counterfeit

[Blood Bought 1953]

5 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, Yes a comment: Jesus stated the only sign He would give to the mockers  of Him, the scribes and Pharisees, was the sign of Jonah. His audience knew the sign of Jonah. To Jesus, who is God, the sign is not just allegorical, it is fact as is His own sign of Jonah - his death, burial, descendence,  resurrection, and ascension to be the first fruit of many to come.

 So to present Jonah as allegory is to deny Jesus as God who paid the price of our sin so that many may be saved, all those given to Him by God the Father.  And therefore  the very faith of Jesus  is then just that a faith without basis, just  a nice thought and not historical fact to hang one's whole existence upon.

 

We supposedly worship a God that spoke and “ nothing became everything” yet some have trouble believing a great fish could swallow a man ? Let’s continue down that road and Call the story of Balaams talking donkey a lie or the parting of the Red Sea was just a pretend story.Lets just take our pick . Maybe the resurrection of Christ was just a spiritual one .If every God-breathed Word of the Bible is not true—— toss it in the trash.If Jesus claimed that Jonah was swallowed by a goldfish , you would be wise to believe it. It’s all or nothing.

 

[Christine]

@Yowm, @MeaCulpa3, @frienduffthaylorde, @Heleadethme, @Adstar, @Blood Bought1953.
@Cletus, @Willie T, @HisiFirst, @GandalfTheWise, @Wayne222, @Neighbor, 

‘Therefore, my beloved brethren, 
be ye steadfast, 
unmoveable, 
always abounding 
in the work of the Lord, 
forasmuch as ye know 
that your labour 
is not in vain 
in the Lord.’
(1 Cor. 15:58)  
 

Thank you all very much for responding to the issues raised in the OP, I appreciated all that was said.

In Chris Jesus
Chris

Edited August 6, 2018 by Christine

[MeaCulpa3]

20 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

Jesus said Jonas was the days in the belly of the fish the son of man would be in the heart of the earth. It is clearly a real account of what happen to Jonah. Just like Jesus was really dead three days and came back to life.

We might have to agree to disagree. I don’t believe that just because Jesus referenced the story means that it’s actual, literal history. If you do, I respect that, but I disagree. 

[Sevenseas]

On 8/3/2018 at 7:51 PM, Christine said:

Hello there,

The other day I went to a Bible study in a local Church.  The study was one of a series of studies in the book of Jonah.  

Except for the repeated comment that it did not matter what one believed concerning the story of Jonah being swallowed by a big fish, that what mattered was the truth it was intended to convey, I enjoyed the study. It was not in depth, being largely anecdotal, which would offend nobody.

I was not happy about that repeated statement because our Lord Jesus Christ Himself endorsed what happened to Jonah: so that alone elevated the record of the events that took place in Jonah's life to absolute Truth;  therefore to fudge it in order to make it palatable to the unbelieving, regardless of the 'truth' it revealed was wrong, and sent up warning signals in my mind regarding the ministry I was sat under.

Then, at the end, I was informed that the study of the book of Jonah was being engaged in by churches around Britain, organised by,'The World Council of Churches'. Again, I heard those warning bells.

Later, on another day, I switched on the radio to radio 4, and happened to tune into a broadcast of the day's, 'Act of Worship', and once again the message delivered was from the book of Jonah. Indicating, to me, that this was all part of the unifying influence of that same organisation. 

* The believer in the Lord Jesus Christ has a 'unity' to 'keep', which is of God's making, (Eph.4) and any attempt on the part of man to create a unity of their own making worries me.

* The word, 'counterfeit', was on my mind as I began writing this, which is the strategy of the enemy of our souls, it being his object to deceive. Only while pondering this, did this come to mind to share with you, so obviously, in my mind, the two thoughts are linked.

Any comment?

In Christ Jesus

Chris

well, if we are going to use 'metaphor' or 'illustration' or 'story' as a fall back position, where do we draw the line?

seems Jesus spoke in parables but made it plain it was a parable

I think your sense about the study was spot on.  I would be very careful about those who say this or that is only a 'story' to illustrate a greater principle or however it was put

great question by the way

[Debp]

On 8/4/2018 at 1:58 PM, HisFirst said:

Jesus said : 

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Matthew 12 v 40 NKJV

* That's pretty plain language that Jesus used.

Its very clear that Jesus was referring to an event that DID happen.

 

 

 

 

On 8/5/2018 at 1:43 PM, Wayne222 said:

Jesus said Jonas was the days in the belly of the fish the son of man would be in the heart of the earth. It is clearly a real account of what happen to Jonah. Just like Jesus was really dead three days and came back to life.

I believe the Bible is true.... everything in it.   As the above posters point out, Jesus vouches for the story of Jonah being in the great fish as being a true event.

You either believe God's word or you don't.  When people start to say something isn't true in the Bible, that is a really bad sign.   I once had a pastor tell me the Bible has been proven wrong in many ways by Science!!!   So why is he still a pastor?    Because that is simply his career, the way he makes his paycheck.

Btw, if you ever want to hear a sermon where God, Jesus, and the Bible are not mentioned at all, go listen to him.  Sorry to say he's still "preaching"....I got out of there when he made that horrible remark about the Bible...but others in his congregation think he is wonderful.   They don't know the Bible at all and are being led astray by him.

[enoob57]

On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 9:31 AM, MeaCulpa3 said:

Something doesn’t necessarily have to be literally true to be true. I don’t believe the story of Jonah and the big fish actually happened in a literal way, just like I don’t believe in a literal 6-day creation or that everything in the book of Job literally happened. But that doesn’t mean those stories are false. 

These stories are not meant to be historical accounts. They are meant to be allegorical, or stories told which convey truths but not in a literal, historical way. So to take them as literal, historical truth would be against what their authors intended.

There is nothing hermeneutically to suggest what you are claiming here... in fact it is opinion without text support!

On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 1:25 PM, MeaCulpa3 said:

It isn’t about believing in God. I know God is CAPABLE of doing such things, so I’m not denying that it’s possible. But, even though God COULD have done it, doesn’t necessarily mean He DID. 

I believe God COULD have created the Earth in 6 days if He wanted to. But I don’t believe He DID. It’s not that I think He’s not powerful enough, it’s that I recognize that for some reason or another He chose to do it another way. 

I can assure you that I most certainly believe in an infinite God who is capable of everything.

There are clues which point to a story being allegorical. 

1. There is no historical evidence. (Of course, this doesn’t definitively prove that it’s allegory, it might just mean we haven’t found the proof yet.)

2. The early Christians took it allegorically. (And I can point you toward many examples where early Christians took certains tories allegorically.)

3. The language used in the story is poetic language. (Like in the creation account in Genesis, the repetition of “and he saw that it was good” is poetic language, making it more likely that the author intended to write a poem or allegory instead of history.)

The Bible doesn’t just come out and say, “oh, hey, that story was just an allegory”, but that doesn’t mean we can’t understand that the story is an allegory based on biblical and historical clues. 

There is always a chance that I’m wrong and an event in the Bible that I think is merely allegory may actually be literal history. But for now I’m sticking with the theory that the events in Jonah are allegorical.

I respect the idea that the events may be literal history, it’s just that I disagree.

the whole key is from where you come... if one holds to Scripture alone as sole authority then Scripture dictates what is and is not allegory. As soon as I feel, or I think enters the mind Scripture has taken a lessor seat of authority. Catholicism hold to ex cathedra, traditions of men, mysticism, Bible cut and paste etc... The Scripture was claimed by God as His Word when The Christ was here to lead us to God... not anything else

2 Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

This pin pointed total in where God Himself through His Word promises us success... a promise you will not see happen within yourself until you make it sole authority from God!

On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 12:11 PM, MeaCulpa3 said:

We might have to agree to disagree. I don’t believe that just because Jesus referenced the story means that it’s actual, literal history. If you do, I respect that, but I disagree. 

The sole authority of Scripture is where the true disagreement comes and that is what you have been steeped in with Catholicism... of course it seems right to you or you wouldn't be there. 

[Mike Mclees]

On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 2:28 PM, MeaCulpa3 said:

Just because Jesus referenced the event does not mean that the event must have really happened. Jesus was merely referencing a story that was well-known to the Jews. Whether the story is literal history or allegory is not affected by Jesus’ referencing it. It’s irrelevant. 

The point of referencing the story is to put an image or idea into the Jews’ heads so they understand, NOT to prove or affirm that the event really happened.

What would it matter if one takes as true ?  Either one believes or they don't believe so the debate is useless

[Blood Bought 1953]

On 8/4/2018 at 5:04 PM, Willie T said:

I find it interesting in all this comparing.... if we read literally, we have to believe that Hell is located in the center of this planet.

 

Why cant it be there?  I believe that is where it is located.....of course I can’t prove it