The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Let's go a little deeper, to see if I can understand you:

Matt 24:36 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.  v42 - Keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.    At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like.  Matt 13:24, 13:33, 44, 45, 47. 20:1. 22:1. 25:1   Matt 25:13 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.  One must be able to distinguish between the kingdom of heaven, and Christs Kingdom on earth during His 1000 year reign.  Two separate time periods.  No one knowing includes both you and me.

Let's not.  We've been at this impasse before and it's not germane to the topic.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Last Daze,

Been off road and off line this week, but have a bit now. Thought I`d add this to the mix -

Now there is a `door` and on the outside it says `whosoever may come,`....then on the inside we read `privileged/blessed` (or similar). So anyone may come to the Lord, but obviously those who do are most wonderfully blessed, etc.

The when the Body of Christ is brought to maturity/completion by the Holy Spirit then it is time to take it to its eternal setting. The timing of that is very special and gives the reason for missing the judgment upon the rebellious.

regards Marilyn.  

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Been off road and off line this week, but have a bit now. Thought I`d add this to the mix -

Now there is a `door` and on the outside it says `whosoever may come,`....then on the inside we read `privileged/blessed` (or similar). So anyone may come to the Lord, but obviously those who do are most wonderfully blessed, etc.

regards Marilyn.  

Hi Marilyn,

Also on the "door" is a sign that says "all who enter will have tribulation."  Some who have entered think that they will be exempted from a foretold tribulation event, not because they don't believe the sign on the door, but because they've been misled about what that tribulation event is.

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Then when the Body of Christ is brought to maturity/completion by the Holy Spirit then it is time to take it to its eternal setting. The timing of that is very special and gives the reason for missing the judgment upon the rebellious.

I agree with this.  However, I think we differ on what the body of Christ will go through in order to become mature, refined and without spot or blemish.

[Still Alive]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 8:09 AM, enoob57 said:

The very start of thought here starts at a incorrect place... The tribulation of God's wrath is a period like no other in Scripture:

The Word says man will always have trouble in this life (Job 14:1; John 16:33). However there is a specific time of tribulation coming on this world unlike anything that has ever come before or will ever come after (Dan 12:1). The tribulation period is the final 2,520-day (seven-year) period before the second coming of Christ.  God will pour out His wrath on this sinful, disobedient world.

The Tribulation begins when Antichrist and Israel sign a covenant with each other (Dan 9:27) and ends at the Second Coming. The intervening "week of years" (seven years) between these two events is what the Bible calls the seventieth week of Daniel (Dan 9:25-27).

Now understanding your position I place before you  a question: 
How is this verse fulfilled by God?

1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV
 

 

That's pretty much how I see it as well. I add the nuance of it being divided into two 3.5 year periods. The first being the tribulation period, also the wrath of satan against the church. This is followed by the rapture at the beginning of Revelation 7, followed by the wrath of God on everyone who is left.

But seeing as how we're talking about interpretation of prophesy, if it happens differently I wouldn't be surprised.

I don't see prophesy as there to "predict the future". Rather, I see it as there to prove God's power and sovereignty. I don't think there was a person alive (other than possibly John the Baptist, and only possibly) that accurately predicted Jesus as he actually came to be with us and was killed and resurrected. I think the same thing will happen regarding the 70th week. We all have our theories, but I think it will happen in ways none of us expected or imagined.

But I do think it is important to study it so we will know it when we see it. And we are admonished to watch and prepare.

[JoeChan82]

18 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I don't see prophesy as there to "predict the future". Rather, I see it as there to prove God's power and sovereignty. I don't think there was a person alive (other than possibly John the Baptist, and only possibly) that accurately predicted Jesus as he actually came to be with us and was killed and resurrected. I think the same thing will happen regarding the 70th week. We all have our theories, but I think it will happen in ways none of us expected or imagined.

I could not have said it better myself. Especially when we see that some future events are specifically sealed. Who knows exactly what those seven thunders said and what effect they might have concerning timings and events.

Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

Also on the "door" is a sign that says "all who enter will have tribulation."  Some who have entered think that they will be exempted from a foretold tribulation event, not because they don't believe the sign on the door, but because they've been misled about what that tribulation event is.

I agree with this.  However, I think we differ on what the body of Christ will go through in order to become mature, refined and without spot or blemish.

Hi Last Daze,

(`Also on the door....` lol) Actually, to come to Jesus we just have to humble ourselves under God. Then you are saying that for the Body to come to maturity in the Lord they will have to go through the `Tribulation,` the judgment of God.  So you see this as the purpose of the tribulation for the Body of Christ?

This brings us to `how the Body comes to maturity.`

So....then what about all those believers, prior to this time, how did they come to maturity in Christ?

regards, Marilyn. 

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, Butero said:

  You have been claiming that God's wrath isn't poured out until after the 7th trumpet, and now that I have proved you are wrong, you conveniently back it up to the 6th seal like you have known that all along.  You clearly did not know that, and if you are wrong about that, there is no reason to believe you are right about your other conclusions.

I have made the case in this forum that the 6th seal and the 7th trump occur simultaneously. From what I can see as soon as the seals are opened trumps begin to sound. Most people believe seals, trumps and bowls are strictly consecutive. I think the reality is the seals and trumps occur consecutively but both occur simultaneously during the allotted time frame, leaving the bowls to be poured out after and then take effect for the allotted time span.

The 6th seal is clearly wrath, the 7th trump is the LAST TRUMP at which we are gathered, we must be gathered before wrath and so both must occur simultaneously, as I said here, "No where does scripture say wrath begins before the 6th seal, and at the 7th trumpet coincidentally." in my previous post. It wasn't explained, which is why I'm doing it now.

6 hours ago, Butero said:

You have no scripture that can prove otherwise. 

Well that's not proof of anything. One cannot base a conclusion on silence. You can make up stories if you wish, but's it a flight of fancy, not an accurate fact based conclusion. Do you really base your hopes on conclusions that are not supported by biblical fact, but instead rely on "Prove me wrong, and if you can't then it's true."? This is a logical fallacy called Burden of Proof. An example;

Bill: "I think that some people have psychic powers." 
Jill: "What is your proof?" 
Bill: "No one has been able to prove that people do not have psychic powers."

Since you are making the assertion the burden of proof lies with you. So you prove, "There will be a lot of people that will be left behind or that weren't Christians before the tribulation period that will have genuine conversions, and will be completely sold out to serve Jesus. " with biblical fact. I know it's not true. No one will be left behind because the pretrib doctrine is false and there is no pretrib rapture.

You'll see soon enough. We all will.

6 hours ago, Butero said:

and just because the first time the word wrath is mentioned is after the 6th seal, that doesn't mean it wasn't happening before the 6th seal. 

True. But it cannot be proven it was happening before either. There is no biblical fact to support this contention and it is again arguing for a conclusion that is based on silence. If it ain't there it ain't true. What is there is truth, Wrath begins at the sixth seal, not before, not after. Any other contention is nothing more than campfire stories. You'll need to have biblical facts to prove your assertion.

Last point: The critical bit of proof is missing from the pretrib doctrine, "When?" Every instance of the gathering the saints, the brothers and sisters, the elect, is always associated with the coming of the Lord, the last trump, the signs in the heavens, armies surrounding Jerusalem, occurring after the apostasy and the revealing of the beast etc. So we have timing for a gathering and the critical proof is complete as we have answered all the important questions: Who? What? When? Where? and Why?

Where is the WHEN for pretrib? 

 

[enoob57]

11 hours ago, Still Alive said:

That's pretty much how I see it as well. I add the nuance of it being divided into two 3.5 year periods. The first being the tribulation period, also the wrath of satan against the church. This is followed by the rapture at the beginning of Revelation 7, followed by the wrath of God on everyone who is left.

But seeing as how we're talking about interpretation of prophesy, if it happens differently I wouldn't be surprised.

I don't see prophesy as there to "predict the future". Rather, I see it as there to prove God's power and sovereignty. I don't think there was a person alive (other than possibly John the Baptist, and only possibly) that accurately predicted Jesus as he actually came to be with us and was killed and resurrected. I think the same thing will happen regarding the 70th week. We all have our theories, but I think it will happen in ways none of us expected or imagined.

But I do think it is important to study it so we will know it when we see it. And we are admonished to watch and prepare.

well literally the rapture is chapter 4

Rev 4:1-4

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
KJV
They I believe are identified by their song

Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
KJV
 

[Steve Conley]

12 hours ago, Still Alive said:

That's pretty much how I see it as well. I add the nuance of it being divided into two 3.5 year periods. The first being the tribulation period, also the wrath of satan against the church. This is followed by the rapture at the beginning of Revelation 7, followed by the wrath of God on everyone who is left.

But seeing as how we're talking about interpretation of prophesy, if it happens differently I wouldn't be surprised.

I don't see prophesy as there to "predict the future". Rather, I see it as there to prove God's power and sovereignty. I don't think there was a person alive (other than possibly John the Baptist, and only possibly) that accurately predicted Jesus as he actually came to be with us and was killed and resurrected. I think the same thing will happen regarding the 70th week. We all have our theories, but I think it will happen in ways none of us expected or imagined.

But I do think it is important to study it so we will know it when we see it. And we are admonished to watch and prepare.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The seventieth week is made up of three distinct periods: The beginning of sorrows (the first ~3.5 years), Great Tribulation (the first portion of the second half of the week), and The Day of the Lord (the period in which God's wrath is poured out) makes up the remaining portion of the week.

Hallelujah

[n2thelight]

There are two tribulations,one of satan which is the first and one of Christ which is the second. satans is of deception Christ is for all who fell for that deception.