The timing of the 6th seal

[Heleadethme]

13 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

And the first 7 English Translations had it as DEPARTURE, not a Falling Away. You guys follow the English translators way to faithful, put in the grunt work, Satan will use every trick in the book to deceive us. The Passage is about the "GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO Christ" (Rapture) not the FAITH. Its obvious the KJV translators were taking a SWIPE at Roman Catholicism with that bad translation.

Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500's — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1100 years.

 

 

Brother, I don't think that can be what it means in that verse (2 Thess. 2:3).....because it is addressing the day of the return of the Lord and rapture...the people were afraid that they had missed it and Paul was saying that the falling away and son of perdition had to be revealed first, so he was telling them not to worry that they had missed it since those things had not happened yet.  It wouldn't make sense if he was saying "don't worry that you have missed the rapture because the rapture has to happen first".

Also......since Israel is our ensample......the church follows the same pattern as ancient Israel....when Israel forsook the Lord, His glory departed and the people were ultimately taken captive..........and I fear that is happening to the church in these last days (except for a remnant).  With the departure of His glory (Holy Spirit grieved), other spirits are invading and coming into the vacuum to take the people captive (mystery Babylon).

Too much studying can lead us astray......this is why Solomon said what he did about it.  Better to lean on the Lord and not on our own understanding, and I find that He keeps things pretty simple.  That's a good thing for me, because I can't handle too many complications, I get overwhelmed easily, and that doesn't get any better as I get older, lol. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Heleadethme

[Revelation Man]

52 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

The analogy of the Jewish wedding is very beautiful and speaks so well of these truths, thank you for sharing it.

I am not sure how everything fits, or the timing of it all, but there is another analogy that I think you will enjoy....that of Jacob and His two brides....Jacob and Leah.  He worked to win one bride (Rachel), but received another bride (Leah) instead (Gentile church).  Then He had to labour another seven years in order to gain the one He originally wanted (Israel).  See Genesis 29 and onward.

And see how Rachel and Leah are both referred to in the book of Ruth, which is a book telling a living parable in type.....about a Gentile (church) restoring a Son to her Jewish Mother-in-Law (Israel):

Rth 4:11

And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel (church in type): and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem

I wonder if the seven further years of Jacob's labour to win Rachel has to do with the tribulation period and harvesting of Jewish souls by the persecuted church during that time...?

Actually I left about a 1/3 of the article by an UNKNOWN AUTHOR out of the above post. Its actually about the TWO-BRIDES, Leah and Rachel and the Seven Feasts and how they match up with the HISTORY OF ALL MANKIND, including the history Gentile Church and Israel.

Google The Jewish Wedding Pattern Luck 8:10:  and this should come up, and you can get the full lesson. It basically points towards a Pre Trib Rapture but its much more than that. If you see this you will know you are in the Right place.

The Wedding Pattern

The Lord gave Israel seven feasts in Leviticus 23. The Lord refers to the feasts as appointed times (mowed – Strong’s H4150). Mowed means an appointed time, a specific time. Our Heavenly Father knows the End from the Beginning, and the seven specific appointed times of the seven feasts give us an outline of His overall plan and I believe that some appointed times have been, and all will be prophetically fulfilled.

Within the Word of God is the pattern of the Church as the Bride of Christ (hereafter noted as Church) being wed to Jesus, and it is preserved to this day in the practice of the traditional Jewish wedding (hereafter noted as Jewish Wedding). This is not to say that the Church has replaced Israel in the Lord’s plan; quite the opposite. Please see Romans 11:11-18, and 11:25-26.

There are two brides found in Scripture, and Rachel and Leah show us this. Please see Leah, the Bride, and Leah's Children.

When I first realized the connection between the feasts and the steps of the wedding, I was troubled by the Fall Feasts. Although "Trumpets" is a favorite feast for those of us listening for the trumpet of the Lord, I could not clearly in my mind make these feasts fit the Church. The Fall Feasts seem to point to the people Israel. Therefore, when I realized there were two different brides which would be dealt with in separate manners, the pieces seemed to fit together.

First, the Lord chose a people (Israel) that would be His bride, His wife. Several times in the Old Testament the Lord describes Israel as His wife. It all began when the Lord chose Abraham and promised him that his descendants would be a great and numerous people. But at Mount Sinai the chosen wife became adulterous and worshipped the Golden Calf. Time and again, through the prophets, the Lord called for Israel to return to Him.

Finally, the Lord told Israel,

"I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.” - Isaiah 65:1

Praise His name, the Lord turned to the Gentiles. In the New Testament the Church, composed of Gentiles and Jews, is also described as the Bride of the Lord Jesus, the second bride of Scripture. The Bible shows us these two brides in the same manner and pattern as the Jewish wedding, and the Jewish wedding fits the themes of the seven appointed times given by the Lord.

The Lord gave the Children of Israel three Spring Feasts in Leviticus 23:4-14, Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. Here is how they were fulfilled:

Passover - Jesus paid the price for our sins when He died on the Cross. Jesus was the Lamb of God. (John 1:29) Jesus was the Passover Lamb.

Firstfruits - The day we recognize as Resurrection Sunday is the Jewish Feast of Firstfruits. Jesus was the Firstfruits of the grave. (First Corinthians 15:20)

Unleavened Bread - According to Scripture, “Passover Week” is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Leavening is figurative of sin; Jesus was “unleavened,” without sin. Jesus paid the price at the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

There is a thread of continuity that flows through the seven feasts, or appointed times, first given by the Lord. Here are the steps taken in completing the Jewish wedding and its application to the wedding of the Church to the Lord Jesus, followed by how this ties to the seven appointed feasts of Israel:

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of Firstfruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God.

The Spring Feasts have all been fulfilled.

Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22.

Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to the Church.

 

You are on the right track with the Two Brides, thus is very deep. In Leviticus 23 God tells all of History.

A quick Synopsis below to gain your interest of what in the Article.

 

Three Spring Feasts Jesus Fulfilled that Jesus fulfilled already.

1.) Feast Passover (We are protected by his blood)

2.) Feast of First-fruits ( Jesus was the First-fruits from the Grave)

3.) Feast Unleavened Bread ( Jesus was without Sin)

 

Summer Harvest is all alone on the Calendar 

4.) FEAST OF PENTECOST ( This is the Church Age, we are now in the Church Age, we are Harvesting Souls for the Sower, we are the body. This Feast is ALL ALONE on the Calendar. The Harvest ENDS when the Feast of Trumpet starts, thus THE LAST TRUMP ends the Harvest. Thus the Church Age ends at the LAST TRUMP !! The Church Age is a 2000 some odd year period in which Israel is as Dead Men's Bones unto God  because of their sins. )

 

Fall Feasts that will shortly be Fulfilled by Jesus after the Church has been Raptured.

5.) Feast of Trumpets ( The Trumpets NEVER DO ANYTHING, they just make announcements, the Trump blows and God ends the Church Age (Harvest) and Jesus calls the Church to Heaven to Marry the Lamb. Now guess who is back on Gods Time Clock? That's right Israel, its the 70th Week, Israel has to REPENT/ATONE Before the 70th week ends, so says the Daniel 9:24-27 prophetic uttering. WHATS NEXT.......ATONEMENT OF COURSE......)

6.) Feast of Atonement ( Israel REPENTS or Atones for her Harlotry, she turns back unto God  as we see in Zechariah 12:10, Malachi 4:5-6, Zechariah 13:1 etc. etc. etc. So The History if Israel......then the Gentile Church.......then Israel in the END TIMES are all foretold by God in the Feasts of Leviticus 23. )

7.) Feast of Tabernacle ( Tabernacle means to DWELL with God, and Israel must REPENT/ATONE before they can Dwell with God, they repent, the Messiah returns and SAVES Israel !! Jesus rules from Jerusalem, on earth for 1000 years, So God DWELLS with Israel. ) 

All of this is woven in with the Two-Brides......It shows a Pre Tribulation Rapture. Of course I already understood that via Rev. ch. 19. 

Give it a look, pretty cool Article.

 

[Revelation Man]

16 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Brother, I don't think that can be what it means in that verse (2 Thess. 2:3).....because it is addressing the day of the return of the Lord and rapture...the people were afraid that they had missed it and Paul was saying that the falling away and son of perdition had to be revealed first, so he was telling them not to worry that they had missed it since those things had not happened yet.  It wouldn't make sense if he was saying "don't worry that you have missed the rapture because the rapture has to happen first".

Also......since Israel is our ensample......the church follows the same pattern as ancient Israel....when Israel forsook the Lord, His glory departed and the people were ultimately taken captive..........and I fear that is happening to the church in these last days (except for a remnant).  With the departure of His glory (Holy Spirit grieved), other spirits are invading and coming into the vacuum to take the people captive (mystery Babylon).

Too much studying can lead us astray......this is why Solomon said what he did about it.  Better to lean on the Lord and not on our own understanding, and I find that He keeps things pretty simple.  That's a good thing for me, because I can't handle too many complications, I get overwhelmed easily, and that doesn't get any better as I get older, lol. 

Its actually addressing the Wrath of God (a 3.5 year period of Gods Wrath) brother, thus they FEARED that were in the Day of Christ [the Lord]. Why would they FEAR Jesus' Return ? The Day of the Lord is Gods Wrath, not the day Jesus Returns. WATCH:

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

So what would Paul have to tell them, HEY GUYS, don't fear the coming of Jesus........NO !!! Hes saying HEY GUYS, no matter what ANYONE TELLS YOU, do not be TROUBLED or SHAKEN UP, fearing that the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath) has come upon you ......DON'T FEAR.....because we beseech (ask, implore) you via the GATHERING TOGETHER (Rapture) unto the Lord, that you NOT FEAR THIS...........Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath) falling upon you.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (Church Departs), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So Paul is saying let no one fool you into thinking you are going to go through the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath), for THAT DAY (Gods Wrath) can not come UNTIL TWO THINGS HAPPEN............The Church must Depart First...........then that Man of Sin (Anti-Christ) must be REVEALED or goes forth to Conquer, which is the very First Seal !! Thus HE BEGINS Gods Wrath !! 

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

So Paul had already told them about this when he was with them, that's why his letter is not DETAILED, it was never meant to be Scripture or it would have been more detailed, IMHO. Now we know WHAT WITHHOLDETH ---- the Church with the Holy Spirit working through it can not be OVERCOME !! Jesus told Peter that the Gates of hell can not prevail against the Church !! Thus we must be removed before this Anti-Christ can COME FORTH. The Church delivered the Mortal Wound to Rome..........when we are Raptured the Beast can then be REBORN. 

Many people need to read something other that the KJV, I can understand the KJV as I read it and use Greek translations, many people can't see through the Old English. 

And they did not think that Paul had missed the Rapture Sister, COME ON !! They wrote unto Paul. They thought they were in Gods Wrath, not understanding the timing of the Rapture throws everything off, thus its Satan's work to deceive us. 

The Day of the Lord is Gods Wrath !!

Edited August 21, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Last Daze]

32 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Brother, I don't think that can be what it means in that verse (2 Thess. 2:3).....because it is addressing the day of the return of the Lord and rapture...the people were afraid that they had missed it and Paul was saying that the falling away and son of perdition had to be revealed first, so he was telling them not to worry that they had missed it since those things had not happened yet.  It wouldn't make sense if he was saying "don't worry that you have missed the rapture because the rapture has to happen first".

Precisely that.  Too many people it seems choose to look for alternate word meanings when a passage of scripture doesn't fit into their understanding, even if it means that they have to disregard the greater context.  Interpreting apostasia as the rapture makes no sense in the context of what Paul is saying, as you've pointed out, which is why I've never given that view any serious consideration.

[Heleadethme]

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Its actually addressing the Wrath of God (a 3.5 year period of Gods Wrath) brother, thus they FEARED that were in the Day of Christ [the Lord]. Why would they FEAR Jesus' Return ? The Day of the Lord is Gods Wrath, not the day Jesus Returns. WATCH:

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

So what would Paul have to tell them, HE GUYS, don't fear the coming of Jesus........NO !!! Hes saying HE GUYS, no matter what ANYONE TELLS YOU, d o not be TROUBLED or SHAKEN UP, fearing that the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath) has come upon you ......DON'T FEAR.....because we beseech (ask, implore) you via the GATHERING TOGETHER ( Rapture) unto the Lord, that you NOT FEAR THIS...........Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath) falling upon you.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (Church Departs), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So Paul is saying let no one fool you into thinking you are going to go through the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath), for THAT DAY (Gods Wrath) can not come UNTIL TWO THINGS HAPPEN............The Church must Depart First...........then that Man of Sin (Anti-Christ) must be REVEALED or goes forth to Conquer, which is the very First Seal !! Thus HE BEGINS Gods Wrath !! 

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

So Paul had already told them about this when he was with them, that's why his letter is not DETAILED, it was never meant to be Scripture or it would have been more detailed, IMHO. Now we know WHAT WITHHOLDETH ---- the Church with the Holy Spirit working through it can not be OVERCOME !! Jesus told Peter that the Gates of hell can not prevail against the Church !! Thud we must be removed before this Anti-Christ can COME FORTH. The Church delivered the Mortal Wound to Rome..........when we are Raptured the Beast can then be REBORN. 

Many people need to read something other that the KJV, I can understand the KJV s I read it and use Greek translations, many people can't see through the Old English. 

And they did no think that Paul had missed the Rapture brother, COME ON !! They wrote unto Paul. They thought they were in Gods Wrath, not understanding the timing of the Rapture throws everything off, thus its Satan's work to deceive us. 

The Day of the Lord is Gods Wrath !!

Okay brother thanks......maybe I better give this a re-think.....at least the part about them thinking the day of Lord was at hand.  I can't give this my undivided attention right now....hopefully soon, Lord willing.  (I'm a sister by the way.)

[Dennis1209]

On 7/15/2018 at 8:38 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

the 7th seal has to be prior

The way I see the lay out of the judgments are: The first set of 7 judgments (seals) are caused by man through war. The second set of judgments instigated by Satan and his wrath. The third, most severe and final set of judgments comes from the wrath of God. I'm a little confused on your chronological question? But are you taking into account the parenthetical chapters in Revelation? 

On 7/15/2018 at 8:38 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

Could it be that "stars" in the sixth seal are fallen angels at the AofD

My personal belief based on the description and study, is these "stars" are either a nuclear exchange, astroid / meteors.  All would likely cause the description by large amounts of dust in the atmosphere blocking a percentage of light from the 2nd heaven. The events of the first 1/3 of the tribulation seem to be invoked by man, as outlined above. If that is so, I would lean to a nuclear war as the cause of Rev. 6: 12 - 13. Also a nuclear exchange or meteor impact could easily cause a massive earthquake(s), and earthquakes trigger volcanic activity, and a lot of volcanic activity causes billions of tons of ash into the upper atmosphere. 

To summarize: It's all speculation and interpretation on my part. But one thing is for certain, it will be devastating and doesn't happen very often.

[Heb 13:8]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

The way I see the lay out of the judgments are: The first set of 7 judgments (seals) are caused by man through war. The second set of judgments instigated by Satan and his wrath. The third, most severe and final set of judgments comes from the wrath of God. I'm a little confused on your chronological question? But are you taking into account the parenthetical chapters in Revelation? 

Hi Dennis. I'm having difficulty understanding the timing of the 6th and 7th seal. If the 6th seal is in reference to the second coming and not mid trib, then how does that make sense if the trumpets and bowls haven't been released yet at second coming.

Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

Quote

My personal belief based on the description and study, is these "stars" are either a nuclear exchange, astroid / meteors.  All would likely cause the description by large amounts of dust in the atmosphere blocking a percentage of light from the 2nd heaven. The events of the first 1/3 of the tribulation seem to be invoked by man, as outlined above. If that is so, I would lean to a nuclear war as the cause of Rev. 6: 12 - 13. Also a nuclear exchange or meteor impact could easily cause a massive earthquake(s), and earthquakes trigger volcanic activity, and a lot of volcanic activity causes billions of tons of ash into the upper atmosphere. 

To summarize: It's all speculation and interpretation on my part. But one thing is for certain, it will be devastating and doesn't happen very often.

I guess that would explain Zech 14:12. Good interpretation.

[Revelation Man]

15 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Precisely that.  Too many people it seems choose to look for alternate word meanings when a passage of scripture doesn't fit into their understanding, even if it means that they have to disregard the greater context.  Interpreting apostasia as the rapture makes no sense in the context of what Paul is saying, as you've pointed out, which is why I've never given that view any serious consideration.

It seems that is what the KJV did, all other versions understood it to be the Church Departing. Of course those who can't see the Raptures correct timing don't want to see it. The passage isn't even that hard to be honest.

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Okay brother thanks......maybe I better give this a re-think.....at least the part about them thinking the day of Lord was at hand.  I can't give this my undivided attention right now....hopefully soon, Lord willing.  (I'm a sister by the way.)

OK Sister, yea I see that now that I look. God teaches those who seek, I have seen many who can't be taught. I am taught new things by God daily. When I was called to preach 30 years ago I was also called unto prophecy, then for 25 years (after I was told LOUDLY in a Vision the Man of Sin is here/Anti-Christ) I seemed to be stuck in the mud after awhile. So I prayed and the Holy Spirit told me I needed to LOSE the Men's traditions, then I could receive of God. 

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Hi Dennis. I'm having difficulty understanding the timing of the 6th and 7th seal. If the 6th seal is in reference to the second coming and not mid trib, then how does that make sense if the trumpets and bowls haven't been released yet at second coming.

Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

The 6th Seal is not the Second Coming, some teach that in error, seeing the 6th Seal Earthquake, the Trumpet Earthquake and Vial Earthquake as all one event, its not, so don't sweat it. The 7th Seal has ALL the 7 Trumpets in it, thus Jesus also releases the 7 Trumpets. Then we have 4 Judgments and THREE Woes. Woe 1 is the Demon hordes, Woe 2 is an Angelic Army of God delivering Plagues. Woe 3 is is ALL 7 VIALS.......Thus the Vials come from the 7th Trumpet and the Trump comes from the 7th Vial. Thus Jesus opening the Seals releases all of these Plagues & Wrath.

Rev. 1-3 is the Church Age. Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church in Heaven PRE the Seals beg opened. Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9 and [15] and 16 are the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments. Rev. 20, 21 and 22 finish off the book of Revelation's time-line. 

Thus Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations, not REAL TIME EVENTS. For instance, Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 all start at the Midway point, which is Rev. ch. 6 (Anti-Christ goes forth). The key is the 1260......God gave us the 1260 to put it all together. THINK The Woman Flees the Beast foe 1260 Days in Rev. 12.......The Beast rules for 42 Months in Rev. 13........The Harlot is killed off by the 10 Kings of the Beast BUT WHY ? She is All False Religion of All Time, and in order to get the whole world to worship the Beast as the ONLY GOD what has to be done? All Religion has to be wiped out, thus the Harlot Religions are REPLACED by a False Prophet who BEASTS over Religion.......Rev. 18 also starts in Rev. ch 6, bit its Babylon (Whole World) getting hit by the Seal, Trumpet and Via Judgment/Plagues. Its what DESTROYS her Commerce !! So these Plagues, the Wrath of God last for 1260 days also.

Now in Rev. 11 we can understand via the 1260 days where the Two-witnesses show up and by juxtaposing it against the Beasts 1260 days (42 Months) we can understand their timing. The Beast comes Forth on the Day of the Lord, on the First Seal, he dies at the 7th Vial right ? So if the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, before the 7th Trumpet is blown, then the Beast and the Two-witnesses 1260 days CAN NOT PARALLEL can it ?

So this means the Two-witnesses MUST show up before the Beast shows up !! MUST !! You see how God uses this 1260 to CENTER all events where we can get our bearings sister? 

Now this below makes perfect sense, it FITS !!

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

The Day of the Lord is Gods Wrath and it begins when Jesus RELEASES the Anti-Christ to go forth Conquering, and it lasts for 1260 Days or 3.5 years. 

2 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

I guess that would explain Zech 14:12. Good interpretation.

I agree with the point you were making to him.......the STARS FALLING are the Angels (Demons) being cast out of Heaven. 

God Bless....I get started I go, go, go, LOL.

[Gibbus]

On 7/15/2018 at 9:38 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

Matt 24:29 is describing the end of the 70th week at His second coming. So if the 6th seal is also at the end of the 70th week (sun, moon, stars) as some might believe, the 7th seal has to be prior to that which makes the seals non-chronological?

Or maybe just maybe, Joel 2:31 and Rev 6:12 are on a separate time line than Matt 24:29, one at the AofD and the other at His second coming. Could it be that "stars" in the sixth seal are fallen angels at the AofD, Rev 12:4, 9? Notice in Matt 24:29 that there is no mention of a blood moon...

Joel 2:31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

Matt 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=TdhCW8TZGOiI_QaT04HAAw&q=does+the+moon+give+off+light+during+blood+moons&oq=does+the+moon+give+off+light+during+blood+moons&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1137.14238.0.14424.48.47.0.0.0.0.127.3999.36j11.47.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.44.3702.0..0j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i131i20i264k1j0i20i264k1j0i3k1j0i22i30k1j33i160k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i21k1.0.720Kj6SKJFI

- Heb

(NO to Everything, I did read a lot of answers, but, NO to the OP, NO to everything)

(We'll have to start from scratch)

GENESIS 1:16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. JOSHUA 10:13

First = Sun ... Second = Moon ... Third = Moon as Second Sun (2nd Light Constant) ... ... ... ... God says the "Third" in Revelation, but only describes Three Light sources for this Earth, no more. ("Third" Light Source = "Joseph the Blessings", "Joseph is introduced to the Tribes in Revelation, that is not a mistake)

(Debunking the SEALS and the TRUMPETS)

1. (Precursor) Jesus was Placed into the Tomb until the SEAL was removed (Problem of the SEALS, solved)

2. (Precursor) Jesus was seen Resurrected, 40 Days/40 Years, until JERUSALEM was destroyed (Problem of the TRUMPETS, solved)

(The SEALS and TRUMPETS are Debunked, now this is the real issue of implementation)

(Terrence Mckenna was abruptly, inconvenienced in 1998, that terminated my stay at the university of pennsylvania in disappointment, but before that, the "Jumping Jesus" equation was designed to "Re-Qualify" the Christian Community, but it didn't go anywhere)

1st SEAL

2nd SEAL

3rd SEAL

4th SEAL

5th SEAL

6TH SEAL = FATIMA

7th SEAL = 9/11/2001 Falling Man Moses = PRE-TRIB

ALL SEALS COMPLETED (God reveals the Lamb Slain/Tomb Open, even if Briefly)

1st Trumpet = "Third Light Source is Activated" = MID - TRIB

2nd Trumpet = 1 Year Duration

3rd Trumpet

4th Trumpet

5th Trumpet

6th Trumpet

7th Trumpet (From 2019 to 2066 = 47 Years) (49 years from 2017 - 70 to Roswell 1947)

(You are now "Re-Qualifed" as Terrence Mckenna intended ... ... ... ... after we visited the "Master Building in NYC, where the R.M. for Ray Mabus" symbols are located, we submitted a notoriety to the media, for a conference ... ... ... ... they never got back to us, but, we never re-organized, it was just the incident of his death in 1998, and my disappointment at the university of pennsylvania, that was not the course of action, that I choose ... ... ... ... science has a time and a place ... ... ... ... terrorism has been the more faithful course of exchange, for the processes of faith, as things have fell into the said circumstances)

(What you are witnessing with "Joseph the Blessings", is God's acculuminated behavior, with "Joseph the Blessing" since the passion of Jesus ... ... ... ... the dead work and dead flesh equation, of conviction, god doesn't bless, wives/eunichs/animal sacrifices/observances/ceremonies/church intercessions, to reveal the wicked generations before they die, and if your not clean, your potential dies with them also ... ... ... ... INFORMATION EXCHANGE has no value, but certain events God has revealed with Signs are the real markers for "Joseph the Blessings")

(Sometimes, you can hurt someone too much, and the expression is not what it appears to be, someone, tipped president Donald Trump off to 2019, months in advance, to plan a military exercise as he tried to approve, but was declined ..................... you had to settle for a War on Terrorism, you may have to settle for a War on Korea ..................... I intend to isolate God's Mercies, not on this earth, that means you are left with certain arguments ...................... that said ......................... we have to see what is necessary soon in the expression ........................ Terrence Mckenna is just on example of things not going well, there has been more recent examples, pointing to and perhaps, unfortunately, validating all my statements, all my claims)

Edited August 23, 2018 by Gibbus