Mystery Babylon

[Hidden In Him]

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

First thing is, her plagues come in a single day, and while she is burned up with fire, it is the Lord God judging her, not the ten kings.  In verse 9 you will notice the kings are sad about this, and in verse 10 they are standing far off from her.  Also, note that fire is not the only thing involved as we look further.

Not quite sure I understand your point here. So you're saying the ten kings are the same kings who then become sad at her torment and stand afar off?

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

That's not exactly what it says in Revelation 18, take a closer look at some excerpts, because I think this idea is based on inference than fact.

Revelation 18:8 For this reason her plagues will come in a single day,
    death and mourning and famine,
and she will be burned up with fire;
    for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her.”

9 And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning. 10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say,

“Alas! Alas! You great city,
    you mighty city, Babylon!
For in a single hour your judgment has come.”

First thing is, her plagues come in a single day, and while she is burned up with fire, it is the Lord God judging her, not the ten kings.  In verse 9 you will notice the kings are sad about this, and in verse 10 they are standing far off from her.  Also, note that fire is not the only thing involved as we look further.

Revelation 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying,

“So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence,
    and will be found no more;

When God judges her, is the second woe, and the third woe comes quickly.  This is all the end game, the ten kings only have authority for one hour, the same amount of time it takes for the city to be destroyed.  The place they are standing is where they have been gathered to fight Jesus, which is why they are outside the city and can see it burning from far off.  When the angel throws that great millstone into the sea, you get the great earthquake.

I read through this response several times, but you'll have to forgive me that I don't fully follow the point you're making here. You appear to be arguing that the expression "will be found no more" is either figurative or temporary. Can you clarify for me?

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
    and of all who have been slain on earth.”

Now, what city can make such a claim?  Let's start first with something Jesus said.

Matthew 23:34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Now this confirms that Jerusalem is Babylon, it is the only city in all of scripture that this is said of, and it can only apply to one city on earth. 

Though not addressed to me, I read through this as well. In response here I would argue that these two passages do not equate historically (unless you are a preterist). Rev 18:24 speaks prophetically of the blood that Mystery Babylon will be held accountable for, whereas Matthew 23:35 addresses the blood for which Jerusalem has already been held accountable (in 70 AD).

Are you a preterist, Wingnut?

Edited April 6, 2018 by Hidden In Him

[Daniel 11:36]

This is a miss understood idea and not true that Babylon the Great is in Israel alone .... Mystery Babylon the Great is the Lord's composite reflection of the entire earth from Genesis 11 forward to this very day 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, HAZARD said:

According to many Bible scholars and historians the great whore is identified as a great religious system, the Roman Catholic Church, which they claim will fulfil Rev. 17 and dominate the Antichrist for a short time during his rise over the ten kings and until the middle of the Week. Then the beast and the ten kings will destroy her (Rev. 17:9-17).

Even catholic divines admit Rev. 17 is a description of their church. (See the writings of Cardinal Ballarmine and the French Prelate. Boussuet.)

She has a name on her forehead, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT. "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS" Rev. 17:5. This name is certainly appropriate to Romanism. Hundreds of different branches of Christendom have been formed since the reformation. The word HARLOTS no doubt refers to these branches which will become more apostate as the age ends andwill finally become united with Rome again to fulfil this revelation of things after the churches. Many churches are looking to Rome even now.

THE MOTHER OF ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Rev. 17:5. This is very appropriate of Romanism. The many abominations started and practices by the ancient Babylonian cult and her present successor go far to identify this woman as a symbol of Romanism.

THE GREAT WHORE. Rev. 17: 1-2. She is called this because of her illicit intercourse with the kings of the Earth in religious practices and uperstitions, and which give her influence over the nations of the ten kings.

And there are many more examples!!!!! Even the attire worn by her clergy. Rev. 17:4. Scarlet is the color of Romanism, being reserved for the Pope and his cardinals. This religious denomination is the richest on Earth as pictured in this verse.

The drunkenness of this whore proves her to be Romanism. Rev. 17:6-7. This finger of accusation is no mere accident. While it refers to the martyrdom of saints "after the churches," by Romanism, still is it not common knowledge that this same persecution has gone on in past ages? It has been estimated that more than 200,000,000, people have been slain by Romanism in the past. These terrible days of persecution will come again, at least after the rapture of the church, and before Christ comes to the earth,

(Rev. 6: 9-11; 7:9-17.

You nailed it. Well said.

[Daniel 11:36]

No, he did not nail it

The false church of Rome is only a part of the problem .... the Lord is speaking about the entire lost world 

[Goldie]

Catholicism is not the false church. There are 1,000s of churches that have sprouted up over the years. Only one is the original true church and that, is the Catholic church.

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, Hidden In Him said:

Not quite sure I understand your point here. So you're saying the ten kings are the same kings who then become sad at her torment and stand afar off?

 

Yes, they are with them, this is told to us in Revelation 17.

 

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”

 

This is referencing what you see in chapter 19, the rider on the white horse.

 

5 hours ago, Hidden In Him said:

I read through this response several times, but you'll have to forgive me that I don't fully follow the point you're making here. You appear to be arguing that the expression "will be found no more" is either figurative or temporary. Can you clarify for me?

 

No, it's not figurative or temporary, Jerusalem as it is known will be no more as seen by the results of the judgments.

 

Revelation 16: 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.20 And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found.

 

No city on the planet is going to remain, nothing about the earth will be as we know it, the above is from the 7th bowl.  Remember, the second and third woe come right on top of each other, the end comes quickly as foretold by the prophets.

 

5 hours ago, Hidden In Him said:

Are you a preterist, Wingnut?

 

I'm as far from a preterist as is possible.

 

5 hours ago, Hidden In Him said:

Though not addressed to me, I read through this as well. In response here I would argue that these two passages do not equate historically (unless you are a preterist). Rev 18:24 speaks prophetically of the blood that Mystery Babylon will be held accountable for, whereas Matthew 23:35 addresses the blood for which Jerusalem has already been held accountable (in 70 AD).

 

The odd thing about this statement is, you're actually supporting a preterist view by stating they have been held accountable.  The Lord does not repay until He returns, not before.

 

Deuteronomy 32:35  Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.’

 

Romans 12:19  Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

 

Hebrews 10:30  For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”

 

Revelation 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

 

God bless

[Hidden In Him]

44 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

The odd thing about this statement is, you're actually supporting a preterist view by stating they have been held accountable. 

I do believe that's the first time I've ever been accused of being a preterist, LoL. 

Ok, I can see our interpretations of so many verses are in conflict with one another that we may need to just hang it up for now.

Chalk it up as a brief introduction to each other on this topic.  Maybe we can continue it another time.

[wingnut-]

13 minutes ago, Hidden In Him said:

I do believe that's the first time I've ever been accused of being a preterist, LoL. 

 

Awww brother, I was not accusing you, I was just pointing out that this is precisely the position the preterists point to, that these things were fulfilled in 70ad.  Don't feel bad, it was not meant that way.  Oddly enough, you are the first person I can recall thinking that I was a preterist lol.

 

16 minutes ago, Hidden In Him said:

Ok, I can see our interpretations of so many verses are in conflict with one another that we may need to just hang it up for now.

Chalk it up as a brief introduction to each other on this topic.  Maybe we can continue it another time.

 

Agreed, this is not the right thread to hash everything out in regards to overall views.  My response is to the OP, she will get plenty of responses about the other positions, I am not interested in a debate on the matter.  Perhaps in the future we will learn more about what the other believes.

God bless

[Hidden In Him]

Just now, wingnut- said:

Awww brother, I was not accusing you, I was just pointing out that this is precisely the position the preterists point to, that these things were fulfilled in 70ad.  Don't feel bad, it was not meant that way.  Oddly enough, you are the first person I can recall thinking that I was a preterist lol.

 

LoL. 

2 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Agreed, this is not the right thread to hash everything out in regards to overall views.  My response is to the OP, she will get plenty of responses about the other positions, I am not interested in a debate on the matter.  Perhaps in the future we will learn more about what the other believes.

God bless

Thanks. I had to back out on another thread I got involved in at another Forum about a month ago cuz it started turning into a mental monstrosity on me that I really didn't have the time or energy for. And when it comes to that, heavily-involved discussions on eschatology can be just about the worst, LoL.

Hopefully He gives me time and space down the road to fully consider your position. There are some things there I've certainly never considered before, at the very least. 

[HAZARD]

5 hours ago, Goldie said:

Catholicism is not the false church. There are 1,000s of churches that have sprouted up over the years. Only one is the original true church and that, is the Catholic church.

Spoken like a true Catholic. I used to believe that too once. I thank God every He opened my eyes and my mind to the truth. There's only one true church and that's the church led by Jesus Christ and not the Pope, or any other man.

Here is how the Catholic church and all her offshoots began. The city Babylon was built by Nimrod, the mighty hunter (Gen. 10:8-10). It was the seat of the first great apostasy against God after the flood. Here the Babylonian Cult was invented by Nimrod and his Queen, Semiramis. It was a system claiming the highest wisdom and ability to reveal the most divine secrets. This cult was characterized by the word "Mystery" because of its mysteries. Beside confessing to the priests at admission to this cult, one was compelled to drink of "mysterious beverages," which says Salvert (Des Sciences Occultes, Page 259) was indespensible on the part of those who saught initation into these mysteries.

The "mysterious beverages' were composed of wine, honey, water, and flour. They were always of an intoxicating nature, and untill the aspirants had come under the influence of it and had their understanding dimmed they were not prepared for what they were to see and hear. The method was to introduce privately, little by little, information under seal of secrecy and sanction of oath that would be impossible to reveal otherwise. This has been the policy of the Roman Church and the secret of the power of the priests over the lives of men whom they could expose to the world for their sins that have been confessed to them.

Once admitted, men were no longer Babylonians, Assyrians, or Egyptians, but were members of a mystical brotherhood, over whom was placed a Supreme Pontif or High Priest who's word was final in all things in the lives of the brotherhood regardless of the country in which they lived. The ostensible objects of worship were the Supreme Father, the Incarnate Female or Queen of Heaven, and her Son. The last two were only objects of worship, as the Supreme Father was said not to interfere with mortal affaires (Nimrod 111, Page 239). This system is believed to have come from fallen angels and demons.

The object of the cult was to rule the world by these dogmas. Much more can be said but to simplify things, Damasus, Bishop of the Christian Church at Rome, was elected to the office of Supreme Pontif. He had been bishop for twelve years, having been made suchin 366 A. D. through influence of the monks of Mount Carmel, a college of the Babylonian religion originally founded by the priests of Jezebel and continued to this day in connection with Rome. So, in 378 A. D., the babylonian system of religion became part of Christendom, for the bishop of Rome, who later became the supreme head of the organized church, was already Supreme Pontiff of the Babylonian Order. All the teachings of pagan Babylon and Rome were gradually interspersed into the Christian religious organization. Soon after Damasus was made Supreme Pontiff, the rites of Babylon began to come to the front. The worship of the Roman Church became babylonish, and under him, the heathen temples were restored and beautified and the rituals established. Thus, the currupt religious system under the figure of a woman with a golden cup in her hand, making all nations drunk with her fornication, is called by God "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT."

The first practice that grew up after this union was the introduction of the worship of the saints, especially of the virgin Mary. Thousands of pagans entered the church in those days who were accustomed to worshiping the gods of towns and places, who were not thoroughly Christianized. The veneration of saints and holy men became a worship. Saints were considered lesser dieties, whos intercession availed with God. Places connected with the lives of holy men were considered sacred and pilgrimages were started. Relics or bones of saints were believed to have miraculous power. The worship of the virgin Mary was set up in 381 A. D., three years after Damasus became bead of the Babylonian Cult.

Just as the Babylonian cult worshiped the "Queen of Heaven and her Son" and did not worship the Supreme Father because he simply did not interfere with mortal affairs, so the Roman Chrurch has a similar worship in that they worship Mary as the mother of God and her Son. The image of mother and child was an object of worship in Babylon long before Christ was born. From Babylon it spread to the ends of the Earth. The original mother was Semiramis, the beautiful queen of Nimrod, who was a paragon of unbridled lust and licentiousness.

In the "mysteries," which she had the chief part in forming, she was worshiped as Rhea (Chronicon Paschal, Volume 1, Page 65), the great "Mother of the God's" with such atrocious rites as identified her with Venus, the mother of all impurity. She raised Babylon, where she reigned to eminence among the nations as the great seat idolatry and consecrated prostetution (Hesiod, Theogonia, Volume 36, Page 435). The apocalyptic emblem of the harlot with cup in hand was one of idolatry derived from ancient Babylon, as they were exhibited in Greece, for thus the Greek Venus was originally represented (Herodotus, Historia, Book 1, cap. 199, Page 92).

Ironicilly the Roman Church has taken this as her emblem. In 1825 a medal was struck bearing the image of Pope Leo X11 on one side and on the other side Rome symbolized by a woman with a cross in her left hand and a cup in her right hand and a legend around her "Sedet Super Universum"; that is, "The whole world is her seat."

From this original practice, practically all nations have copied a similar worship, but in each land the same figure is carried out under different names. In Egypt the mother and child are known as Isis and Osiris; in India, Isi and Iswara; in Eastern Asia, Cybel and Deoius; in pagan Rome, Fortuna and Jupiter-puer; In Greece, Ceres or as Irene with Plutus in arms, etc. In Tibet, China, and Japan the Jesuits were suprised to find the counterpart of the Madonna (the Italian name for virgin) and her child as devoutly worshiped as in Rome itself. Shing Moo, the mother of China, is there represented with child in her arms and a glory around her exactly as if a Roman artist had paintd her. Where did these nations get this common worship if not from Babylon before the dispersion by God in the days of Nimrod (Gen. 11). Thus the worship of Mary in connection with her Son is of Babylonian origin for there is no mention of such worshiping Scripture. The Catholic church worships the Madonna and even believe she is co-redemptrix with Christ.