'm pointing out that you are adamant about a moment where you say there is non-existence. That cannot be proven. I once told an atheist, "Proving a negative is notoriously difficult." The arguments he was using melted away. But I was wrong about what I said, proving a negative is impossible. No one can prove something doesn't exist as there is no evidence for nonexistence.

You however are not deflected in the slightest, merrily skipping along the road of self indulgent conviction, in the fantasy of evidence of nonexistence. You say the text doesn't explicitly say Jesus was there, therefore he was not there. That's a logical fallacy called argument from ignorance which is assuming something to be true because it cannot be proven false. The text you cite continuosly is not specific as to Jesus whereabouts, present or not; the text makes no claims it just fits your story that he was not there. 

There is however a good deal of scripture of proof refutes your story.

" But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”" - Acts 7

"For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us." -Romans 8

"the working of His mighty strength, which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms," -Eph 1

"strive for the things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God." - Col 3

"After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" - Hebrews 1

"through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to Him." - 1 Peter 3

It would appear that Jesus is at the right hand of God when the NT letters were being written well before 95 AD. Including proof that Jesus was seen in heaven by Stephen circa 34-36 AD.  But that won't be enough for you and your time warp/wormhole theory of eschatology. Lets check Revelation.

"Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was One like the Son of Man,e dressed in a long robe, with a golden sash around His chest. The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters. He held in His right hand seven stars, and a sharp double-edged sword came from His mouth. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest." - Rev 1

Here He is. Exalted. In heaven; about to give John the vision of revelation. Worse for your story:

"“Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades."

Oops. WAS dead.  Now ALIVE forever. But you would have us believe in the ensuing chapters that the one giving the vision is not only absent, but dead. But even worse for your story scripture not only unequivocally states Jesus is alive and at the right hand of God, but Jesus is the one giving the entire revelation to John:

"This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Now you tell me how Jesus is going to show John a vision when, as you contend, in chapters 4-5 Jesus is absent and/or dead? Not only is Jesus obviously present but He is directing the entire production!! All of it, including the symbolism and reality of the Throne of God and the throne room.

Rev 4:1, "“Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.”"  Come up where? To the moon? Mars? Well, heaven obviously, "At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne standing in heaven," - Rev 4:2 

Maybe John never left the physical location of the Isle of Patmos, maybe he did, assuredly Jesus is the one imparting the vision as confirmed by Rev 4:1. The words of Jesus tell John to come to heaven to see the rest of the revelation. That means to this point Jesus is in heaven, John arrives and Jesus shows John the Throne, God and the throne room.

You made this statement, "Chapter 5:  NO man found worthy in a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals (as if He had not yet risen from the dead)" and further implicated yourself with this:

"Then a CHANGE!  (Time moved on) Jesus was now found worthy. (There is TIME PASSING between Him NOT found and Him found.  What happened? Jesus had just risen from the dead."

Your contention is that no living person could be found in heaven or earth who was worthy. Jesus was in neither place according to you because at this point He is dead and in the grave. I suppose you think that if they had looked under the earth, in the grave, they would have found the worthy person since you believe that's where Jesus was at the moment of Rev 5:4, "...no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it." However, "no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it."  So no person was found in heaven or on earth or under the earth, which means the one and only search was conducted thoroughly and completely. Which would mean the worthy soul was standing right there in heaven, exalted and showing John His revelation as given to Him by the Almighty. 

In conclusion...

If you are incorrect about this, are you correct about the rest of your story?

[Diaste]

On 7/20/2019 at 6:45 AM, iamlamad said:

"Truth" is always supported by scripture. We will be in heaven when the 70th week begins, and then you will find that beginning will be marked by the 7th seal.  There is a strange phenomenon where scripture is concerned: imagine someone in a healing line, to get prayed for, after the doctor had giving him or her 6 months to live: the preacher tells them, "Don't you know that Jesus stripes are for your healing?"  They answer back, "well, I believe that is only spiritual healing." Yet, here they are in a healing line, with HOPE and no faith in any healing scripture.

Yes. But the call to faith for healing and provision was backed up by centuries of evidence. Check the wanderings of the Exodus for proof.

But I'm not sure you're making sense. 

On 7/20/2019 at 6:45 AM, iamlamad said:

IS there a basis for physical healing by His stripes? Of course there is. But one must BELIEVE the scripture to receive any benefit from it.

Likening a personal conviction such as faith where people are at all levels of faith in things like healing, or meat sacrificed to idols, etc., is not equivalent to the fulfillment of prophecy.

On 7/20/2019 at 6:45 AM, iamlamad said:

Another example: the scripture is very clear that God allowed seals 2 through 4 authority to operate over 1/4 of the earth; yet people read it as if 1/4 of the earth is killed!

Again, that has no bearing on the plan of God nor the fulfillment of the words of the prophecy. However the prophetic utterance comes to pass specifically according to the words spoken there will be no alteration because a person or group either believed or did not believe a particular nuance. 

On 7/20/2019 at 6:45 AM, iamlamad said:

It is not difficult to see that the 70th week ends with the 7th vial. It is not difficult to see that the midpoint is marked with the 7th trumpet.  Is it then difficult to imagine that God has marked the entire 70th week with 7's?  Jesus words to me:  "...you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'"

One needs special revelation to know the outline of Revelation? Or to know there is an outline or order? There are three groups of 7 and all three sets are opened in order. One only needs to read with the barest comprehension to see this, no special revelation required.

On 7/20/2019 at 6:45 AM, iamlamad said:

HOW can we find the entire week "clearly marked?"  Simple: God used the same marker for the start, midpoint and end.

Yeah...no. 

[Jostler]

On 7/10/2019 at 9:29 AM, Montana Marv said:

....  The only way not to be tested in that time of testing, is not to be there.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I think there is a very fundamental flaw in  that assumption.  It denies even consideration of the fact He has the power to protect His from ANY "testing" though it touch  those on all sides of us.  He has a confirmed history of delivering His  THROUGH the fire, not from it. 

 

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, Jostler said:

I think there is a very fundamental flaw in  that assumption.  It denies even consideration of the fact He has the power to protect His from ANY "testing" though it touch  those on all sides of us.  He has a confirmed history of delivering His  THROUGH the fire, not from it. 

 

All on the earth get the testing.  Not some on the earth. ALL

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes. But the call to faith for healing and provision was backed up by centuries of evidence. Check the wanderings of the Exodus for proof.

But I'm not sure you're making sense. 

Likening a personal conviction such as faith where people are at all levels of faith in things like healing, or meat sacrificed to idols, etc., is not equivalent to the fulfillment of prophecy.

Again, that has no bearing on the plan of God nor the fulfillment of the words of the prophecy. However the prophetic utterance comes to pass specifically according to the words spoken there will be no alteration because a person or group either believed or did not believe a particular nuance. 

One needs special revelation to know the outline of Revelation? Or to know there is an outline or order? There are three groups of 7 and all three sets are opened in order. One only needs to read with the barest comprehension to see this, no special revelation required.

Yeah...no. 

Because we read scripture differently (have a different understanding of what the intent of the Author is) we are just not going to agree on much when it comes to end times.

Of course I was making sense: there is ample scriptural proof that the stripes on Jesus back are for our physical healing; yet some simply don't or won't believe that. They read the same scriptures, but preconceptions block what the scripture is really saying. They will say that His stripes were for SPIRITUAL healing only. It is exactly the same thing with the 1/4th of the earth. Words don't lie; words have meaning. But preconceptions BLOCK the real meaning in many cases. The intent of the author is that the three riders are limited to 1/4th of the earth where they are allowed to operate. It does not say that 1/4th of the people are killed. Yet, many people read it that way. We all must learn to read without preconceived glasses on.

Apparently it is so: one does need special revelation: over the years I have found many people that insist they must rearrange Revelation to fit the real order of things!  Some even insist on rearranged events John numbered!

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm not asking about content. I'm pointing out that you are adamant about a moment where you say there is non-existence. That cannot be proven. I once told an atheist, "Proving a negative is notoriously difficult." The arguments he was using melted away. But I was wrong about what I said, proving a negative is impossible. No one can prove something doesn't exist as there is no evidence for nonexistence.

You however are not deflected in the slightest, merrily skipping along the road of self indulgent conviction, in the fantasy of evidence of nonexistence. You say the text doesn't explicitly say Jesus was there, therefore he was not there. That's a logical fallacy called argument from ignorance which is assuming something to be true because it cannot be proven false. The text you cite continuosly is not specific as to Jesus whereabouts, present or not; the text makes no claims it just fits your story that he was not there. 

There is however a good deal of scripture of proof refutes your story.

" But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”" - Acts 7

"For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us." -Romans 8

"the working of His mighty strength, which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms," -Eph 1

"strive for the things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God." - Col 3

"After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" - Hebrews 1

"through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to Him." - 1 Peter 3

It would appear that Jesus is at the right hand of God when the NT letters were being written well before 95 AD. Including proof that Jesus was seen in heaven by Stephen circa 34-36 AD.  But that won't be enough for you and your time warp/wormhole theory of eschatology. Lets check Revelation.

"Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was One like the Son of Man,e dressed in a long robe, with a golden sash around His chest. The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters. He held in His right hand seven stars, and a sharp double-edged sword came from His mouth. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest." - Rev 1

Here He is. Exalted. In heaven; about to give John the vision of revelation. Worse for your story:

"“Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades."

Oops. WAS dead.  Now ALIVE forever. But you would have us believe in the ensuing chapters that the one giving the vision is not only absent, but dead. But even worse for your story scripture not only unequivocally states Jesus is alive and at the right hand of God, but Jesus is the one giving the entire revelation to John:

"This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Now you tell me how Jesus is going to show John a vision when, as you contend, in chapters 4-5 Jesus is absent and/or dead? Not only is Jesus obviously present but He is directing the entire production!! All of it, including the symbolism and reality of the Throne of God and the throne room.

Rev 4:1, "“Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.”"  Come up where? To the moon? Mars? Well, heaven obviously, "At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne standing in heaven," - Rev 4:2 

Maybe John never left the physical location of the Isle of Patmos, maybe he did, assuredly Jesus is the one imparting the vision as confirmed by Rev 4:1. The words of Jesus tell John to come to heaven to see the rest of the revelation. That means to this point Jesus is in heaven, John arrives and Jesus shows John the Throne, God and the throne room.

You made this statement, "Chapter 5:  NO man found worthy in a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals (as if He had not yet risen from the dead)" and further implicated yourself with this:

"Then a CHANGE!  (Time moved on) Jesus was now found worthy. (There is TIME PASSING between Him NOT found and Him found.  What happened? Jesus had just risen from the dead."

Your contention is that no living person could be found in heaven or earth who was worthy. Jesus was in neither place according to you because at this point He is dead and in the grave. I suppose you think that if they had looked under the earth, in the grave, they would have found the worthy person since you believe that's where Jesus was at the moment of Rev 5:4, "...no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it." However, "no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it."  So no person was found in heaven or on earth or under the earth, which means the one and only search was conducted thoroughly and completely. Which would mean the worthy soul was standing right there in heaven, exalted and showing John His revelation as given to Him by the Almighty. 

In conclusion...

If you are incorrect about this, are you correct about the rest of your story?

You STILL don't understand? Until Jesus rose from the dead, He was NOT worthy to take the book and open the seals. It was only after He rose from the dead and became the redeemer of the world that He BECAME worthy:

Rev. 5:5...the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. He prevailed over what? John tells us: 9...Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Redemption was not complete until He rose from the dead, overcoming or prevailing over DEATH and HELL. What you are missing: God chose every word in the bible very carefully. Here in Revelation 4 & 5 it is so also: every word was chosen to draw us a picture. John is certainly NOT showing us a time where Jesus did not exist! How could God NOT EXIST? No, that is not at all God's intention here. He is showing us TIMING. Read again the question Jesus asked me:  “I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. The first question then, why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four?” As I said, every word in Revelation was chosen carefully be Jesus to portray TRUTH. Notice carefully that it was HIS INTENTION that John did not see Him at the right hand of the Father. You need to answer the question: WHY would this be God's intention? Why they would Jesus CHOOSE to show a search that ended up in failure? His purpose is very simple: He wanted to introduce John to the book, sealed with 7 seals. He CHOSE to begin this introduction while the book was still in the hand of the Father: but now He had a problem: it was 95 AD. God had to somehow show John and the readers that this was a vision of the past. How could He do that? He could (and did) show a search that ended in failure. He could, and did, show a later search where Jesus WAS found. In this way He was showing us the passing of time. Then He chose to show John and then us, the readers, the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.  Remember, preconceived glasses often block the truth of scripture; the intent of the Author.

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad,

Scripture doesn't actually state that it is "power over an area".

There are 1.6 (+-) billion Muslims in the world. That's approximately 1/4 of the population. They are spread across the globe, virtually in every country. If the call for jihad goes out, perhaps from Mahdi, and  Muslim's responds to that call, then we would see global mayhem on a scale never seen before.

"Authority was given them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth".....Rev 6: 8b

I'm not convinced that it is a "land mass". Perhaps we should look at this another way.

Look up this verse in Bible Gateway. Click the link for this verse in every available English version. Read them all. It goes about 99% that it is over 1/4 of the land mass.

Compare it with the 6th trumpet, where 1/3 of the population really is killed. Notice how different it is worded there.

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

These get power over 1/4th of the Earth,  no power over the other 3/4ths, can't touch them.  What do they do; they kill them by these methods.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Did you ever notice how similar these methods are to what Ezekiel wrote?

Ezekiel 6:11  Thus saith the Lord God; Smite with thine hand, and stamp with thy foot, and say, Alas for all the evil abominations of the house of Israel! for they shall fall by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence.  This is the very purpose of these three riders.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Jostler said:

I think there is a very fundamental flaw in  that assumption.  It denies even consideration of the fact He has the power to protect His from ANY "testing" though it touch  those on all sides of us.  He has a confirmed history of delivering His  THROUGH the fire, not from it. 

 

You are forgetting God's purpose for this TIME - the 70th week:  God has said twice that the Antichrist Beast will have power over the saints. It is a very special time. All through history there have been "fence sitters:" people who refuse to "get involved" or take sides. God is going to force everyone off the fence and force all of humanity to choose a side.

However, that being said, for the Jews that flee and for some that remain in Jerusalem, God WILL bring them THROUGH: He needs people that love Him in natural bodies to repopulate the earth.

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

 

Rev 6:8c - 4th Seal - They were given power over 1/4th of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild animals of the earth.

Rev 9:18 - 6th Trumpet - A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur.....

As an example we see of a 6 Billion Population that 1.5 Billion are killed in the 4th Seal leaving 4.5 Billion.  The we see another 1.5 Billion dying (1/3 of remaining population) leaving 3 Billion people.  Most of these(maybe another 1.5 Billion???) will die at Armageddon, leaving the remainder to go into the Mill to be ruled over.

In Christ

Montana Marv

You are STILL missing it! in chapter 9 it is very clear how many will be killed. In chapter 6, it is clear that they are limited in WHERE they can operate to only 1/4th of the earth. There is NO MENTION as to how many they will kill: it could be 1% or it could be 100%. That information is simply NOT GIVEN.

However, looking back over the church age: just one: a pestilence: the black plague: hit Europe I think at least three times! Each time it killed about 1/3 of the people. Then where was two world wars. I have never read what percentage of the people of Europe and Africa were killed by these two words. But the truth is, there has hardly been a ten year stretch in Europe where there was not war going on somewhere where people were being killed. War does that.

How many have died over the age of the church, in Europe and Africa through famines? It is unknown, but millions, for sure.

Edited July 22, 2019 by iamlamad