The Significance of the Technical Term "Earth Dwellers" to the Formation of a Biblical Eschatological Model

[Keras]

10 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Until you can say what believers in Jesus Christ are doing worshiping a " holy place "  :

                              " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet ,stand in the holy place ."  ( Matthew 24 : 15 )

The Christians, that is: every faithful believing person, are in the holy Land before the Anti-Christ conquers them. Zechariah 14:1-2 Half of them go into exile, to the place of safety and the rest remain. Daniel 11:32 and Revelation 12:6-17  They do not worship the AoD. 

[Unfailing Presence]

59 minutes ago, Keras said:

11 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Until you can say what believers in Jesus Christ are doing worshiping a " holy place "  :

                              " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet ,stand in the holy place ."  ( Matthew 24 : 15 )

The Christians, that is: every faithful believing person, are in the holy Land before the Anti-Christ conquers them. Zechariah 14:1-2 Half of them go into exile, to the place of safety and the rest remain. Daniel 11:32 and Revelation 12:6-17  They do not worship the AoD.

Somebody is worshiping the " holy Place "   that Jesus details as being the tribulations flashpoint .

That is not even debatable .

Your slippery squirming  and refusal to state exactly who is worshiping the " holy place "  notwithstanding  . 

Jesus obviously knew who He was speaking to , and so do I  .

And it comports seamlessly with the pre-trib position . 

The post-trib position , not so much . 

 

[Steve Conley]

9 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Those who try to attempt a universality of Matthew 24 related to the "church" are 100% wrong

This passage of scripture is all about Israel duringthe 70th week by location and by description

The Lord is not speaking about anything else in His discourse 

 

 

 

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Daniel 11:36, please follow Jesus' answer to His disciples concerning the question "...what shall be the sign of thy coming..."

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

He wanted them to know what would happen before He would return, so that they wouldn't be deceived.

Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Verses 5-8 describe the beginning of sorrows or early birth pains. These are consistent with what John sees at the opening of the first three seals.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Verse 9 is Christ's initial description of the great tribulation. Great tribulation details continue all the way to verse 29, which gives indication that it is over when the cosmic sign appears. The use of the word "then" in verse 9, lets us know that it follows "the beginning of sorrows". Notice that they are being killed for Jesus' name sake. These are believers in Jesus Christ. Believers are the church (the body of Christ). This has been the situation ever since the Holy Spirit was given to indwell the believer at Pentecost. The Holy Spirit is the instrument through which we are placed into the body of Christ.

To try to make these persecuted saints some other ficticious class of Christian, such as "tribulation saints," is to pervert the clear teaching and the unity of the Holy Scriptures. The elect, which are mentioned in Matthew 24 three times, are most definitely the church. Jesus said, concerning them being deceived by the the miracles performed by the false prophet, "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The fact that it is impossible for the truly elect to be deceived into taking the mark or worshiping the beast is evidence that the elect cannot be Israel. During the great tribulation Israel is still blinded in part because their blindness is not removed until the fullness of the gentiles be come in, which cannot happen until the great tribulation is over. The innumerable multitude before the throne in Rev 7:9-17 are said to have come out of great tribulation. These are "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," therefore, they must include gentiles. If gentiles are coming to Christ in the great tribulation then the fullness of the Gentiles is not yet come in until after the great tribulation. If you are one of those who wrongly thinks "the fullness of the gentiles" and "the times of the gentiles" are the same thing the argument is even stronger, because the times of the gentiles doesn't end until the 42 months of Rev 11:2 is complete in the end of the week.

You have allowed the commentators and the so called theologians to take away from you a passage of the Holy Scriptures which are foundational to a right eschatological understanding. I find it incredulous that Christ's answer concerning the events preceding His coming given to the Apostles, who are part of the foundation of the church, is said to refer exclusively to the end time Jew. How foolish to think such when the very same week Christ told these same men "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Also, later before He ascended to the right hand of the Father, He charged these same Apostles with the great commission, assuring them that "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." This is the same end of the age that they had asked a sign concerning.

To exclude Matthew 24 and claim Matthew 28:19-20 and John 14:3 for the church is to mishandle and wrest the Holy Scriptures. There are thirty parallels to Matt 24 and 25 in Paul's letters to the Thessalonians. They teach the same thing.

Hallelujah

[Keras]

4 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Somebody is worshiping the " holy Place "   that Jesus details as being the tribulations flashpoint .

That is not even debatable .

Your slippery squirming  and refusal to state exactly who is worshiping the " holy place "  notwithstanding  . 

Jesus obviously knew who He was speaking to , and so do I  .

And it comports seamlessly with the pre-trib position . 

The post-trib position , not so much . 

 

This sort of reply is unworthy of any person, let alone one who purports to be Christian. 

Why demand answers when nothing I say will change your mind?  Obviously it will be the ungodly people of the world, who will worship the beast. Revelation 13:4

Any 'rapture to heaven' position is false teaching and such a thing cannot happen. Our destiny is on earth and we must fulfil our God given tasks here. 

[Unfailing Presence]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

7 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Somebody is worshiping the " holy Place "   that Jesus details as being the tribulations flashpoint .

That is not even debatable .

Your slippery squirming  and refusal to state exactly who is worshiping the " holy place "  notwithstanding  . 

Jesus obviously knew who He was speaking to , and so do I  .

And it comports seamlessly with the pre-trib position . 

The post-trib position , not so much . 

 

This sort of reply is unworthy of any person, let alone one who purports to be Christian. 

Why demand answers when nothing I say will change your mind?  Obviously it will be the ungodly people of the world, who will worship the beast. Revelation 13:4

Any 'rapture to heaven' position is false teaching and such a thing cannot happen. Our destiny is on earth and we must fulfil our God given tasks here. 

The confounding you face due to a Jewish " holy place "  being the tribulation's flashpoint as stated by this Jesus who is the Christ is not unique .

The entire post-trib theology is similarly  hobbled at every turn of looking into the  scripture in this way .

Personally I would become quite frustrated myself with the constant  round peg , square hole pounding required 

[Steve Conley]

On 3/10/2018 at 7:27 PM, Last Daze said:

Hey Steve,

I'm familiar with the rationale for the pre-wrath position and held that view myself for several years.  

The multitude in Revelation 7 are identified specifically as coming out of the great tribulation.  Nothing suggests that others outside of that specific group are there.  And there is nothing to indicate that the group in Revelation 7 have their immortal bodies.  

It is true that Jesus' appearing comes after the signs He described in Matthew 24:29, and that those signs correlate to the sixth seal, but his appearing does not take place immediately after as you presume.  That's the fatal flaw of the pre-wrath view.  What does Jesus say appears after those signs?  The Son of Man?  No.  He says that the sign of the Son of Man appears in the sky.  When reading the description of the sixth seal there's no mention that anyone sees the Son of Man. 

The sixth seal describes people who are hiding for fear of what's coming.  When Jesus describes His appearing, He says all the tribes of the earth will mourn which is quite a different reaction that hiding out of fear.

This is how I see Matthew 24:30:

And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky (this is the sixth seal),

(then the first six plagues take place)

and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  (this is the seventh plague)

Also, we know that the resurrection of the righteous unto immortality takes place on the last day.  The sixth seal is not really the last day of anything.  The seventh plague, however, is the last day of Satan's reign, and that's what this is all about . . . regime change.

That's how I see it anyway.   The main thing is that we are prepared to endure to the end, however it comes about.  And my prayer for the body of Christ is for spiritual discernment and perseverance for the months and years ahead.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Last Daze, thank you for your response. What torture many will put the Scriptures through to hang onto the deceptively pleasing construct of fallen man known as the pretribulation rapture.

Notice that the sign of the son of man is Jesus coming in the clouds. Matthew places it in the order that he does so that we can know that the cause of the mourning by the tribes of the earth is Christ's return, for it is after they see Him in all his glory that they begin to wail.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Notice the flow in each passage from the cosmic sign right into Christ's second coming (parousia = His arrival and continuing presence)

It helps to read each of the three records that we have of the Olivet Discourse. I really like how that when you just believe what the Scriptures plainly say there is no "fatal flaw". Pre-wrath is the name recently given to the eschatological teachings of the Word of God to distinguish them from the many faulty systems believed and taught today.

Concerning the innumerable multitude, we know explicitly:

• They are too many in number to count. (Since the largest number given in Revelation is 200,000,000; it seems reasonable that they would number greater than that.)
• They are predominately Gentile Christians. (They are "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues". "Nations" is translated from the Greek word ethnos. Ethnos is the one word in the New Testament that primarily means non-Jew. Therefore these are predominately Gentile Christians.)
• They came out of great tribulation. (Their arrival in Heaven will follow Christ's gathering of His own at His coming. His coming will interrupt the great tribulation, with the rescue of His own who are alive and remain. Dan 12:1b-2  "...there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel lets us know that this deliverance is associated with the resurrection of the dead. Paul said that there was an order to the resurrection and that the next to "stand again" in the order of the resurrection would be "they that are Christ's at His coming." As recorded in Rev 20:4-6, it was revealed to John that the faithful saints of the first resurrection will reign with Christ 1000 years. These saints include those which experienced great tribulation.)
• They appear in Heaven (Rev 7:9-17) after the great earthquake and cosmic sign which announces Christ's arrival at His parousia (Rev 6:12-17), but before His wrath is poured out beginning with the 1st trumpet judgement (Rev 8). (The order is: 1) war in heaven and Satan cast out to the earth, 2) the revelation of the man of sin (abomination of desolation), 3) the severe persecution of the elect and Israel in the great tribulation, 4) the falling away by so called Christians who are offended when persecuted, 5) The cosmic sign and great earthquake, 6) Christ's return in the clouds, 7) the resurrection of the dead in Christ 8) the catching up of those who remained alive together with the resurrected saints unto Jesus in the clouds by the angels, 9) taken to the fathers house to stand before the throne, 10) 144,000 sealed for protection through the trumpet and vial judgements, 11) the seventh seal opened and 1/2 hour of silence in heaven, 12) the first trumpet blown and God's wrath begins to be poured out upon the earth dwellers.)

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11  And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12  Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16  They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17  For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Concerning the reaction of the world to being caught like a thief, it is one of fear. They wail and hide. They manifest the sorrow of the world. They mourn because of the fierce wrath that is to come upon them. There is no repentance for those who have taken the mark of the beast. All that awaits them is judgement and wrath. Only Israel will receive chastening, repent, and be saved in a day.

Hallelujah

 

 

[Daniel 11:36]

"Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

The correct scripture tells of those who "came away from great tribulation"

Believe this

Either sway this group will not be in the coming tribulation period, but will be made immortal

[inchrist]

9 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Notice the flow in each passage from the cosmic sign right into Christ's second coming (parousia = His arrival and continuing presence)

Sorry just a question why do you treat cosmic sign as singular?

[inchrist]

On 11/03/2018 at 3:59 AM, Unfailing Presence said:

A believer cannot place him or her self in the midst of the tribulation short of giving themselves the preeminence  .

Why not? Where does it state God will remove you from tribulation?

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Last Daze, thank you for your response. What torture many will put the Scriptures through to hang onto the deceptively pleasing construct of fallen man known as the pretribulation rapture.

Not sure how that's relevant but, okay.  I left the pretrib camp decades ago.

10 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Notice that the sign of the son of man is Jesus coming in the clouds. Matthew places it in the order that he does so that we can know that the cause of the mourning by the tribes of the earth is Christ's return, for it is after they see Him in all his glory that they begin to wail.

No matter how you spin it, the fact remains that only the sign of the son of Man, the Lamb, is seen at the sixth seal.  There is no mention of seeing Jesus, or Him on the clouds.  It's simply not there.  The sky is split apart with no mention of seeing any clouds or Jesus. 

And at the sixth seal, people are hiding for fear of what's to come.  That is not a response of people who are mourning.  Mourning is an expression of sorrow, and doesn't cause people to hide.  Crying would be an appropriate response of one mourning but not hiding in caves.  I've never been to a funeral where people are looking for somewhere to hide.  At the sixth seal, people fear.  When the son of Man appears in the clouds, they mourn.  Two completely different points in time.  Two completely different reactions.

And the sixth seal is not the last day.  The resurrection of the righteous unto immortality takes place on the last day as Jesus stated several times.

• And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  Matthew 24:30

Two different things are seen, the sign of the Son of Man, and then the Son of Man.  They are not the same.  The first one occurs at the sixth seal.  The second one occurs at the seventh trumpet.