The timing of the 6th seal

[Christine]

‘And she brought forth a man child, 
who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: 
and her child was caught up unto God, 
and to His throne.’
(Rev 12:5)  

Hello @Larry 2,

The word translated, 'male', is Gr. arsen, and is of the neuter gender, which is appropriate here, for it is He of Whom it is specially prophesied that He should rule the nations with a rod of iron (Psa 2:9)

‘Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; 
thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.’

-----------------
 ‘And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; 
a woman clothed with the sun, 
and the moon under her feet, 
and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:’
(Rev 12:1)  

* The woman of Rev.12:1, takes us back to Genesis 37, for it is the only Scripture that has anything corresponding to it.  There we read of Joseph (v.9) 'he dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brethren, and said, Behold! I have dreamed a dream more; behold, the sun, and the moon, and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.  And he told it to his father, and to his brethren; and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, what is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I, and thy mother, and thy brethen indeed come to bow ourselved to thee, to the earth' (Gen. 37:9,10.  Joseph therefore saw a similar 'sign,' and both he and his father Jacob understood it at once, and interpreted it correctly, as the sequel shows.

*These twelve stars, therefore, were the Zodiacal signs which are associated with Israel in the persons of Jacob, and the twelve Patriarchs.  These constituted and represented the whole nation in embryo.  

* Israel, is again and again compared to a woman, and a married woman, in the Old Testament (Isaiah 54 etc.,).  The Church is never so depicted.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

35 minutes ago, Christine said:

‘And she brought forth a man child, 
who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: 
and her child was caught up unto God, 
and to His throne.’
(Rev 12:5)  

Hello @Larry 2,

The word translated, 'male', is Gr. arsen, and is of the neuter gender, which is appropriate here, for it is He of Whom it is specially prophesied that He should rule the nations with a rod of iron (Psa 2:9)

‘Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; 
thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.’

-----------------
 ‘And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; 
a woman clothed with the sun, 
and the moon under her feet, 
and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:’
(Rev 12:1)  

* The woman of Rev.12:1, takes us back to Genesis 37, for it is the only Scripture that has anything corresponding to it.  There we read of Joseph (v.9) 'he dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brethren, and said, Behold! I have dreamed a dream more; behold, the sun, and the moon, and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.  And he told it to his father, and to his brethren; and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, what is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I, and thy mother, and thy brethen indeed come to bow ourselved to thee, to the earth' (Gen. 37:9,10.  Joseph therefore saw a similar 'sign,' and both he and his father Jacob understood it at once, and interpreted it correctly, as the sequel shows.

*These twelve stars, therefore, were the Zodiacal signs which are associated with Israel in the persons of Jacob, and the twelve Patriarchs.  These constituted and represented the whole nation in embryo.  

* Israel, is again and again compared to a woman, and a married woman, in the Old Testament (Isaiah 54 etc.,).  The Church is never so depicted.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

You have the origin correct sister, but it has nothing to do with a Zodiac sign. God doesn't work via the Devils understandings. The Sep. 23 event is bunk and not of God. 

[Larry 2]

46 minutes ago, Christine said:

The word translated, 'male', is Gr. arsen, and is of the neuter gender, which is appropriate here, for it is He of Whom it is specially prophesied that He should rule the nations with a rod of iron (Psa 2:9)

Hi dear Sister Christine

 

46 minutes ago, Christine said:

‘And she brought forth a man child, 
who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: 
and her child was caught up unto God, 
and to His throne.’
(Rev 12:5)  

Hello @Larry 2,

The word translated, 'male', is Gr. arsen, and is of the neuter gender, which is appropriate here, for it is He of Whom it is specially prophesied that He should rule the nations with a rod of iron (Psa 2:9)

Israel, is again and again compared to a woman, and a married woman, in the Old Testament (Isaiah 54 etc.,).  The Church is never so depicted.

Praise God!  In Christ Jesus - Chris

Hi dear Sister Christine, and thanks for your response. In my thinking you are correct referring to Ps 2:9 referring to Jesus, but notice in Rev 12:1 that John is being shown things occurring in heaven, and that in the context of hereafter of the Lord's Day according to Rev 4:1. 

And the lack of gender bias is that we could say mankind, as we read in Rev 14:4 as being redeemed from amon men.

Do you think that the five wise virgins are all women, or that the bride of Christ will not include men?

Now as to the time frame, in Rev 12:1 we see the woman in heaven, and in Rev 12:3 satan is there also, but will be cast out to the earth in Rev 12:9. Notice also that the woman is given refuge for 3 1/2 years; is this not speaking of the time of tribulation? Thanks.

God bless you sister in Christ.

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Larry 2
Original merged mine and Chris' posts together

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Diaste, Jesus comes like a thief to the world, so how does He come like a thief when nonbelievers can simply countdown to His second coming (1260, 1290, 1335 days)? or even 1260 days from the AofD? 

 

I suppose they could try but they would be incorrect. Jesus' coming isn't related to a length of time.

His coming will cut short the days of GT. If His coming was at the very end of the week then no flesh would be saved. It's to save some people alive to be translated that those days are cut short.

This is the day known only be the Father and no man, not even the Lord Jesus, knows this day.

The 5th seal tells us this  as well. There will be no vengeance for the souls under the altar until the rest of their number are killed in the same manner. Once that moment is reached, the death of the last martyr, then GT is cut short as Jesus appears, we are gathered and wrath commences. 

Again, this is the day known only to the Father, well short of 1260 days, and so no count of days will do anyone any good.

The day will only come like a thief for those in darkness, and it will come on them like a thief.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

Hi Brother Diaste, I’m using John’s description of the things being shown him from the perspective of the Lord’s Day to where he was caught in spirit. There are different appearances of saints (ranks), and of their proximity to Jesus’ throne. Some; the 24 elders are round bout the throne in Rev 4:4 and have crowns and white robes. There are some in the midst of, and round bout the throne in Rev 4:6.

Notice something here is that in Revelation Chapter Four John is at the beginning of the Lord’s Day, and in Rev 4:1 John is caught up into heaven to be shown things to be hereafter from that point of view. Previously John wrote of things past, and things which are, and here we see Jesus receiving His own throne in Rev 4:2. The vision viewpoint to be shown John from this point forward is no longer of Jesus sitting in our Father’s throne and walking among the candlesticks (churches), but actually taking that “All power and authority” given Him in Mt 28:18.

I’ll attempt to keep each segment of this short, and will only mention this one more thing and that is that at this point, the temptation to come upon all the world of Rev 3:10 (the first 3 ½ years of tribulation) has not begun which we will hopefully get to in Revelation Chapter Six, and yet these elect are with Christ; how do they get there if not caught up? Thanks.

Well, I'm going to need a clearer understanding of how you are defining "the Lord's Day".

What scripture leads you to ascertain there are ranks of saints?

What scripture defines those ranks? As in, how does scripture prove the 24 elders are saints in the context of righteous translated believers?

What elect are with Jesus? The ranks of saints you mentioned? 

First you're going to need to prove they are indeed saints.

 

[Larry 2]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Well, I'm going to need a clearer understanding of how you are defining "the Lord's Day".

Thanks for the good questions. I hope I can give answers that will be clear. I will also only answer one question per reply so as to not get one responce too long. One thought continues to come to mind and Jesus said in Rev 1:1 . . . shew His servants things which must shortly come to pass . . . (My bible says that the book of Revelation was written in 95 AD, and I know there is contention as to that being the date.)

Next I would ask where we find the term "The Lord's Day" anywhere in scripture other than Rev 1:10? We do see many references to "The Day of the Lord.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

I will attempt to define that Day of the Lord as one of judgment, and the Lord's collecting of His own, and separation of the dead from among them.

Rev 1:10 Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, . . . (Was this really Sunday as many suppose, or was John caught forward in spirit to the future time of Jesus taking the "All power" given Him in Mt 28:18? Okay I'll present testimony of others defing this Day which I believe begins with the beginning of the temptation to come upon all the world, and extending through the Millennium, and we read in 1Co 15:28.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 

The Lord's Day, or the Day of the Lord. From this future time beginning with Rev 4:1 John is shown three viewpoints.

Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

Looking up Rev 1:10 using Bible Hub, most bibles translate it using the term “The Lord’s Day.” (possibly due to the Latin Vulgate translation of the fourth century.

Exceptions were International Standard Version, and Jubilee Bible 2000 translating it as “the Day of the Lord.”
http://tyndalearchive.com

Another way of writing The Lord's Day is The Day of the Lord. From a grammatical standpoint, both are in the genitive (possessive) case and express the same meaning.

There are numerous Scriptural references to the Day of the Lord (Isaiah 2: 12-18; 13: 9; Jeremiah 46: 10; Joel 1: 15, 16; 2 Peter 3: 10). All speak of a day in which Yahweh brings destruction on the earth. It is not a quiet day of worship on the first day of the week. Read the whole Book of The Revelation. The writer has described a time of destruction. There is reference to the voice sounding like a trumpet in the passage under discussion. This is consistent with subsequent references in this book (4: 1; 8: 13; and 9: 14). John was taken in the Spirit to a great day of the future.

Two passages which are used along with the one being discussed to prove that the seventh-day Sabbath had been replaced by Sunday (the first day of the week) are Acts 20: 7 and 1 Corinthians 16: 2. Use of these, however, shows a lack of knowledge and understanding of Jewish custom. The Sabbath had not been changed to the first day of the week by Jesus. Note that Matthew 28: 1 and Hebrews 4: 9 indicate that the Sabbath was still being kept. However, both references have been mistranslated in many versions of the Scriptures. Hebrews 4 also refers to the Sabbath being kept in the future.

The first day of the week begins following the closing of the Sabbath at sundown on Saturday. Candles are used in this closing ceremony. This accounts for the lights at that meeting. Following the ceremony, it is customary to have a meal. Thus, the people had met together on the first day of the week to break bread. After this and during the night, Paul preached to the people. He did not preach all afternoon and evening on Sunday and through the early hours of Monday until morning.

Since the people, as well as Paul, were strict about observing the Sabbath, they would not be collecting money on that day. Thus, the direction was given to collect on the first day of the week, which could be on Sunday evening after the closing ceremony or all day on Monday. It was unlike the Christian churches of today that collect on the day of worship, which happens to be the first day of the week.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

The Lord's day or, the day of the Lord, is from the first day of His intent to intervene in the affairs of men beginning in Revelation 8

This will continue on thru His coming millennial kingdom of 1000 years

[Larry 2]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

What scripture leads you to ascertain there are ranks of saints?

Hi again Brother Diaste. John is shown different groups appear with Jesus. For instance the 24 elders and 4 living ones are with Jesus in heaven prior to the tribulation, and they are round bout Jesus’ throne in Rev 4:4, and in the midst, and round bout His throne in Rev 4:6. Hopefully later we can expound on the reason for their being separate and kept from the temptation to come upon all the world, but for now, long story short it comes down to faithfulness, and the word that separates many even among believers. Not every portion of the seven churches of Revelation Chapters Two & Three were promised the same rewards.

The next major group we see of the Church are those of the Great Multitude in Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

(Do you consider these of the Great Multitude to be saints of God?) They are not round bout, and/or in the midst of the throne as those of Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 were.

A third and most prominent part of the Church to be caught up to God will be the 144,000 redeemed from among men said to be the firstfruits to God and the Lamb in Rev 14:4. I must ask which men were they redeemed from? Weren’t they those of Rev 7:3 through Rev 7:8 sealed of every tribe of Israel? Notice something else about them; they stand before the throne (not in the midst of the throne), the 24 elders and the four living ones, and it is the heavenly Jerusalem of mount Sion (Heb 12:22) they have been caught up to.

Blessings again in Christ Jesus. 

[Steve Conley]

On 7/16/2018 at 1:06 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Not true. Like every word is not true. There is no pretrib 'rapture'. A nonsense concept as nothing in scripture suggests such a thing; even the word 'rapture' does not exist in scripture. How can anyone believe in a concept that is not even named in the source material?"

 

Explain this to the forum in your own words:

[1 Corinthians 51-58] [1st Thessalonians 4:13-18] 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ

Pops,

1Corinthians 15:51-58 says nothing about a catching up (rapture).

It speaks about the resurrection of the dead in Christ to immortality and the change of those who have survived the great tribulation to immortality without first dying. That was the mystery that Paul revealed, that the surviving saints (those who are alive and remain) would be changed at the time of the resurrection of the dead in Christ, they would not need to die to be made immortal. There is no harpadzo in the portion of Paul's teaching to the Corinthians that you referenced, as seen below.

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:58  Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

However, the catching up is a Biblical fact.

Paul mentions the way we are gathered to Christ in his letter to the Thessalonians. He says we are caught up. Both those who have been resurrected (those who sleep in Christ) and those who survive to Christ's parousia and are changed, are caught up together to be with the Lord. This is associated with Christ coming down from heaven, that is His arrival at His parousia.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul said that Jesus had spoken of it ("by the word of the Lord").

Jesus spoke of the resurrection at His coming. Redemption involves the resurrection, the receiving of a new body (Rom 8:23).

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Jesus said that, at His coming, He would send the angels to gather together His elect.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

At His coming, the dead in Christ shall hear His voice (a shout). A shout to raise the dead and a trumpet blast to gather us unto Christ.

Joh 5:25  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26  For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus said that those who believe and remain alive shall never die. He is the resurrection. The resurrection of the just takes place at His parousia (1Thes 4:15).

Joh 11:24  Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

All praise, honour and glory be unto the Lamb

[Larry 2]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

What scripture defines those ranks? As in, how does scripture prove the 24 elders are saints in the context of righteous translated believers?

What elect are with Jesus? The ranks of saints you mentioned? 

First you're going to need to prove they are indeed saints.

Hi Diaste. There are basically three different groups shown to John in Revelation, and they are the Church, Israel that will be saved when , and unbelievers which will ultimately have their place in the lake of fire.

The Church is the first to be judged. Peter said it this way in 1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God. That ensuing judgment is shown to John in Revelation Chapters Two & Three; its consequences forthcoming, and Jesus’ reward for our faithfulness presented to us when we see Him. Rev 22:12.

Now all that call upon the name of the Lord are believers (Rom 10:13), and white robes are a distinguishing factor of a believer showing their having been washed in the blood of the Lamb; we read of the Great Multitude’s righteousness in Rev 7:14.

The 24 elders are shown with white robes in Rev 4:4, and the 144,000 are said to have been redeemed.

In Rev 14:4  . .  These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. And in Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Hope this helps brother in Jesus’ name.