The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[OldCoot]

Well, throne may be more akin to a seat of power, not necessary a physical throne unless the text specifies that.  Like God seated on His throne.  Exalting a throne may not suggest a literal throne but an authority or power.   We know that Yeshua will be given David's throne as per the promise, yet I think we can agree that the physical seat David sat on is probably long since gone.  But Yeshua will occupy the authority and power of David as per the Davidic Covenant and affirmed by Gabriel to Mary in Luke 1:32.

So the claim of ha Satan was probably more in regards to establishing his authority and power above the stars (a suggestive reference to angels) of God.

It is another take on the subject.  May be right or wrong.   It is not a critical issue.  Either way, he loses.

Edited July 28, 2018 by OldCoot

[Marilyn C]

20 hours ago, Last Daze said:

No worries there Marilyn.

Interesting points you bring up.  I never considered Lucifer a king and priest before.  I'm pretty sure I know where you're going with that but I'll let you unfold it.

What all do you know about the "stones of fire" that Lucifer walked in the midst of?  Do you consider them other angels?

I think that the abundance of Lucifer's trading involved recruiting other angels to assist in his rebellion.  He would offer positions of influence in exchange for allegiance in his new "order."  Similar corruption is rife in politics.  Wonder where that notion came from?

I'm with you so far.  

Hi Last Daze,

Great, seems we are `travelling` well on this `Direct Statements, journey. BTW we may be off road and off internet tomorrow and not sure when back on, as we are going further down the West. But I have written my notes for Direct Statements further on, so I know where I`m going with this. Now I just need to work through with you as to what we agree on.

Now aside, I believe the `fiery stones,` represents the fire of God, His holiness, (Heb. 12: 29) Only Lucifer could go that `close` to God to present the worship of the other angels.

As to Lucifer offering positions of influence, God stepped in as soon as He `saw` rebellion in Lucifer`s heart. The trading was to do with Lucifer accepting the praises and worship from the other angels, for himself and not giving it to God.

 

OK, On with our Direct Statements.

So we see from the last scriptures that Lucifer was cast out of the highest created realm & lost his rulership position. Now we ask ourselves, `Will God leave this position vacant or give it to an angel or angels?

Rulership in the highest created realm will not be vacant as God said they were for Himself, (& thus for those he appoints under Him.)

Angels will certainly not be given this rulership again.

`For He has not put the world to come of which we speak, in subjection to angels.` (Heb. 2: 5)

Direct Statements.

1.God will not put angels in charge of the world to come.

 

So will God give any other being this highest rulership position?

`God, ……has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed  heir of all things…..` (Heb. 1: 2)

2. God has appointed His Son heir of all things, (which are in heaven and on earth, with focus on rulership - Col. 1: 16)

 

`…having become so much better than the angels, as He by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.` (Heb. 1:4)

Name - Gk. Word `onoma,` authority.   

3. The Son of God has more authority then angels.

 

Looking at the precious stones, (symbolic of High priest) we see that Lucifer had 9 and the Lord has 12.  (Note Israel`s High Priest is a type of the Lord`s High Priestly role).

The 3 different precious stones show distinctly the Lord`s superiority to angels, (10, 11 12)

10. Chrysoprase – Manassah –`forgiveness`          

11. Jacinth – Ephraim  - `doubly fruitful.`

12. Amethyst – Benjamin - `At the right hand of the Father.`   

Christ at the Father`s right hand gives forgiveness & blessing.

                (The Stones – Ex: 28: 17 – 21,     The Tribes – Num. 10: 14 – 27, 

               The Meanings – Gen. 29: 32, 30: 1 – 24,   35: 18

                  & Prophecies - Deut. 33)

 

A lot more to write upon but this will be enough to digest for now.

Blessings, Marilyn.

[Last Daze]

On 7/29/2018 at 3:50 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Great, seems we are `travelling` well on this `Direct Statements, journey. BTW we may be off road and off internet tomorrow and not sure when back on, as we are going further down the West. But I have written my notes for Direct Statements further on, so I know where I`m going with this. Now I just need to work through with you as to what we agree on.

Now aside, I believe the `fiery stones,` represents the fire of God, His holiness, (Heb. 12: 29) Only Lucifer could go that `close` to God to present the worship of the other angels.

As to Lucifer offering positions of influence, God stepped in as soon as He `saw` rebellion in Lucifer`s heart. The trading was to do with Lucifer accepting the praises and worship from the other angels, for himself and not giving it to God.

 

OK, On with our Direct Statements.

So we see from the last scriptures that Lucifer was cast out of the highest created realm & lost his rulership position. Now we ask ourselves, `Will God leave this position vacant or give it to an angel or angels?

Rulership in the highest created realm will not be vacant as God said they were for Himself, (& thus for those he appoints under Him.)

Angels will certainly not be given this rulership again.

`For He has not put the world to come of which we speak, in subjection to angels.` (Heb. 2: 5)

Direct Statements.

1.God will not put angels in charge of the world to come.

 

So will God give any other being this highest rulership position?

`God, ……has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed  heir of all things…..` (Heb. 1: 2)

2. God has appointed His Son heir of all things, (which are in heaven and on earth, with focus on rulership - Col. 1: 16)

 

`…having become so much better than the angels, as He by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.` (Heb. 1:4)

Name - Gk. Word `onoma,` authority.   

3. The Son of God has more authority then angels.

 

Looking at the precious stones, (symbolic of High priest) we see that Lucifer had 9 and the Lord has 12.  (Note Israel`s High Priest is a type of the Lord`s High Priestly role).

The 3 different precious stones show distinctly the Lord`s superiority to angels, (10, 11 12)

10. Chrysoprase – Manassah –`forgiveness`          

11. Jacinth – Ephraim  - `doubly fruitful.`

12. Amethyst – Benjamin - `At the right hand of the Father.`   

Christ at the Father`s right hand gives forgiveness & blessing.

                (The Stones – Ex: 28: 17 – 21,     The Tribes – Num. 10: 14 – 27, 

               The Meanings – Gen. 29: 32, 30: 1 – 24,   35: 18

                  & Prophecies - Deut. 33)

 

A lot more to write upon but this will be enough to digest for now.

Blessings, Marilyn.

Okay, I'm with you on the Hebrews verses.

[Marilyn C]

21 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Okay, I'm with you on the Hebrews verses.

Hi Last Daze,

 

I thought I`d do a summary and also an indication as to where I am heading so we don`t `lose` our way.

 

God the Father purposed that His Son would bring all things together. The `all things` are in heaven and on the earth with the focus on rulership. The purposes were revealed to the OT Prophets.

The OT Prophets spoke of an angel, Lucifer, who was given a rulership position as a kingpriest in the highest realm of the created order. Due to pride he was cast out of there. No other angel will be given rulership in that realm. However God the Father has appointed and anointed His Son as the heir of `all things, ` focussing on rulership in every realm.

 

Points to be discussed, (with Direct Statements).

1. Where is Christ now?

2. Do we read of Christ`s public investiture with all authority and power in the highest created order?

3. When will that take place?

4. And more details leading to the timing of the rapture/catching away.

 

Are we tracking right, so far, bro? Marilyn.

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

I thought I`d do a summary and also an indication as to where I am heading so we don`t `lose` our way.

God the Father purposed that His Son would bring all things together. The `all things` are in heaven and on the earth with the focus on rulership. The purposes were revealed to the OT Prophets.

The OT Prophets spoke of an angel, Lucifer, who was given a rulership position as a kingpriest in the highest realm of the created order. Due to pride he was cast out of there. No other angel will be given rulership in that realm. However God the Father has appointed and anointed His Son as the heir of `all things, ` focussing on rulership in every realm.

Points to be discussed, (with Direct Statements).

1. Where is Christ now?

2. Do we read of Christ`s public investiture with all authority and power in the highest created order?

3. When will that take place?

4. And more details leading to the timing of the rapture/catching away.

Are we tracking right, so far, bro? Marilyn.

So far, so good.

[Marilyn C]

17 hours ago, Last Daze said:

So far, so good.

Hi Last Daze,

So, so far, so good there bro. Now to the next few scriptures to do with - Where is Christ now?

`God…raised Him, (Christ) from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)

`The Son….when He had Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name, (authority) than they.` (Heb. 1: 3 & 4)

 

Direct Statements.

1. God the Father placed His Son in authority next to Himself.

2. This authority is far above all other authorities in this age or the one to come.

3. This exaltation of the Lord Jesus Christ came about after He had purged our sins, died and rose again.

 

`The Lord, (God the Father) said to my lord, (Christ), “ Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool.” (Ps. 110: 1)

4. The Lord Jesus Christ will remain next to the Father till His enemies are under His feet.

5. `Your footstool,` under Christ`s feet, is under His dominion, and ready for judgment.

 

regards,, Marilyn.

 

[Last Daze]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

So, so far, so good there bro. Now to the next few scriptures to do with - Where is Christ now?

`God…raised Him, (Christ) from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)

`The Son….when He had Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name, (authority) than they.` (Heb. 1: 3 & 4)

 

Direct Statements.

1. God the Father placed His Son in authority next to Himself.

2. This authority is far above all other authorities in this age or the one to come.

3. This exaltation of the Lord Jesus Christ came about after He had purged our sins, died and rose again.

 

`The Lord, (God the Father) said to my lord, (Christ), “ Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool.” (Ps. 110: 1)

4. The Lord Jesus Christ will remain next to the Father till His enemies are under His feet.

5. `Your footstool,` under Christ`s feet, is under His dominion, and ready for judgment.

regards,, Marilyn.

Okay.

[Larry 2]

On 7/2/2018 at 9:15 AM, Last Daze said:

At its core, the pretrib rapture teaches an entitlement for a privileged few believers. 

• And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:16-17

It's clear from this verse that the judgment / wrath of God doesn't begin until the sixth seal is opened.  This takes place after the time of great tribulation when believers are martyred for rejecting the mark and the image. 

Good morning Brother Last Daze.  That said, I'm assuming you believe that any present with Jesus in scripture prior to Rev 6:16-17 are not pre-trib saints?

On 7/2/2018 at 9:15 AM, Last Daze said:

Why does the pretrib teach that believers will escape that time of tribulation?  

Who are the twenty-four elders & four living ones with Jesus in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6? How do they get there prior to the seals being opened? Aren't they part of the Church? The living ones are even associated with Jesus in the opening of the seals in Rev 6:1, Rev 6:3, Rev 6:4, & Rev 6:7. Are they priviledged, or just written in for effect? 

Who is Jesus' angel? 

Thanks.

[Last Daze]

34 minutes ago, Larry 2 said:

Who are the twenty-four elders & four living ones with Jesus in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6? How do they get there prior to the seals being opened? Aren't they part of the Church? The living ones are even associated with Jesus in the opening of the seals in Rev 6:1, Rev 6:3, Rev 6:4, & Rev 6:7. Are they priviledged, or just written in for effect? 

Who is Jesus' angel? 

Thanks.

Tell me, where was Jesus when this question was asked:

• And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:2-3

 

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

`The Lord, (God the Father) said to my lord, (Christ), “ Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool.” (Ps. 110: 1)

4. The Lord Jesus Christ will remain next to the Father till His enemies are under His feet.

5. `Your footstool,` under Christ`s feet, is under His dominion, and ready for judgment.

One small note to make here.  After Jesus' death and resurrection, He was given all authority in heaven and on earth.  Matthew 28:18

He has dominion over all things now although He is not fully exercising that authority.  His enemies are already under His dominion, however, they're not quite ready for judgment yet.  Is that how you see it?