Some encouraging Scriptures about the rapture

[Spock]

1 hour ago, JustPassingThru said:

This has already been posted:

These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:14 ASV

Notice, they washed their robes...,

Whereas we, the church, it is Jesus who has washed us:

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:4,5

Two completely different groups of people, 

also,

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation,  Rev 7:13, 14

Which means John didn't know who they were, John definitely knew who the Church was Rev 2 &3, but these people he didn't, ...it's not the Church!

What surprises me about Rev 7:9-17 is that group has a lot of people, right? 

I did not think many people would come to Christ after the rapture with the Beast and False Prophet doing their signs and wonder thingy and God sending mankind a delusion to those who did not believe when they had a chance. 

So how did the “Trib Saints” get so large? Any thoughts? 

[Spock]

4 hours ago, OldCoot said:

That would be in error.  While the wrath being foisted on the redeemed is of the evil one, unlike where the seals are broken by Messiah, the wrath that the redeemed are suffering under today is not because the Lord is starting events.  It is solely the discretion of the evil one. The primary focus at this time is the redeemed of the church.  The primary focus of the tribulation period is not, as explained in my last post.

It is because the time is short and that calamities are coming upon the condemned that the outpouring of the wrath of the evil one is piled on those who have come to faith in Messiah.  

In either case, the wrath upon the redeemed is solely the discretion of the evil one.  Again, it is not the focus of the tribulation period that is being brought about by the Lord.  The saints part of that period is just a side note.  And not keeping this perspective of the Tribulation period takes away from what the purpose of that period is all about. And its primarily purpose has nothing to do with saints.

I can’t deny Your logic here coot....very impressive indeed. I’m not saying it has to be right....it is just very logical. 

[Spock]

6 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Let's see.... was not the wrath of Yahweh revealed on the world during the Great Flood?  Was not the wrath of Yahweh revealed against Sodom and Gomorrah?   Yet the first actual mention of the word "wrath" was not till the end of Genesis.

Also, was it not at the direction of the Lord the conquering and subjugation of Israel by the Assyrians?  Yet it was not the Lord who actually did the work. The Lord uses even secular and evil people to accomplish what He has stated will be. Nebuchadnezer was certainly not one of the elect, but he sure accomplished what the Lord said would happen to Judea.  And many in Canaan who were faithful to the Lord suffered and died under the hand of the conquerers which were allowed to do what they did by the Lord.

The events of the seals will not happen if Yeshua does not open them.  Therefore, it is under His authority that the events are allowed to be revealed and occur. In a court of Law, that would mean He is the one who actually was responsible for the events even though He allows others to carry out the details.   The saints of that time are not the only ones who will suffer and die.  Many that are not saints will also suffer and die.   It is indeed the wrath of the Lamb that is going on from Seal One.  Those that dwell on the earth finally come to that realization by Seal Six when they say the wrath "has come" (or become known or revealed to them).

And Paul is quite clear in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the "Day of the Lord" will not occur until the departure occurs which happens before the man of sin / antichrist is revealed who arguably is the character referenced in Seal One of Revelation.   He was calming the Thessalonians down because they had been told or a forged letter had been given them that stated they were in the "Day of the Lord".  And Paul had to remind them of what he told them before (see 1 Thessalonians).  Why would they be upset about being in the Day of the Lord unless they were taught by Paul they would be removed from it?  If they had been taught they would go thru that time, why did Paul need to set them straight? 

 

Hey coot,

The 2 Thess 2 passage is tricky for me. I could see it go more than one way.

1. The apostasy (departure of faith or the departure of Saints ) and the man of sin is revealed before the DOTL, right?  So, if the man of sin is truly revealed for who he is at the abomination Of desolation (3.5 years into the week) then isn’t it possible the rapture could occur just before the abomination, instead of just before the covenant being confirmed?  This would make it a mid Trib rapture (one of my two beliefs) 

2. If the man of sin is revealed at the covenant being confirmed instead of at the AOD, then the DOTL can begin immediately after this event, which would probably support a pre 70th week rapture. (The second of My two beliefs) 

SO, which one is right? There may be a third choice, but these two appear to be the top two for me. 

Thoughts?

[OldCoot]

32 minutes ago, Spock said:

Hey coot,

The 2 Thess 2 passage is tricky for me. I could see it go more than one way.

1. The apostasy (departure of faith or the departure of Saints ) and the man of sin is revealed before the DOTL, right?  So, if the man of sin is truly revealed for who he is at the abomination Of desolation (3.5 years into the week) then isn’t it possible the rapture could occur just before the abomination, instead of just before the covenant being confirmed?  This would make it a mid Trib rapture (one of my two beliefs) 

2. If the man of sin is revealed at the covenant being confirmed instead of at the AOD, then the DOTL can begin immediately after this event, which would probably support a pre 70th week rapture. (The second of My two beliefs) 

SO, which one is right? There may be a third choice, but these two appear to be the top two for me. 

Thoughts?

It is tricky only in that there has been a plethora of translations regarding the Greek "apostosia" in verse 3.

Apostosia simply means "departure".  it can only mean a departure from the faith if that was outlined in the passage.  The only other passage that uses apostosia is Acts 21:21 and it explicitly says what is being departed from.... the Law of Moses.   Up till the KJV came on the scene, every English translation simply used "departure", "the departure", "a departure", etc.  Many well know Greek scholars concur that the passage should only say that, not falling away, apostasy, rebellion, etc.

The context of the chapter is in verse one..... the Day of the Lord and our gathering to Him.  Not our departing or falling away from Him.  The departure of verse 3 only makes grammatical sense if it is the departure that is our gathering to the Lord.  And the contextual structure of the Greek in verse 3 implies a specific departure event, not a general departure over time like a "falling away" would suggest.  Just as in real estate the main focus is location,  proper hermeneutics demands that context be the primary focus in scripture interpretation.

Dr. Kenneth Wuest, Professor of NT Greek for Moody Bible Institute for over 40 years, Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary, Dr. Ed Hindson, dean of the School of Religion at Liberty University, etc  all concur that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 has a physical, literal departure in view.  As do the translators of the Geneva Bible, Tyndale Bible, Beza Bible, etc translated the passage as simply "departure".  Likewise, the standard Bible of the church for 1200 years, the Latin Vulgate, uses discessio as the Latin for apostasia which also has the meaning of a physical, spatial departure, not a spiritual one.

Actually, according to Dr. Andy Woods, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is pre-trib.... game, set, match.

[Spock]

15 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

It is tricky only in that there has been a plethora of translations regarding the Greek "apostosia" in verse 3.

Apostosia simply means "departure".  it can only mean a departure from the faith if that was outlined in the passage.  The only other passage that uses apostosia is Acts 21:21 and it explicitly says what is being departed from.... the Law of Moses.   Up till the KJV came on the scene, every English translation simply used "departure", "the departure", "a departure", etc.  Many well know Greek scholars concur that the passage should only say that, not falling away, apostasy, rebellion, etc.

The context of the chapter is in verse one..... the Day of the Lord and our gathering to Him.  Not our departing or falling away from Him.  The departure of verse 3 only makes grammatical sense if it is the departure that is our gathering to the Lord.  And the contextual structure of the Greek in verse 3 implies a specific departure event, not a general departure over time like a "falling away" would suggest.  Just as in real estate the main focus is location,  proper hermeneutics demands that context be the primary focus in scripture interpretation.

Dr. Kenneth Wuest, Professor of NT Greek for Moody Bible Institute for over 40 years, Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary, Dr. Ed Hindson, dean of the School of Religion at Liberty University, etc  all concur that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 has a physical, literal departure in view.  As do the translators of the Geneva Bible, Tyndale Bible, Beza Bible, etc translated the passage as simply "departure".  Likewise, the standard Bible of the church for 1200 years, the Latin Vulgate, uses discessio as the Latin for apostasia which also has the meaning of a physical, spatial departure, not a spiritual one.

Actually, according to Dr. Andy Woods, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is pre-trib.... game, set, match.

Okay, going with this (mad love for Andy Woods)...lets say that means departure of the Saints....

okay, the departure and revealing occur BEFORE THE DOTL, RIGHT. 

If the revealing is at the abomination why can’t the departure (rapture) be immediately before the revealing? The DOTL IMMEDIATELY follows that, so here is the order:

1. Covenant confirmed

2. Rapture

3. Revealing of man of sin ( abomination)

4. Day of the Lord (trumpets and bowls) 

[JustPassingThru]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

What surprises me about Rev 7:9-17 is that group has a lot of people, right? 

I did not think many people would come to Christ after the rapture with the Beast and False Prophet doing their signs and wonder thingy and God sending mankind a delusion to those who did not believe when they had a chance. 

So how did the “Trib Saints” get so large? Any thoughts? 

The cults!

We are given a clue in Hebrews 11:5:

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

...and was not found, that tells us there were people looking for him, ...just think about all who have knocked on our doors telling us they know how to live in Paradise by selling magazines, all who have rode their bikes to tell us we can have multiple wives and a eternal sex orgy, ...just to name two of the prominent ones, ...how about our bosses and coworkers who watched our lives under their microscopes waiting to find a fault, ...personally I believe (and I'm not going to argue this) that at the Rapture of the Church, all of the children, all over the face of this planet, who have not reached the age of accountability will be taken too, ...just think what effect that will have on the other religions when only the true Christians, ...and their children, ...disappear!

That's what I believe, I have peace with it and now I'll just wait and see how it plays out, I believe, ...real soon.

Lord bless  

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

Okay, going with this (mad love for Andy Woods)...lets say that means departure of the Saints....

okay, the departure and revealing occur BEFORE THE DOTL, RIGHT. 

If the revealing is at the abomination why can’t the departure (rapture) be immediately before the revealing? The DOTL IMMEDIATELY follows that, so here is the order:

1. Covenant confirmed

2. Rapture

3. Revealing of man of sin ( abomination)

4. Day of the Lord (trumpets and bowls) 

The real order is. The Rapture, revealing of the A/C, Covenant confirmed, A/D at the mid point, Satan pursues the Woman for 42 months, followed by the Seals, Trumpets and Bowl judgments over the last 42 months.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Spock]

10 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

The real order is. The Rapture, revealing of the A/C, Covenant confirmed, A/D at the mid point, Satan pursues the Woman for 42 months, followed by the Seals, Trumpets and Bowl judgments over the last 42 months.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Thanks Marv, but I know this is the traditional pre Trib timeline....

but.........

all im looking for our reasons WHY THIS CANT BE THE TIMELINE?

1. Confirm covenant

2. Rapture

3. Antichrist truly revealed at AOD (until now, his true identity was hidden) 

4. DOTL

 

[Montana Marv]

57 minutes ago, Spock said:

Thanks Marv, but I know this is the traditional pre Trib timeline....

but.........

all im looking for our reasons WHY THIS CANT BE THE TIMELINE?

1. Confirm covenant

2. Rapture

3. Antichrist truly revealed at AOD (until now, his true identity was hidden) 

4. DOTL

 

Who is the he that does the confirming?

Why hide his identity. The whole world follows this beast and the False Prophet.

The Day of the Lord could be a day, number of months or a number of years. There are more than one Day of the Lord.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Spock said:

What surprises me about Rev 7:9-17 is that group has a lot of people, right? 

I did not think many people would come to Christ after the rapture with the Beast and False Prophet doing their signs and wonder thingy and God sending mankind a delusion to those who did not believe when they had a chance. 

So how did the “Trib Saints” get so large? Any thoughts? 

Hi Spock,

Hope you don`t mind me butting in here. We know that the Lord`s hand of mercy is always outstretched and people have an opportunity to turn to Him while still alive. At the moment many who call themselves Christians are being deceived and will go into the tribulation without even realising. Man`s `church` meetings will still be going on with their ministers still in the pulpit, as they are now getting more and more connected to the world system.

Also many will think the Russian war is Armageddon and thus when the man of peace comes in, who will they think he is, especially when he seemingly arises from the dead. Great deception.

So the `great multitude,` we see come out of the Great tribulation, the last part, when the A/C starts to reveal his true colours - control. Also at that time we see that food is expense, (crops burnt & water polluted etc by first judgments), and I should say that having to take the mark of the beast will wake many up to his real identity. Then finally we know that when people are dying they will cry out to God for help. This great multitude we see die of `heat, hunger and thirst,` (Rev. 7: 16) which is a result of the bowl judgments.

regards, Marilyn.