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R. Hartono

Rapture means the wise virgins taken to the feast alive, tribulation means foolish virgins left and yell.

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34 minutes ago, Jostler said:

My implication is that NONE have been or ever will be taken to heaven without first laying this body  down in death.

 

Elijah was taken alive.

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4 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Elijah was taken alive.

He was :)  So if all men are appointed once to die when will he make that transition?  Which heaven was he translated to?

Quote
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Enoch is another one.  Subtle questions whose answers matter a great deal.

Edit to add:  Any assumption that either  of those two men has ever been presented before His throne in the 3rd heaven, absent any evidence, remains just that.  An assumption.  There is another answer possible that does not violate the whole counsel of the Word.

Edited by Jostler

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2 hours ago, Jostler said:

My implication is that NONE have been or ever will be taken to heaven without first laying this body  down in death.  That was the assumption behind my questioning the assertion that the virgins are taken alive to heaven.

 

Hi Jostler,

Okay, so you don't believe (or are wondering were the Bible says) there is a "pre-trib"/ or "pre-wrath" rapture and Christians MUST go through (or die during) the final 'judgments' right before the 2nd coming? 

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4 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Hi Jostler,

Okay, so you don't believe (or are wondering were the Bible says) there is a "pre-trib"/ or "pre-wrath" rapture and Christians MUST go through (or die during) the final 'judgments' right before the 2nd coming? 

Brother can you rephrase and clarify that for me?  I'm honestly unable to discern what you're actually asking me the way  its phrased there.

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On 2/2/2019 at 11:30 PM, Jostler said:

that's not even related to the  pretty simple question I asked.  If it is appointed unto man once to die, that is speaking of a physical death because Jesus has made a way to escape the second death.  Not all will experience that one.  The BIBLE is referring to the body when it speaks of the first death, so pardon me if I just tag along where the Bible takes me.

4 hours ago, Jostler said:
4 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Elijah was taken alive.

He was :)  So if all men are appointed once to die when will he make that transition?  Which heaven was he translated to?

I think you are trying to prove too much by the single verse, "it is appointed unto men once to die."

I see no reason why God can't make exceptions to this norm if and when He so chooses. Such as with Enoch, for example, about whom much is said in ancient Hebraic records about his heavenly exaltation.

This statement by Paul, taken as literally as the one you quote, says just the opposite to it: "We shall not all sleep..." 1 Cor. 15:51

 

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6 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

I think you are trying to prove too much by the single verse, "it is appointed unto men once to die."

I see no reason why God can't make exceptions to this norm if and when He so chooses. Such as with Enoch, for example, about whom much is said in ancient Hebraic records about his heavenly exaltation.

This statement by Paul, taken as literally as the one you quote, says just the opposite to it: "We shall not all sleep..." 1 Cor. 15:51

 

Man :)   lol, this is not an easy topic to get all the cards on the table quickly or all at once.  If death is strictly and exclusively equated to sleep, I can see the point you're making.  But my understanding of physical death is that it's primary function is to kill off this body.  It doesn't necessarily mean conscious awareness is lost.  And obviously for those at the final resurrection in the verse you just mentioned, the transition is so fast it's going to be less than an eyeblink between old body and new.

I have learnt to LOVE seeing apparent contradictions in the Word because I know that I know there really aren't any.  I've sought Him for resolution of several and been answered every time and every time I learnt something powerful.

The old "soul sleep" vs. "absent from the body = presence with the Lord" controversy  is one of them.  The Bible speaks clearly of both.  So which is it?  :)  I'm not sure if I have the words necessary to clearly expound on how He resolved that question for me, but I have an answer.

"Lord? Which is it??  Do we enter an unconscious state at death or are we quickly (instantly?) conscious of being present with You when we die?"

That's what I asked.....but His answer will take some 'splainin' :)

His answer was "YES!"

:)  i'll pray about  how to expound on that and if He gives me liberty  I'll come back and have a go at it :)  It has to do with the nature of time, and whose perspective you're speaking from, a perspective from here on earth or a perspective from heaven.   Quite a bit of ground to cover.....

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16 minutes ago, Jostler said:

Brother can you rephrase and clarify that for me?  I'm honestly unable to discern what you're actually asking me the way  its phrased there.

It sounds to me like you are saying there is NO rapture because everyone must die first BEFORE going to heaven and receiving their imperishable body? 

To me the question revolves around what is the "hope" that we have in Christ. Then, likewise, what does Scripture mean when it says "blessed hope"? I would say they are different and that the blessed hope is attached to the rapture and the reward of NOT having to "go through" the final tribulation period. If the 69.5 weeks of Daniel were completed at the cross and Jesus was raised, then a rapture event for those who are truly "in Him" can be associated with Jesus being raised to heaven as the two bookends of the Church Age. It also serves as the "sealed" part of the 70 weeks prophecy where we see the prophecy being interrupted by the Church Age. The "last" (Christians) go to heaven BEFORE the "first" (Jews who accept Jesus).

Of course, if you are post-trib or Post Millennial, then you must insist on the blessed hope meaning the same thing as "hope" as you will insist that there is no pre-trib (or pre-wrath) rapture. 

As to the FLESH and SPIRIT parts of all this ... 1 Cor. 15:39 - onward explains it pretty clearly.

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On 1/31/2019 at 8:59 PM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Greetings,

Have you ever thought that maybe the 5th seal happens right BEFORE the rapture?

The entire Church Age has always and still is today seeing Christians being killed and persecuted for their faith in Jesus. Notice the door is SHUT at the rapture and NOT opened as many claim. This faulty assumption happens because of incorrect interpretation of the "seals" in Revelation. When they are viewed as the seals of the 70 weeks prophecy being removed throughout the Church Age, you should be able to uncover minute details throughout Revelation that prove this "theory". However, in a nutshell, the first seal is the START of the Church Age (the door to heaven is opened by Jesus), the second - Islam, third - Catholicism, 4th - 'mixed colors' or Confusion (universalism), 5th - the impatient martyrs, 6th - rapture, 7th - 2nd coming. When the seals are off Israel's blindness is removed and they will finally accept and welcome Jesus as the Messiah.

We must stop pulling verses out of their context!

Go back and study chapters 4 & 5, for they are the context of the first seals. They show us TIMING and the movement of time. The question is, WHEN? It is not that difficult: in chapter 5 John saw the moment Jesus ascended, and sent the Holy Spirit down, so circa 32 AD. You cannot find 2000 years hidden there anywhere. When John gets to the first seal, the timing is till 32 AD - when the church was sent out with the gospel. Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. John does not get to our future until seal 6: the start of judgment. the rapture will come before seal 6.

SEals 2 -4 are the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God limited them to 1/4 of the earth...that 1/4 centered on Jerusalem. That would include Europe and Africa, plus the Middle East. Where did two world wars start? Europe. Where did the black plague hit twice - each time killing around 1/3? Europe. Which continent has had countless famines in past few hundred years? Africa.

Edited by iamlamad

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3 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

It sounds to me like you are saying there is NO rapture because everyone must die first BEFORE going to heaven and receiving their imperishable body? 

To me the question revolves around what is the "hope" that we have in Christ. Then, likewise, what does Scripture mean when it says "blessed hope"? I would say they are different and that the blessed hope is attached to the rapture and the reward of NOT having to "go through" the final tribulation period. If the 69.5 weeks of Daniel were completed at the cross and Jesus was raised, then a rapture event for those who are truly "in Him" can be associated with Jesus being raised to heaven as the two bookends of the Church Age. It also serves as the "sealed" part of the 70 weeks prophecy where we see the prophecy being interrupted by the Church Age. The "last" (Christians) go to heaven BEFORE the "first" (Jews who accept Jesus).

Of course, if you are post-trib or Post Millennial, then you must insist on the blessed hope meaning the same thing as "hope" as you will insist that there is no pre-trib (or pre-wrath) rapture. 

As to the FLESH and SPIRIT parts of all this ... 1 Cor. 15:39 - onward explains it pretty clearly.

The blessed hope is the resurrection 

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2 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

The blessed hope is the resurrection 

Resurrection is for the deceased but there must come the time when God's mercy is finished and the end times living people must be judged, taken or left behind for the antichrist.

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