Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, douggg said:

That is a good observation.

 

 

That's some good rationale... to support that the rapture will take place before the 70th week begins.     But there is the possibility that the rapture may not happen until after the 70th week begins - right up to the day the Antichrist commits the act in 2Thesslaonians2:4, in the early middle part of the 7 years.

 

 

I see your second point as impossible: because God's wrath begins at the 6th seal - before the 70th week begins.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, douggg said:

By "the Tribulation" are you referring to the 7 year 70th week?   Or the part of the 70th week after the abomination of desolation is setup?

It is a gross error to refer to the 7 year 70th week as "the Tribulation" because for most of the first half, the world will not be in tribulation, but will be thinking and saying peace and safety.

As a remedy, a person should be saying the 7 years of the 70th week.   Or the 7 years.     Or the 70th week.    Any of those would be correct, if the person is intending to mean the entire 7 years or that specific period of time..     

Certainly, a good point.

GOOD point! We must agree on terms before we can agree on anything else!  I think most believers compare "the trib" with the 7 years. 

I disagree with your second point.  John wrote in chapter one, "I john in THE tribulation. " The thing is, the "THE" is there in all Greek manuscripts, but no translator has translated it! Go figure!  It seems God and John consider the entire church age as "the tribulation!"

Jesus used both "the tribulation" and "that tribulation." Did he refer to the entire week? I don't think anyone could prove it one way or the other. Neither do I agree on your "peace and safety." That is for pretrib...what people will be saying when the rapture takes place. In fact, it is written on a wall in Europe now.

[iamlamad]

48 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

It was a dream. 

Nobody saw Jesus coming the way he did, even though it was all over the old testament. I think the same thing will happen regarding this Apocaliptic prophesy. 

When I first started studying this stuff, it was all about locusts being helicopters and oil in the middle east, russia, etc. 

I've stopped making predictions about it and just choose to know what scripture says so I'll know it is happening when it happens, assuming I'm alive at that time. One thing's for sure, I will have an end. At least, this body I occupy will. 

I believe that everyone is wrong in serious ways, regarding this stuff.

The truth is, Peter denied three times - and the rooster crowed ONCE. And Jesus then looked at Peter. But then peter went outside the courtyard and denied three more times -  and the rooster crowed again. 

[JoeCanada]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Next, I would like to see where everyone places the start of the Day of the Lord, and WHY. 

 

In Rev 6:12, the sixth seal is opened. There is a great earthquake, sun became black, moon turned to blood.......Rev 13....stars of heaven fell to the earth....Rev 14.....heaven departed like a scroll....Rev 15....Kings, great men, rich men etc..hide in caves, tell mtns to fall on them and hide them from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne....Rev 17...for the great Day of His Wrath is come.

Where do we see this elsewhere in scripture.....

Math 24:29....Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Joel 2:30-31......And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood and fire and pillars of smoke.....the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come

Luke 17:29-30.......But the same day that Lot went out of Sod'om, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all...Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son if Man is revealed

Luke 21:25-28.....And there shall be signs in the sun and in the moon and in the stars, and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring.....Men's hearts failing them for fear; and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven shall be shaken....And then they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.....And when these things begin to pass, then look up, and lift your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh....

What happens on the Day of the Lord....

It will be a day of calamity....a day of wrath....a day of distress and anguish....a day of trouble and ruin....a day of clouds and darkness...a day of fire and brimstone

Isaiah describes a massive leveling; whatever is lofty will be brought low (2:12-170).....there is fear, pain and anguish will grip them(13:8).......Malachai 3:19.. For the Day of the Lord is coming, burning like an oven

How long is the Day of the Lord?

Scripture tells us in Isaiah......34:8....For it is the Day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompense....

                                     61:2....To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn

                                      63:4....For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come

 

Mathew tells us that AFTER the Great Tribulation, there will be a celestial event, Joel confirms the celestial event is BEFORE the Day of the Lord. Luke tells us to lift our heads and look up because the redemption of our bodies is coming after the celestial event. Isaiah tells us how long the Day of the Lord is....... it's one year long!

 "I think it would be far wiser to create a theory from the book "......And that's where the problem comes in. You can create all the theories that you want. Scripture will refute your theories.

 

[iamlamad]

Just now, JoeCanada said:

In Rev 6:12, the sixth seal is opened. There is a great earthquake, sun became black, moon turned to blood.......Rev 13....stars of heaven fell to the earth....Rev 14.....heaven departed like a scroll....Rev 15....Kings, great men, rich men etc..hide in caves, tell mtns to fall on them and hide them from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne....Rev 17...for the great Day of His Wrath is come.

Where do we see this elsewhere in scripture.....

Math 24:29....Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Joel 2:30-31......And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood and fire and pillars of smoke.....the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come

Luke 17:29-30.......But the same day that Lot went out of Sod'om, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all...Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son if Man is revealed

Luke 21:25-28.....And there shall be signs in the sun and in the moon and in the stars, and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring.....Men's hearts failing them for fear; and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven shall be shaken....And then they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.....And when these things begin to pass, then look up, and lift your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh....

What happens on the Day of the Lord....

It will be a day of calamity....a day of wrath....a day of distress and anguish....a day of trouble and ruin....a day of clouds and darkness...a day of fire and brimstone

Isaiah describes a massive leveling; whatever is lofty will be brought low (2:12-170).....there is fear, pain and anguish will grip them(13:8).......Malachai 3:19.. For the Day of the Lord is coming, burning like an oven

How long is the Day of the Lord?

Scripture tells us in Isaiah......34:8....For it is the Day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompense....

                                     61:2....To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn

                                      63:4....For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come

 

Mathew tells us that AFTER the Great Tribulation, there will be a celestial event, Joel confirms the celestial event is BEFORE the Day of the Lord. Luke tells us to lift our heads and look up because the redemption of our bodies is coming after the celestial event. Isaiah tells us how long the Day of the Lord is....... it's one year long!

 "I think it would be far wiser to create a theory from the book "......And that's where the problem comes in. You can create all the theories that you want. Scripture will refute your theories.

 

There is something about Revelation that most readers don't know: in almost all cases, John used Greek Aorist tense verb. These are very strange when compared to English, for a Greek Aorist tense verb shows no timing at all! Whenever an English verb is used, it gives away timing information. Therefore, there can be no exact translation of an Aorist verb.

When John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come" about the best translation we could do is "the day of His wrath" and not add a verb. 

Therefore, when read of His wrath later on in Revelation, I think we can rightly assume that it started at the 6th seal and CONTINUES ON through the entire week.

We all know that a real STAR could not fall to the earth! It must then refer to something else: in one case an angel. 

When we realize that the seals are sealing a document and that document cannot be opened until all seals are opened first, it then becomes impossible for anyone to move any of the seals to a point later on in Revelation. The truth is, when the 7th seal is opened, THE BOOK is opened. The trumpet judgments are what is written inside the book.

The truth is, the signs in the sun and moon will be seen TWICE MORE (at least). Once as a sign for the DAY as seen in Joel 2 and at the 6th seal - where the moon will be seen as red.  Then again the signs will be seen as the sign for His coming as in Rev. 19, in Matthew 24,  and as in Joel 3, but this time neither the sun more the moon will be seen: there will be total darkness. 

I disagree, if the theory comes from the WORD correctly understood, it will be correct. 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I disagree with your second point.  John wrote in chapter one, "I john in THE tribulation. " The thing is, the "THE" is there in all Greek manuscripts, but no translator has translated it! Go figure!  It seems God and John consider the entire church age as "the tribulation!"

No "the" tribulation in Revelation 1:9.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What John wrote goes back to what Jesus said...recorded in the gospel  of  John 16:33

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

[iamlamad]

Just now, douggg said:

No "the" tribulation in Revelation 1:9.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What John wrote goes back to what Jesus said...recorded in the gospel  of  John 16:33

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

As I said - if you had read closer, the "THE" is in all the GREEK manuscripts. Go ahead and look it up!

3588 [e] tē τῇ the Art-DFS

2347 [e] thlipsei θλίψει  , tribulation N-DFS

[douggg]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Douggg would have us believe that the two witnesses showed up way back at the 7th seal,

No, I would not.    The two witnesses begin their testimony and prophesy against the Antichrist when he is anointed the King of Israel (illegitimate) and confirms the covenant with many to begin the 7 years.     In Revelation, that time is when the rider on the white horse, the Antichrist, is given a crown making him the King of Israel (illegitimate), perceived messiah.

Edited August 23, 2018 by douggg

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is something about Revelation that most readers don't know: in almost all cases, John used Greek Aorist tense verb. These are very strange when compared to English, for a Greek Aorist tense verb shows no timing at all! Whenever an English verb is used, it gives away timing information. Therefore, there can be no exact translation of an Aorist verb.

When John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come" about the best translation we could do is "the day of His wrath" and not add a verb. 

Therefore, when read of His wrath later on in Revelation, I think we can rightly assume that it started at the 6th seal and CONTINUES ON through the entire week.

We all know that a real STAR could not fall to the earth! It must then refer to something else: in one case an angel. 

When we realize that the seals are sealing a document and that document cannot be opened until all seals are opened first, it then becomes impossible for anyone to move any of the seals to a point later on in Revelation. The truth is, when the 7th seal is opened, THE BOOK is opened. The trumpet judgments are what is written inside the book.

The truth is, the signs in the sun and moon will be seen TWICE MORE (at least). Once as a sign for the DAY as seen in Joel 2 and at the 6th seal - where the moon will be seen as red.  Then again the signs will be seen as the sign for His coming as in Rev. 19, in Matthew 24,  and as in Joel 3, but this time neither the sun more the moon will be seen: there will be total darkness. 

I disagree, if the theory comes from the WORD correctly understood, it will be correct. 

"Therefore, when read of His wrath later on in Revelation, I think we can rightly assume that it started at the 6th seal and CONTINUES ON through the entire week."

I agree with scripture that the Day of the Lord begins after opening the 6th seal. 

But what I don't agree with is your statement that it "continues on through the entire week"....(being 7 years)

Isaiah says 3 times that the Day of the Lord is ONE YEAR long. That's 3 witnesses in scripture. "In the mouth  of 2 or 3 witnesses let every word be established ".....2 Cor 13:1

So where do you find the 70th week beginning in Rev 6:12 (after)? 

Where do you find the Day of the Lord being 7 years long?

And to your last comment...." if the theory comes from the WORD correctly understood, it will be correct."   I"d say that if the word is correctly understood, one does not then need a theory.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

"Therefore, when read of His wrath later on in Revelation, I think we can rightly assume that it started at the 6th seal and CONTINUES ON through the entire week."

I agree with scripture that the Day of the Lord begins after opening the 6th seal. 

But what I don't agree with is your statement that it "continues on through the entire week"....(being 7 years)

Isaiah says 3 times that the Day of the Lord is ONE YEAR long. That's 3 witnesses in scripture. "In the mouth  of 2 or 3 witnesses let every word be established ".....2 Cor 13:1

So where do you find the 70th week beginning in Rev 6:12 (after)? 

Where do you find the Day of the Lord being 7 years long?

And to your last comment...." if the theory comes from the WORD correctly understood, it will be correct."   I"d say that if the word is correctly understood, one does not then need a theory.

To postulate what one believers Revelation says, does require a theory of what that believer believes the text says and means.

I find the 70th week marked by 7's: the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial.  Probably most would not find this. It is truth anyway. 

Isa 34:8  For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause.

IN CONTEXT this is speaking of the destruction of EDOM.  Is this "day" the "day of the Lord?" That would be very hard to prove!  Is God's wrath on the DAY of His wrath limited to Edom? No, of course not!  Therefore He may very well have OTHER years of retribution for the nations of the world. 

In the Old Testament, God has given us so to speak, and telescope view of something in the future. This view gives us just the barest outline. On the other hand, in the New Testament we may get a MICROscope view, where we see all the details. When then of these two would be the best to learn the details from? OF COURSE the microscope view. Daniel did, indeed, tell us of the 70th week and tell us it would be 7 years, and told us of an event that would divide the week and stop teh daily sacrifices. On the other hand, Revelation has 9 chapters of information on the 70th week. Why then attempt to base doctrine on a telescope view that gives only a fraction of the information?  The truth is, there is no verse that limits His wrath in THE DAY to only one year. 

Isaiah 61:2     to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor and a day of vindication for our God,  to comfort all who mourn,

Isaiah 61:2 is again a telescope view in two or three verses when we have many chapters in the New telling us about the life of Christ. Does this verse REALLY tell us teh DAY OF THE LORD will be only one year? NO! Why not say the DAY will be only one 24 hour day? After all, this verse says A DAY of vindication! Next, is the context of this verse about the "Day of the Lord?" This verse is only ONE VERSE where we have chapters on this in Revelation. Why then attempt to form a doctrine on one verse? there is simply NO WAY to prove this verse is speaking about the length of the Day of the Lord.  I could say the same for your Isa. 63 verse. 

I will therefore say it again:  "" if the theory comes from the WORD correctly understood, it will be correct." 

 

I don't find THE DAY being 7 years. As I read the book, THE DAY includes the 1000 year reign of Christ and perhaps what follows, as in the new heaven and new earth to include the white throne judgment. It is the WEEK that is 7 years long.

Edited August 23, 2018 by iamlamad