When do Revelations seals open

[Marilyn C]

28 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Of course I disagree.

Hi iamlamad,

So what is the Lord doing on the Father`s throne?  He is interceding as High priest.

`We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected and not man.` (Heb. 8: 1 & 2)

`...since He ever lives to make intercession for them..` (Heb. 7: 25)

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

2 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

So what is the Lord doing on the Father`s throne?  He is interceding as High priest.

`We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected and not man.` (Heb. 8: 1 & 2)

`...since He ever lives to make intercession for them..` (Heb. 7: 25)

Marilyn.

Sorry, but "the Lord [Jesus Christ] went to be at the right hand of the Father. It is the FATHER seen on the throne in Rev. 4, and Jesus is NOT SEEN at his right hand. This should TELL you something. 

First, Jesus spoke this to me:  “I will ask you three questions. Until you can answer them correctly you will never understand this part of John’s vision.”

Then, Jesus spoke this to me:  “I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are many verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. The first question then, why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four?”

Marilyn, I had not answer! This is one of three questions He asked me.

Edited March 1, 2019 by iamlamad

[Marilyn C]

Hi iamlamad,

Rev. 4 is the second vision of the Son of Man as He is Enthoned in the heavenly realms. The throne is set up by the Father (Rev. 4: 2 `behold, a throne SET in heaven,..`  for the Father appoints His Son as King, (Ps, 2: 6 `..I have set My King on my holy hill of Zion.` )

Jesus is identified on the throne with the Father - `...in the midst of the throne....` (Rev. 5: 6)

And that is the closest we get to ever `seeing` the Godhead, (Father, Son and 7 fold Spirit of God).

The Thronal authority is described in beautiful symbolic detail –

(Jewels – Ex. 28: 17 – 21  Tribes – Num. 2)

 

Conqueror – jasper (for Naphtali, Gen: 30:8) meaning to gain the victory, to conquer.

Power & Dominion – sardius (for Judah, Gen. 29: 35) meaning to use the hand, indicating power & dominion.

Heir – emerald, (for Reuben, Gen. 29: 32) meaning see a son – first born.

Covenant – rainbow, (Gen. 9: 13)

Administration – four living creatures, lion (King), calf (sacrifice, heir) man (mediator), eagle (deity).

 

Marilyn.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi iamlamad,

So where was Jesus?  `...in the midst of the throne....` (Rev. 5: 6)

[Spock]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I completely disagree. Rev. 12 makes no mention of any planets around Virgo. It is about Christ's birth, and has nothing to do with the church.  Jesus CHOSE to show John what the dragon did when He was a young child.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one brother. To me that WAS A GREAT SIGN given to the church!  Be watching church, I am coming very soon! 

Im surprised you merely think it was a HISTORY lesson given by Jesus. After all brother, it is given in the book of REVELATION. From chapters 6-22 we are not talking about history anymore. 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Spock

[iamlamad]

15 minutes ago, Spock said:

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one brother. To me that WAS A GREAT SIGN given to the church!  Be watching church, I am coming very soon! 

Im surprised you merely think it was a HISTORY lesson given by Jesus. After all brother, it is given in the book of REVELATION. From chapters 6-22 we are not talking about history anymore. 

Jesus' words to me:

“Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

So I counted, 32 times. I replied, “I see that this chapter is about the dragon. I counted 32 times.” I don’t know if I was “in the spirit” at this time.

He spoke again.

“I also chose to show John how the dragon attempted to kill me as a child. Those first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John.”

 

This gives us the PRIMARY meaning of Rev. 12:1-5. Jesus introduced John to the dragon, and especially what the dragon would be doing during the second half of the week. (Chapter 12 is a midpoint chapter.) It seems, while Jesus was showing John the dragon, He made a decision to show John more about the dragon - How the dragon tried to kill Him as a young child.

I heard a preacher once day, "according to the law of second meanings..." I don't know if there IS such a "law." Perhaps these verses do have a second meaning. If so, I can't think of any meaning that would fit for today. 

Finally, remember, I was confused on chapters 4 & 5, and could not answer any of His questions. He SENT ME to chapter 12, just to learn "history lesson." Therefore I am not movable on this issue: those first 5 verses were history for John - about Jesus' birth. Of course you are free to disagree and be wrong!

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

Rev. 4 is the second vision of the Son of Man as He is Enthoned in the heavenly realms. The throne is set up by the Father (Rev. 4: 2 `behold, a throne SET in heaven,..`  for the Father appoints His Son as King, (Ps, 2: 6 `..I have set My King on my holy hill of Zion.` )

Jesus is identified on the throne with the Father - `...in the midst of the throne....` (Rev. 5: 6)

And that is the closest we get to ever `seeing` the Godhead, (Father, Son and 7 fold Spirit of God).

The Thronal authority is described in beautiful symbolic detail –

(Jewels – Ex. 28: 17 – 21  Tribes – Num. 2)

 

Conqueror – jasper (for Naphtali, Gen: 30:8) meaning to gain the victory, to conquer.

Power & Dominion – sardius (for Judah, Gen. 29: 35) meaning to use the hand, indicating power & dominion.

Heir – emerald, (for Reuben, Gen. 29: 32) meaning see a son – first born.

Covenant – rainbow, (Gen. 9: 13)

Administration – four living creatures, lion (King), calf (sacrifice, heir) man (mediator), eagle (deity).

 

Marilyn. 

 

Sorry, but I go only by what is written. It is a fact, Stephen SAW Jesus at the right hand of the Father.

It is also a fact, John, in this vision in chapter 4, DID NOT see Jesus at the right hand of the Father

Jesus' words to me:

I asked the Father to show me in these chapters proof that the first seals were NOT in the 70th week. (He had previously shown me that the 0th week would not begin until the 7th seal.) I studied these chapters for a few weeks, and finally got stuck on John weeping much. (It was the Holy Spirit, not me.) I could not seem to get away from that. I asked God why we needed to know that John wept, and why much?

Finally He spoke and said only

“It shows timing.”

I heard His voice again, but this time recognized it was in my spirit. I studied these chapters another couple of weeks, and could not find “timing” anywhere, so was frequently bugging God. Finally He spoke again and said,

“it also show the movement of time.”

I studied diligently, but I could not find any “movement of time” anywhere! Finally God had mercy on me and spoke again:

“I will ask you three questions. Until you can answer them correctly you will never understand this part of John’s vision.”

Then He asked me three questions, and told me that until I could answer these three questions correctly I would never understand His intentions on this part of John’s vision or visions.

Here are His 3 questions:

1. “I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are many verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. The first question then, why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four?”

As before, when He spoke, I was “in the spirit” and could not answer by thinking an answer and speaking, but my spirit man answered, “I cannot answer that question.” Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to break the seals, a search that end in failure, and that is the very reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

 Again my spirit man answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Again my spirit man said that I could not answer His question. He did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking, and bugging God for help.

Finally, after several weeks of in depth study, hours each day, He spoke again and sent me to chapter 12. Why chapter 12? He gave me a synopsis of chapter 12, but told me the first 5 verses were a "history lesson" for John - about His birth and how the Dragon had tried to kill Him as a young child. 

Once I had "History lesson" in my mind, He said I could go back and study chapters 4 & 5. With "history lesson" on my mind, I had the answer to all His questions in a few minutes! That vision in chapter 4 & 5 was a vision of John's past: he was seeing the throne room while Christ was on earth.

Now, Marilyn, you can certainly disagree with the head of the church - if you choose. It is up to you. 

[Revelation Man]

On 9/30/2018 at 11:52 AM, JoeCanada said:

When do Revelation’s Seals open? The majority of Christians believe it is during the 70th Week of Daniel, but a minority believe it happens prior to that time. Some even believe they have already been opened.

There isn’t a prophecy that gives us this information with 100% certainty, but there are several key prophecies that let us know which theory is correct with relative certainty. I believe this may be the only available published analysis of this crucial topic-when do revelation’s seals open?

Event One: Deception by False Messiahs

Bible commentators have long recognized that the events in Matt. 24:4-30 are directly parallel to the first six seals of Revelation (Rev. 6:1-17). This exact parallel is presented in the following table from the book Revelation Deciphered:

Sign	Pattern of Seven Events	Matt. 24	Rev. 6
Event One	Deception by False Messiahs	vv. 4–5, 23–26	vv. 1–2
Event Two	War, Bloodshed, and Chaos	vv. 6–7	vv. 3–4
Event Three	Famine and Economic Collapse	v. 7	vv. 5–6
Event Four	Abomination and Death	v. 9, 15–21	vv. 7–8
Event Five	Martyrdom and Apostasy	vv. 9–14	vv. 9–11
Event Six	Celestial Earthly Disturbance	v. 29	vv. 12–17

The first of these events is Deception by False Messiahs. This event is summarized by the two parallel passages:

See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not go after them. (Luke 21:8)

Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come.” I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer. (Rev. 6:1-2)

From the table, we can assume these passages are discussing the same spiritual deception that is initiated with the opening of the first seal.

However, in English, the first seal (in Revelation) doesn’t appear to be a spiritual deception at all. One reason is there is a misconception about the translated words “conquering and to conquer.” The poor English translation leads one to imagine military action, but the actual Greek word that “conquering and to conquer” is based on is NIKAO which means to overcome as in “overcome evil with good,” or “I have overcome the world.” In the New Testament it always refers to a spiritual overcoming not a military one. Proper translation changes everything.

The one who rides the white horse is attempting to overcome partly by “looking like Jesus.” That is why in Luke, Jesus says directly that this deceiver claims “I am He.” In Revelation, symbols are used to convey this thought. Both Jesus and this rider ride white horses (Jesus in Rev. 19:11). Both wear crowns, but Jesus’s crown is a kingly crown, this one is a victors crown. And, as we see, both are overcomers; one for good and one for evil. Who is it who attempts to look like Jesus and spiritually deceive his followers? The Antichrist and False Prophet, of course.

That leaves the symbol of the “bow.” Many have theorized what this bow without arrows is all about.  Some have claimed it might be missiles without warheads as in an illusion to Saddam Hussein-in other words symbolizing weapons that aren’t there. Most, however, claim it is an illusion to a false peace treaty.

This later theory can actually be substantiated biblically. As we perform exegisis on a biblical symbol, the first use of that symbol in the bible is what the symbol means from that point on. This is called the law of primacy. The first use of “bow” is shocking:

I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth. (Gen. 9:13)

Genesis tells us that “bow” without arrows signifies a covenant. God’s covenant in Genesis 9:13 was a world wide peace covenant between our Lord and the inhabitants of the earth in that he would no longer flood the earth. In Rev. 6:2, the “bow” symbolizes a covenant that most likely will be the Covenant with the many- the peace treaty that initiates the 70th Week of Daniel! This is fairly direct evidence that the seals most likely opening during the 70th Week (upon the Covenant with the Many) not before.

Going down the wrong road always leads one off course.  The Rev. 6 events have nothing to do with Matthew 24, at least not until one gets to Matt. 24:15, anything before that is not about the End Times, and the clues tell us this, but it's hard to unregister things registered in the recesses of our minds. The clues tell us this, but people ignore what they don't want to see. For instance, Jesus tells the Disciples in verse 9 that they will be delivered up to be killed, yet you guys who believe these are the "LAST DAYS/Sorrows of Tribulation" have to discount that fact altogether because it doesn't jibe with the timing you are putting forth. "SORROWS/Birth pangs" birth something, they are not the "BABY" so the Sorrows are the start of the pangs, not the end result. So verse 8 can never be in the "End Times" either !! Thus verses 6 and 7 can't be end time, and especially when we understand verse 9 is about the Disciples, so nothing FITS except some old belief we refuse to examine thoroughly. 

The "False Prophets" in verse 11 are not THE FALSE PROPHET & FALSE CHRIST of Matt. 24:24, just like the fake christs of verse 5 is not about verse 24. They are mentioning three distinct time periods. Understanding these time periods is essential to understanding Matt. 24. This is why we get the false assumptions the Sals have been opened, people just can't get the facts straight, IMHO, this is how Satan attacks, via half truths. He loves to divide via deception. Matt. 24:23–26 indeed is the Rev. 13 Beast and False Prophet, but verses 4-5 ARE NOT, thus you are leading the masses {masses who believe this} down a wrong by mixing these two as one event, they ARE NOT, the Disciples get Martyred in verse 9 !! Why try to make verses 4 and 5 the end times when you know this fact ? 

Again, verses  6 and 7 have nothing to do with Rev.  6, or verses 3-4, its about "BIRTH PANGS" which come BEFORE THE BABY !! Verse 8 tells us that, yet you guys have verses 6 and 7 as end times. It just doesn't add up. Event 3 also doesn't add up, it is not verse 7, again, the BIRTH PANGS deliver the BABY. The AoD is not ONE EVENT per se, it's about the False Prophet placing an Image of the Beast in the Temple, that happens in Rev. 13, which happens before the Anti-Christ Conquers Israel at the 1260 the AoD happens 30 days before at the 1290. Matt. 24:9-14 have nothing to do with the 5th Seal.

Event 6 is the only part of the chart that is 100 percent correct, The rest is just not true, all because it takes similar events and tries to force a timing that does not match.

In Matt. 24 Jesus tells about a Temple that will be destroyed and a city that will be sacked. Thus when they ask Jesus the question of when will these things be, the first question he answers is about the Temple !! Thus the FALSE CHRISTS of verse 4 and 5 have ZERO to do with Matt. 24:24, it is a totally different time frame. This fulfills John 5:43, where Jesus told the Pharisees they would not accept him when he came in God's name, but they would accept another who came in their own name !! The Pharisees rightly saw the Scriptures pointed to Rome a the Fourth Beast, thus they tried to FORCE Messiah onto the scene, who they to this day see as a Political figure, they never saw the coming Messiah as the Son of God !! Do you guys realize that aspect ? That is why Judas wanted Jesus to FIGHT !! It is why Peter wanted to Fight, they were misinformed, Jesus had to reprogram them, my Kingdom is not of this world !! So the Pharisees put forth different "political messiahs" whom they thought would SAVE THEM as a great leader. So the verses 4 and 5 have nothing to do with Matt. 24:24, its about the fake christs put forth before the Temple is destroyed, then Jesus tells them, HEY, YOU {DISCIPLES} will hear of wars and rumours of war, but don't be TROUBLED {DISCIPLES} for these things have to come to pass, but the END IS NOT YET or is BY AND BY. He is telling the Disciples, this IS NOT the Zechariah 14 events, even though 70 AD will look like it, the END is by and by. So he just explained the Temples DESTRUCTION TIMING unto the Disciples !! 

Jesus then goes into the 2000 some odd year Church Age Period and gives an OVERALL PICTURE of this time period, it will be like BIRTH PANGS, things will get worse and worse until the Times of Troubles is upon the world. So their will be Wars via Nations vs. Nations and Kings vs. Kings, this REAFFIRMED to the Disciples that the 70 AD event WAS NOT THE END !! Right ? That was Jesus' reasoning here, here the ed will be BY AND BY.....See here, there will be more wars, many more wars before the end !! But you guys that believe this stuff is end times, just skop over all the real clues. Jesus give us a litany of clues then about the things that lead up to the End Times Troubles, the Wars, Pestilences, Famines, that get worse and worse. He then explains to the Disciples they will be murdered/MARTYRED, during this Church Age Period, MANY FALSE PROPHETS/TEACHERS/PREACHERS shall arise and we know many of these men, Robert Tilton, David Koresh, Jim Jones etc. etc. etc. AGAIN, this has nothing to do with Matt. 24:24, this is all about the Church Age Tribulation leading up to the "BABY/Time of Troubles like never before". 

Verses 12 and 13 are misconstrued. The Love of many will indeed wax cold, and colder, and colder. and colder, but we had bloodthirsty tyrant 1500 years ago, 1000 years ago and 500 years ago also, and those who ENDURE TILL THE END in verse 13 means unto the end of one's life !! Not until the End of time per se. Jesus is speaking about the Church Age that BIRTHS the Times of Troubles. Then in verse 14, Jesus then tells us, the Gospel must be Preached unto all the world, then the end will come, as in the Times of Troubles.............THEN we see the AoD spoken of in verse 15. 

So we have verses 4-6 about the Temple TIME PERIOD.............We have verses 7-14 about the Church Age Time Period..........then we have verses 15-31 about the 70th Week Time Period. 

But that chart is not a factual chart at all.

[Spock]

On 10/3/2018 at 12:25 AM, Heb 13:8 said:

Thank you for trying to tackle such a mysterious subject. You are commended Joe. I wrote this to a friend..

"If there's peace and safety (1 Thess 5:3) in the first 3.5 years for Israel then where do the first 6 seals land? The moon turning blood red in the 6th seal vs the moon not giving its light in Matt 24 could be on two different time lines, two different kinds of eclipses. That means the 6th seal would have to come to pass around mid trib. Could the first 5 seals be for the Gentiles and the world and not for Israel?"

Good post 13:8. Clap clap

i too am always looking aT possibilities. I try not to close myself up to other thoughts because that would make me arrogant and already possessing all knowledge.....which I know can’t be so.

So, like you, I am thinking that the 6th seal either is right at the midpoint of the week or possibly even at the end....in other words, this ushers in the second coming to the planet of Jesus. 

However, to take that line of thinking, I think you would have to place the trumpets inside the seals, probably starting at midpoint on, and then place the bowls inside the trumpets on your timeline, startimg at the very end of the week, like the last month. 

I believe Marilyn proposed this timeline which at that time didn’t connect with me, but I am now ready to hear it and test it with scripture. 

The seals are different than the trumpets and bowls with Jesus opening them, not angels,  so maybe they are not all consecutive and maybe there is an overlapping. 

Anyhow, I’m listening to all thoughts on this matter, pro or con. 

Thanks.

spock

[simplejeff]

On 9/30/2018 at 11:52 AM, JoeCanada said:

( I'm submitting this article by Nelson Walters from  "the Gospel in the End Times".  It's a bit lengthy, but it's a great perspective )

Hmmm.....    doesn't the article, or the author, (like most readers here?)   assume the seals have not been accomplished/open already ?   As if the Messiah Yahushua could not have returned in the lifetime of the Apostles and disciples in the New Testament ?