Salvation by Grace vs. Works

[Steve_S]

On 10/15/2018 at 9:34 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

We are not in a position to judge anyone who says I Believe...

The flesh has and used to have it's own needs...

The Devil likes your preaching...for a good reason...for a Satanic reason...he may deceive some who believe to convince to stop believing...on account of others critisism who demant a change that does not needed for redemption, ...

The Devil takes the good and the bad who die withvthe denial and 

Jesus takes everyone the good and the bad who die with the faith...

..

Banned from thread.

[discipler777]

On 9/27/2018 at 12:41 PM, LearningToLetGo said:

I accept that man cannot earn God's salvation through works. Instead, man's salvation is a gift that God bestows upon those who accept His son Jesus as their Lord and Savior. But how is accepting Jesus not the ultimate "work?" 

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Galatians 2:14-17 = ¹⁴ But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? ¹⁵ We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, ¹⁶ knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

¹⁷ “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

Hebrews 11:1-4 = By Faith We Understand

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ² For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

³ By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Faith at the Dawn of History

⁴ By faith Abel offered to God ... ⁵ By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, ..., that he pleased God.

⁶ But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Hebrews 12:1-2 = The Race of Faith

1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, ² looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2Timothy 4:6-8 = Paul’s Valedictory

⁶ For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. ⁷ I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. ⁸ Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

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Christians accept Jesus Christ by faith, not by "works" since Christian believers still living on earth are yet to be resurrected/raptured and yet to have everlasting life, eg John3:16 = ¹⁶ For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Without faith in God/Jesus(= the Word), there will be no works, whether works of the Law or fruits/works of the Spirit; instead there will be works of the flesh or sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking which do not please God/Jesus. So, for the saved Christians, faith comes first, then only works/fruits of the Spirit. For salvation, emphasis is on faith, not on works. For rewards or crowns in heaven, emphasis is on the works/fruits of the Spirit that followed faith.

With faith, the fruits or works of the Spirit should follow but Christians are also fallen humans and may not perfect, and they may resist or grieve the Holy Spirit of God by committing sins/evil-deeds, especially small or unintentional or ignorant sins/evil-deeds - 1John 2:1-2. Sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking have corresponding evil consequences, eg 1Corinthians 5:5 & 11:30, 1John 5:16-17, John 5:14, Deut 28:15-68. Hence the chastening of Christians by God at Hebrews 12:5-11, especially immature or "childish" Gentile Christians, eg 1Corinthians 3-6.

Once saved by faith, Christians are to keep the faith until the very end and not lose faith because lost faith = lost salvation. Be like Job who kept the faith and not like his wife who probably lost faith by cursing God and died while suffering for Job's ignorant sin/evil-deed.(Job 2:9)

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Today, the Jews have faith in God to do the works of the Law but they falsely believe that their works of the Law are sufficient to save them from hell, eg did not commit murder, adultery, stealing, idolatry, etc. Problem is, to be truly saved from hell, all humans' inherited Adam's Original Sin has to be first atoned for = atoned by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross as the Lamb of God.(Romans 5:12, John 1:29, Hebrews 9:22, Leviticus 17:11) The Jews did not have faith in Jesus Christ, who is also God(-in-the-flesh or the I AM WHO I AM of Exodus 3:14), as their Saviour.

The Jews of New Testament time rejected Jesus as the Christ/Messiah/Saviour because they wanted one who would militarily defeat the foreign Roman rulers and gift them back their kingdom of earth or Israel.(John 6:15) In 70AD, the Jews lost both the kingdom of earth and kingdom of heaven when the Roman Army destroyed the Holy Temple of God in Jerusalem for armed rebellion - the First Jewish-Roman War.

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P S - 'Salvation by faith in Jesus Christ or Grace, and not by works' can also be carried to the extreme, eg OSAS and the false Hyper-Grace teaching which permits Christians to commit sins wilfully and wantonly(= have the license to sin) without ever losing their salvation since they think they have faith.(Hebrews 10:26-31 says otherwise) Such misguided Christians who actually "go and sin some more" are actually displeasing and testing the limits of Holy God Almighty, and not actually proving their faith to Satan or themselves. Such misguided and sinning Christians will likely end up like the wife of Job, ie probably lost faith and lost their salvation.(Job 2:9)

Edited October 28, 2018 by discipler777

[discipler777]

On 10/25/2018 at 2:39 AM, frienduff thaylorde said:

What I say next might be attacked big time .  it might cause fear .    BUT JESUS SAID IT FIRST . 

HE who denies me I will deny before my Father . 

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2Timothy 1:7-11 = ⁷ For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

Not Ashamed of the Gospel

⁸ Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, ⁹ who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, ¹⁰ but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, ¹¹ to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Matthew 10:16-20 & 32-33 = Persecutions Are Coming

¹⁶ “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. ¹⁷ But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. ¹⁸ You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. ¹⁹ But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; ²⁰ for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. ...

Confess Christ Before Men

³² “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. ³³ But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

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Matthew 10, in its proper context, says that the "denying of Jesus Christ" happened during times of persecution and tribulation. Those Christians who publicly deny Jesus Christ(= the work of the flesh) are not saved because they renounce their faith in Christ during times of persecution and tribulation or they stop believing in Him. Lost faith leads to the works of the flesh = denying Christ, in order to escape persecution and/or to save their lives, but they lose eternal life or salvation.

According to Revelation 13:11-18 & 14:9-11, a similar time of persecution and tribulation is coming soon when Christians will be persecuted/prosecuted/martyred for refusing to accept the "mark of the beast" on their foreheads and right hand for buying and selling.(= computer chip implants.?) Some misguided Christians may deny Christ and accept the mark, in order to avoid being persecuted/martyred.

Presenting the truth about "denying Christ" happening only during times of persecution and tribulation will put many Christians' fears at rest, and instill faith and confidence. Why spread unnecessary and unfounded fears.?

Edited October 28, 2018 by discipler777

[enoob57]

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 2:08 PM, Butero said:

Let's see what it says in Titus 3:5.  Does it say, "Ye shall not refer to James when speaking of salvation?"  No.  It says, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."  I could simply say that anyone that uses this verse to refer to salvation is violating James, but that is pitting scripture against scripture, which is not necessary.  

What is necessary is a sound hermeneutic principle set forth in Scripture

Isa 28:9-10

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
KJV

It is understanding that the whole council of God Genesis-Revelation must be examined in every way to arrive at the Bibles Thus Sayeth The Lord... it is work and diligence and the prize is knowing The Lord and The Lord knowing you... those who rely on works ignore completely this passage

Matt 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV

If they did they would reconsider the works issue!

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 8:41 PM, Butero said:

That is one possibility.  Another is that Titus is not speaking of salvation, and we know that because salvation is of works.  That type of logic doesn't work.  

Real salvation will result in good works.  Real faith will cause people to have a change in their lifestyle.  Not all faith is saving faith.  There are many who believe in Jesus that are not saved.  

Titus 3:4-7

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
KJV
This is so pin pointed to the salvation that God has provided I don't see how it could be convoluted to something other without ignoring fundamental laws of grammar... thus if any aspect of your foundation is upon works toward salvation can it be that which Jesus' brought(?) this is parenthetical question because the answer is self evident NO! 

Edited October 28, 2018 by enoob57

[JohnD]

On 9/26/2018 at 11:41 PM, LearningToLetGo said:

I accept that man cannot earn God's salvation through works. Instead, man's salvation is a gift that God bestows upon those who accept His son Jesus as their Lord and Savior. But how is accepting Jesus not the ultimate "work?" 

It is a work... a work of God.

We are his workmanship (Ephesians 2:10).

1 John 2:18–20 (AV)
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

That even our faith is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8).

We make a choice, but that is not a work.

What confuses most in the faith is how organized religion flourishes on guilt tripping congregations depriving them of the freedom and peace and ease that is Christ.

Much of it comes from the unbiblical division of clergy / laity (which comes from the Old Testament post Exodus 32... until then God originally intended Israel to be a nation of priests see Exodus 19:6)... but Christian clergy cannot lord it over Christian congregations by teaching Revelation 1:6 / Revelation 5:10 / 1 Peter 2:3-9 to them now could they?

Another sneaky tactic is not emphasizing the New Testament began when Christ died on the cross (Hebrews 9:16-17 / Luke 22:20 / 1 Corinthians 11:25). This way Christians can be beaten over the head with the Sermon on the Mount, renewed calls to tithe, etc. The events of Jesus' life were in Old Testament times despite the Gospel accounts being in the New Testament division of the Bible. 

There are consequences in this life whether or not one is a believer... but eternal salvation is believing Jesus Christ.

Edited October 28, 2018 by JohnD

[discipler777]

On 10/16/2018 at 9:41 AM, Butero said:

There are many who believe in Jesus that are not saved.  

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This statement is against the promises of Scripture or the Word of God ... John 3:16 = ¹⁶ For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

[discipler777]

On 9/27/2018 at 12:41 PM, LearningToLetGo said:

I accept that man cannot earn God's salvation through works. Instead, man's salvation is a gift that God bestows upon those who accept His son Jesus as their Lord and Savior. But how is accepting Jesus not the ultimate "work?" 

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Romans 5:18-19 = ¹⁸ Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. ¹⁹ For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

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Salvation is accepting by faith the completed acts/works of Jesus Christ on the Cross. None of our good works before or after being saved could save us from hell.

Otoh, after being saved, wilful or ignorant sins or evil works may cause Christians to lose their salvation by losing faith in Christ.(1Cor 5:1-5) Hence, Christians should keep the faith right until the very end whether or not they have good works/fruits or evil works of ignorance or wilfulness, eg Christians who are mentally-disabled, physically-disabled, alcoholics, drug-addicts, HIV+ sufferers, who have been misled by false doctrines, etc.

[frienduff thaylorde]

4 hours ago, discipler777 said:

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This statement is against the promises of Scripture or the Word of God ... John 3:16 = ¹⁶ For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Well then lets put what butero said to the test .    Tell you what ,  since I know of my own testimony , I will use that .

FOR YEARS ,   YEARS I believed in JESUS yet walked in darkness.     I WAS MOUTH ONLY and lived in darkness .     YES even the devils and men like me could believe ,

BUT DID I FOLLOW HIM , WAS I REALLY FROM THE HEART BELIEVING IN HIM .   NOPE .     BUT PRAISE BE TO GOD ,   HE DID call me out of darkness

and changed me and put real faith in my heart IN CHRIST .     YE shall KNOW THEM how ..............................BY THIER FRUITS ,

NOT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ME LORD < LORD ...................REMEMBER THAT .   so lets not unrightly divide text , lets teach the whole rightly divided truth .

Now ,   LET that encourage you .   And throw those hands up and praise THE LORD . 

On that note let me leave us with THE TRUE KINGS REMINDER .

FOR many will say to me IN that day ,  LORD did we not prophesy ..........IN YOUR NAME

    and cast out demons ..................................................................................IN YOUR NAME

and do many good works ...............................................................................IN YOUR NAME .

And HE will say , I NEVER KNEW YOU , you WHO WORKED INQUITY .

DO take heed to WHOSE NAME THESE WERE ALSO USING .       I know we wont find this in rick warrens evangelism ONE O ONE nor ROMES

nor the emergents .   BUT JESUS SAID IT ,  I BELIEVE IT . 

Edited October 28, 2018 by frienduff thaylorde

[OldCoot]

On 9/26/2018 at 11:41 PM, LearningToLetGo said:

I accept that man cannot earn God's salvation through works. Instead, man's salvation is a gift that God bestows upon those who accept His son Jesus as their Lord and Savior. But how is accepting Jesus not the ultimate "work?" 

Maybe looking at this from a different angle helps.

If I think that the speed of light is infinite, then find out it actually has a limited speed, and because of learning that I then change my mind, is that change considered a work or a mental response?

Repentance is simply changing one's mind about who Jesus is.  It is an acknowledgement of the truth of who He is and trusting in Him for redemption.  Just that simple.  No work, just a simple acknowledgement of who He is and trusting in Him. 

[discipler777]

19 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Well then lets put what butero said to the test .    Tell you what ,  since I know of my own testimony , I will use that .

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2Timothy 3:16-17 = ¹⁶ All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, ¹⁷ that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Hebrews 4:12-13 = 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

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Christians should use Scripture or the Word of God for doctrinal proofs, and not subjective personal testimonies.